Does anyone know the logic behind taping down the keys on an organ. I'm talking in really simple terms, i.e. is it to provide an underlying tone which can be played over making new sounds + 'textures' (sorry), etc, or some other reason?
I'm obviously basing this on Kate Radley's old taping habits. I can't see how it could be down to laziness as as far as I know it's quite hard to change chord when the keys are taped down. Well it is when I've tried it anyway.
Some of the other records featuring taping 'experiements' I've heard have been to take advantage of the shit-ness of cheap organs, so that the sound gradually morphs into slightly off-key sounds. But again this doesn't sound like that good-a reason to do it reguarly.
And can it fuck the things up?
Taping down keys
Moderators: sunny, BzaInSpace, runcible, spzretent
Sorry, the bit about changing chords was a joke (!) 
But the rest makes sense, I guess. I think my main confusion was why Kate Radley would ever tape em down, as every Spz song that comes to mind has a least (normally only) two chords, hence, taping becomes a no-go.
Any more insights appreiciated though!
But the rest makes sense, I guess. I think my main confusion was why Kate Radley would ever tape em down, as every Spz song that comes to mind has a least (normally only) two chords, hence, taping becomes a no-go.
Any more insights appreiciated though!
-
sly saxon
- Known user
- Posts: 256
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
- Location: where everybody knows your name
...but two (or even 3) different chords can have more than one of the same note in 'em...so you could tape keys down AND play different chords.
Of course, if you had more than one organ, with different chords taped down on each, and play a sequence by switching the organs on and off in sequence...
Of course, if you had more than one organ, with different chords taped down on each, and play a sequence by switching the organs on and off in sequence...
It's all happening!
-
twentysixdollars
- Known user
- Posts: 1319
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
- Location: United States
- Contact:
Exactly, sly. On something like Medication, Kate probably wanted her hands free to play the little G-A-B-C riff. So I would guess that a G note was taped down in the bass since it's in both G & C. On most Spacemen/Spiritualized tape-downs it would be for a one-chord tune (Take Your Time, Suicide - in which case they'd tape down a first and a fifth) or a two chord tune with a bass drone. Well, I suppose these constitute guesses, but it's pretty intuitive.
-
Ian Goodchild
- Known user
- Posts: 56
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
- Location: Northampton, England
To add to....
Exactly, sly. On something like Medication, Kate probably wanted her hands free to play the little G-A-B-C riff. So I would guess that a G note was taped down in the bass since it's in both G & C. On most Spacemen/Spiritualized tape-downs it would be for a one-chord tune (Take Your Time, Suicide - in which case they'd tape down a first and a fifth) or a two chord tune with a bass drone. Well, I suppose these constitute guesses, but it's pretty intuitive.[quote]
Well, I've got to disagree with you on that, $26 - but....er....Hey, no I don't - I agree with all of that. Is this the fucking 'Twilight Zone'?
Anyway, 'Suicide' (see end of post for interesting footnote on this song) is the best example of this 'technique': Sonic tapes down the keys, and adds keyboard or synth effects. 'Take Good Care of It' and 'Take Your Time' are also very good examples. The more of the same note(s) you tape down the better and bigger the sound (e.g. taping down four octaves of G results in a far more intense, louder and productive sound).
Stereolab and millions of others use this simple trick. The German Avant-Garde composers, Schonberg and Stockhausen pioneered the use of this as a part of their work, but John Cage picked up on it and usually gets the recognition (and I could discuss that all day, but anyone reading this post would die of boredom, or go to sleep).
Most of Pure Phase (the LP, and the tones) and a lot of the 1990 to 1994 live set was primarily in G. 'Medication' is in G - two chords only, G and C.
If you want to play it yourself 'Medication' is simply:
Notes:
G A B C (hold two beats) B D
Chord:
G C G.
'The Slide Song' works in a similar way, as does 'Let it Flow', BUT take a keyboard (in standard tune and not in concert pitch) play it side-by-side with any of these songs, and see how different they sound: that's where the magic comes in.
FOOTNOTE: I transcribed an interview with Sonic Boom in 1993 (conducted by Charlie Pritchard), which was scheduled to appear in the 3rd issue of 'Outer Limits', the Spacemen fanzine. As Spacemen afficiandos will know, no third issue was ever 'published', but the interview was an interesting one, covering the history of the band from after 'Perfect Prescription' to the 'Recurring' sessions. Apparently, after each had finished their tracks, Pierce presented Sonic with 'Come Down Softly...', 'Anyway That You Want Me', 'So Hot' and a (then) unnamed 20 minute, two-note drone song (which was the archetypal Suicide riff, and sounded much like the final Spacemen 3 version would).
Sonic noted that Jason wanted the credits on 'Playing with Fire' to read just Pierce, not Rev/Vega arr. Kember/Pierce as it finally was. Everyone was quite amused by Jason's conception of 'Suicide' as an original composition
Exactly, sly. On something like Medication, Kate probably wanted her hands free to play the little G-A-B-C riff. So I would guess that a G note was taped down in the bass since it's in both G & C. On most Spacemen/Spiritualized tape-downs it would be for a one-chord tune (Take Your Time, Suicide - in which case they'd tape down a first and a fifth) or a two chord tune with a bass drone. Well, I suppose these constitute guesses, but it's pretty intuitive.[quote]
Well, I've got to disagree with you on that, $26 - but....er....Hey, no I don't - I agree with all of that. Is this the fucking 'Twilight Zone'?
Anyway, 'Suicide' (see end of post for interesting footnote on this song) is the best example of this 'technique': Sonic tapes down the keys, and adds keyboard or synth effects. 'Take Good Care of It' and 'Take Your Time' are also very good examples. The more of the same note(s) you tape down the better and bigger the sound (e.g. taping down four octaves of G results in a far more intense, louder and productive sound).
Stereolab and millions of others use this simple trick. The German Avant-Garde composers, Schonberg and Stockhausen pioneered the use of this as a part of their work, but John Cage picked up on it and usually gets the recognition (and I could discuss that all day, but anyone reading this post would die of boredom, or go to sleep).
Most of Pure Phase (the LP, and the tones) and a lot of the 1990 to 1994 live set was primarily in G. 'Medication' is in G - two chords only, G and C.
If you want to play it yourself 'Medication' is simply:
Notes:
G A B C (hold two beats) B D
Chord:
G C G.
'The Slide Song' works in a similar way, as does 'Let it Flow', BUT take a keyboard (in standard tune and not in concert pitch) play it side-by-side with any of these songs, and see how different they sound: that's where the magic comes in.
FOOTNOTE: I transcribed an interview with Sonic Boom in 1993 (conducted by Charlie Pritchard), which was scheduled to appear in the 3rd issue of 'Outer Limits', the Spacemen fanzine. As Spacemen afficiandos will know, no third issue was ever 'published', but the interview was an interesting one, covering the history of the band from after 'Perfect Prescription' to the 'Recurring' sessions. Apparently, after each had finished their tracks, Pierce presented Sonic with 'Come Down Softly...', 'Anyway That You Want Me', 'So Hot' and a (then) unnamed 20 minute, two-note drone song (which was the archetypal Suicide riff, and sounded much like the final Spacemen 3 version would).
Sonic noted that Jason wanted the credits on 'Playing with Fire' to read just Pierce, not Rev/Vega arr. Kember/Pierce as it finally was. Everyone was quite amused by Jason's conception of 'Suicide' as an original composition
Suddenly things become more clear. I have not explained myself totally properly, which is not odd. Basically, I was trying to relate the rather odd taping experiements (with shit organs/keyboards, making weird key-changing sounds, as mentioned before) that I've heard to why taping would've taken place on Sp3, Spz songs.
I'm just a rather shit organist who's looking for a better one for our band (see 'Organist Wanted' thread which never yielded an organist, but never mind...the search continues), and I tend to just whack on root bass note + basic chord-ish variations on the recordings we make at the moment, although these still sound simple + effective, best way I think, using an old Hammond X5. (If anyone's interested send me a PM and I'll send you a link to our site to save appearing like self-promotion fool). Anyway, it had never crossed my mind to play multiple root notes, so to speak, in addition to the standard chords, and having played about a bit tonight have wandered into the 'classic' Pure Phase sound, which is good, because that's the sound that I really relate as Spiritualized. I suppose I found that little missing element, so to speak.
So, last question, in order to save fucking up my organ, what's sort of tape doesn't leave that gooey shit when removed?! And does anyone know if having keys taped down for a prolonged amount of time can cause any damage to the mechanisms inside the organ, as I think I may have read somewhere.
Cheers to those that have solved a very obvious problem for me thus far anyway.
I'm just a rather shit organist who's looking for a better one for our band (see 'Organist Wanted' thread which never yielded an organist, but never mind...the search continues), and I tend to just whack on root bass note + basic chord-ish variations on the recordings we make at the moment, although these still sound simple + effective, best way I think, using an old Hammond X5. (If anyone's interested send me a PM and I'll send you a link to our site to save appearing like self-promotion fool). Anyway, it had never crossed my mind to play multiple root notes, so to speak, in addition to the standard chords, and having played about a bit tonight have wandered into the 'classic' Pure Phase sound, which is good, because that's the sound that I really relate as Spiritualized. I suppose I found that little missing element, so to speak.
So, last question, in order to save fucking up my organ, what's sort of tape doesn't leave that gooey shit when removed?! And does anyone know if having keys taped down for a prolonged amount of time can cause any damage to the mechanisms inside the organ, as I think I may have read somewhere.
Cheers to those that have solved a very obvious problem for me thus far anyway.
-
a beautiful noise
- Known user
- Posts: 1783
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
- Location: things are easier said than done
actually waht you want to use us electrical tape, it comes in many pretty shades. Gaffer or duct tape will leave remnents behind. As well be careful removing the tape. This is very important we have broken two keys this way. Be very gentle.
Just one question though, why don't you take the time to learn how to play keys, it is one of the easisest instruments to comprehend, its chromatic, its all laid out in front of you, in order. I bet you would be surprised how easy it is. Start with middle C. You will be off and running in no time.
xxxshonnnxxx
P.S. let me know if you want to sell the Hammond, we could really use it. Or I will swap you a 70's Yamaha Electric Piano with an amazing reverb and tremolo, all ANALOG!!!!
Just one question though, why don't you take the time to learn how to play keys, it is one of the easisest instruments to comprehend, its chromatic, its all laid out in front of you, in order. I bet you would be surprised how easy it is. Start with middle C. You will be off and running in no time.
xxxshonnnxxx
P.S. let me know if you want to sell the Hammond, we could really use it. Or I will swap you a 70's Yamaha Electric Piano with an amazing reverb and tremolo, all ANALOG!!!!
-
twentysixdollars
- Known user
- Posts: 1319
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
- Location: United States
- Contact:
Gaffer tape shouldn't leave marks - that's what it's designed not to do, after all. I used to use opaque dimestore Scotch-style tape. The glossy kind left remnants. The worst thing that could happen to this kind was that it shredded.
Another fancy-shmancy keyboard trick if your tunes only have major and minor chords is to play in C. All the relevant chords you'll need can be formed with key-space-key-space-key. And for soloing, just avoid the black keys, unless you want to be bluesy and/or modal and/or atonal......
Sadly Ian I can't share in our newfound bizarro-world good vibes for I'm pretty sure you're wrong on this one:
I'll say this: the only spacer that ever tried to take a writing credit for a Suicide song was Peter, for that stupid extra verse on Che. (The sleeve says Rev/Vega/Kember. What a shuck - Peter gets a cut of the royalties for making the worst Suicide tune even worse?)
The quote in question:
This is the same thread where Peter asked - rhetorically no doubt - whether I was "fucking brain dead," and said some of the silliest things I've ever read him say - including proudly claiming the "overall manifesto" of Spacemen 3 was his. He also brags about turning Jason on to tripping, which he must have been doing when he wrote this missive.
Of course, my response to it has its inspired bits of comic lunacy - especially when I claim to respect him, which I haven't for years! I was so embarassed I went back and edited it.
I'm also not so sure of Schoenberg's purported tape-down tendencies. His pieces however atonal or melody-free (based on that rather mathematical tone-row system most of the time) didn't often (or ever, as far as I know) have background drones because that would pretty much set the key, or at least a general 'root' note like it does in Hundustani/Carnatic music, or, for that matter, bagpipe music. And as far as I know Schoenberg never used an electric keyboard. Stockhausen probably would have used it, though.
You're right about Jason's jones for G. Virtually all of his tours, from about 1990 to 1998, were based largely on G major, as evidenced by much of RAH (especially disc one).
Another fancy-shmancy keyboard trick if your tunes only have major and minor chords is to play in C. All the relevant chords you'll need can be formed with key-space-key-space-key. And for soloing, just avoid the black keys, unless you want to be bluesy and/or modal and/or atonal......
Sadly Ian I can't share in our newfound bizarro-world good vibes for I'm pretty sure you're wrong on this one:
Really? All the versions I've got say Kember/Pierce (I don't have the SpaceAge version). You usually get the Spacemen minutae more correct than I do, but are there any versions of Suicide that actually credit Rev and Vega? And I thought that Peter claimed primary authorship of that 'tune' (he said something to the effect of "Jason's credit on that one is strictly nominal." Maybe he meant "Revolution", but is Jason credited on any version of that?)Ian Goodchild wrote: Sonic noted that Jason wanted the credits on 'Playing with Fire' to read just Pierce, not Rev/Vega arr. Kember/Pierce as it finally was. Everyone was quite amused by Jason's conception of 'Suicide' as an original composition
I'll say this: the only spacer that ever tried to take a writing credit for a Suicide song was Peter, for that stupid extra verse on Che. (The sleeve says Rev/Vega/Kember. What a shuck - Peter gets a cut of the royalties for making the worst Suicide tune even worse?)
The quote in question:
http://www.spiritualized.com/message/vi ... 32&forum=4Petesey wrote: Wot a load of crap . check out the song credits for Playing w/ Fire -discount Jason's half credit on Suicide which is purely nominal , and you'll see I wrote 2/3 or more...
This is the same thread where Peter asked - rhetorically no doubt - whether I was "fucking brain dead," and said some of the silliest things I've ever read him say - including proudly claiming the "overall manifesto" of Spacemen 3 was his. He also brags about turning Jason on to tripping, which he must have been doing when he wrote this missive.
Of course, my response to it has its inspired bits of comic lunacy - especially when I claim to respect him, which I haven't for years! I was so embarassed I went back and edited it.I'm also not so sure of Schoenberg's purported tape-down tendencies. His pieces however atonal or melody-free (based on that rather mathematical tone-row system most of the time) didn't often (or ever, as far as I know) have background drones because that would pretty much set the key, or at least a general 'root' note like it does in Hundustani/Carnatic music, or, for that matter, bagpipe music. And as far as I know Schoenberg never used an electric keyboard. Stockhausen probably would have used it, though.
You're right about Jason's jones for G. Virtually all of his tours, from about 1990 to 1998, were based largely on G major, as evidenced by much of RAH (especially disc one).
Thanks one and all for the advice on types of tape. I think I'll get a few types and see what works best, although as no-one's said anything bad about electrical tape, I'll try that first. Thanks again.
RE: A Beautiful Noise's comments, firstly, I'd love to sell you the organ, but it just sounds too good (!, sorry). I got it about 9 months ago, it was pretty grubby, but I've cleaned it up and rebuilt the foot pedals (I've got two sets), it's pretty much new now, bar a slightly dirty sound when pressing a few of the keys. I've had a few offers for it but I think I'd be a bit stupid to sell, as I've not seen many about, especially with portable Leslie cabinet, so sorry to bring bad news.
In terms of playing the thing, I guess I'd say I was 'adequate'. I'd never thought about £26.00's cunning 'play it all in C plan', but we mainly use 5th's and 7th's, in addition to bog standard major/minor shit, so it's not really applicable I suppose. Good tip for the lazy though, I am sure. I'd like to get real-good one day, but I'm a guitarist by trade and between putting together a new line-up, writing some new shit, working like a dog to fund recordings and having quite a bad year health-wise it's just not happened this year, but maybe in the future. What band do you play in? PM me a link perhaps. Ideally I'd like to add, as per the 'Organist' thread, a good pianist/organist to the band and then pick things up from there, and be able to concentrate on the guitar, vocal, side of things in the meantime. Do like the sound of that Yamaha keyboard though, what model is it? Oh, and I don't suppose you've got any idea how to get into the actual body of the X5, have you? I've had a good fiddle about and can't seem to get the top off. The one X5 'expert' I spoke to was talking about screws that, well, just weren't there. Hmm.
Finally, in response to BzaInSpace's thoughts, the Leslie gives a pretty full-on swirling sound, which I find phase makes a bit more muddy. But I sometimes tend to run the organ signal through my guitar rig when recording, and I dunno if you've tried it at all but running the organ through a couple of delay pedals and altering the delay speed/feedback levels can get some pretty radical sounds, especially for links between different bits of a song, although you can get too near to dodgy trance sounds, and nobody likes that (except Euphoria fans). Only problem here is having enough hands to play/control effects at once. And hence where, as with things, we return to the beginning - tape. It's the circle of life. Long live the Lion King.
Thanks to all for thoughts etc again.
Steve
RE: A Beautiful Noise's comments, firstly, I'd love to sell you the organ, but it just sounds too good (!, sorry). I got it about 9 months ago, it was pretty grubby, but I've cleaned it up and rebuilt the foot pedals (I've got two sets), it's pretty much new now, bar a slightly dirty sound when pressing a few of the keys. I've had a few offers for it but I think I'd be a bit stupid to sell, as I've not seen many about, especially with portable Leslie cabinet, so sorry to bring bad news.
In terms of playing the thing, I guess I'd say I was 'adequate'. I'd never thought about £26.00's cunning 'play it all in C plan', but we mainly use 5th's and 7th's, in addition to bog standard major/minor shit, so it's not really applicable I suppose. Good tip for the lazy though, I am sure. I'd like to get real-good one day, but I'm a guitarist by trade and between putting together a new line-up, writing some new shit, working like a dog to fund recordings and having quite a bad year health-wise it's just not happened this year, but maybe in the future. What band do you play in? PM me a link perhaps. Ideally I'd like to add, as per the 'Organist' thread, a good pianist/organist to the band and then pick things up from there, and be able to concentrate on the guitar, vocal, side of things in the meantime. Do like the sound of that Yamaha keyboard though, what model is it? Oh, and I don't suppose you've got any idea how to get into the actual body of the X5, have you? I've had a good fiddle about and can't seem to get the top off. The one X5 'expert' I spoke to was talking about screws that, well, just weren't there. Hmm.
Finally, in response to BzaInSpace's thoughts, the Leslie gives a pretty full-on swirling sound, which I find phase makes a bit more muddy. But I sometimes tend to run the organ signal through my guitar rig when recording, and I dunno if you've tried it at all but running the organ through a couple of delay pedals and altering the delay speed/feedback levels can get some pretty radical sounds, especially for links between different bits of a song, although you can get too near to dodgy trance sounds, and nobody likes that (except Euphoria fans). Only problem here is having enough hands to play/control effects at once. And hence where, as with things, we return to the beginning - tape. It's the circle of life. Long live the Lion King.
Thanks to all for thoughts etc again.
Steve
One more thing which no one seems to have mentioned...
Don't use tape, use a card!!!
This is something I have seen plenty of people do, including Stereolab - use a card like a plastic credit card or drivers licence, place it over the top of the key you wish held down, then rest the edges of the card on the underside of the adjacent key on each side of the one held down.
Voila, no need for taping, you can simply pull the card out in the middle of the song/piece when required, or for the next song.
Obviously you can't hold down adjacent keys with this method, nor the sharp (black) keys, but it works wonders for a single note drone.
Don't use tape, use a card!!!
This is something I have seen plenty of people do, including Stereolab - use a card like a plastic credit card or drivers licence, place it over the top of the key you wish held down, then rest the edges of the card on the underside of the adjacent key on each side of the one held down.
Voila, no need for taping, you can simply pull the card out in the middle of the song/piece when required, or for the next song.
Obviously you can't hold down adjacent keys with this method, nor the sharp (black) keys, but it works wonders for a single note drone.