Fans as a force for conservatism

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Danny
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Fans as a force for conservatism

Post by Danny »

I posted this a while back, but it got buried in the middle of a debate about something else; I hope you don't mind me rehashing it here.

Does anyone else wonder why people bother taking the time to come on here and argue about Jason 'running out of steam'?

I’m sure Jason is pleased that there's enough interest in him and his work to (hopefully) sustain it. Success has many nice payoffs, but one of the disadvantages is this idea that artists should start to be made to feel responsible for other people's feelings: variations of "why don't you do more records like - (insert any album title). But the most important reason is "If Jason followed your advice in the first place he’d never have got anywhere".

I'm afraid to say that admirers can be a tremendous force for conservatism, for consolidation. Of course it's really wonderful to be acclaimed for things you've done - in fact it's the only serious reward, because it makes you think "it worked! I'm not isolated!" or something like that, and it makes you feel gratefully connected to your own culture. But on the other hand, there's a tremendously strong pressure to repeat yourself, to do more of that thing we all liked so much. Why should Jason do that? If you liked, say, Lazer Guided Melodies so much – why not just listen to that record again?

There is a big discrepency between the spirit in which things are conceived (joyful, experimental) and the spirit in which they are received (suspicious, jaded). It's a very Western critical response, almost as though you have to buy/listen to those records.

The problem with good artists is that people nearly always prefer what they doing a few years earlier - this has always been true. The other problem is that so, often, do they! Discovering things is clumsy and sporadic, and the results don't at first compare well with the glossy and lauded works of the past. You have to keep reminding yourself that they went through that as well, otherwise they become frighteningly accomplished.

Of course a lot of it is down to one's age and experience (with the band) when the record came out. My favourite Cocteau Twins record, for example, is Milk And Kisses – their last record. I was 16 when I first heard it, it was the first Cocteau Twins record I’d heard. So I love that record more than all the others even though, to fans who had loved the band for ten years or so previously, it was the formulaic sound of a band treading water.

Give the guy a break. Spiritualized’s innovation is basically the by-product of Jason Pierce’s fidelity to his own vision. Who are we to disagree?
SpaceLine
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Post by SpaceLine »

Does anyone else wonder why people bother taking the time to come on here and argue about Jason 'running out of steam'?
not really to be honest. what else are people gonna talk about? new record comes out - buy it, listen to it, come on over here and blab about it. jason could care less about this board and what is said here so really it's just a bunch of fans tossing info/opinions back and forth - i highly doubt it in any way affects his musical output.
spzretent
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Post by spzretent »

This board is very cathartic for many of us.
Any artist who has his/her own vision will inevetably gain and lose fans as their careers go along. It is human nature. Most of us who discuss or bitch about things here care a lot. Most, if not all, will still buy the releases as they come out.
I find it insulting that people feel the need to post things like yours.
For most of us we enjoy freedom of speech and to say everything is ok that Spiritualized put out or that Jason shouldn't be taken to task for certain things is ludicrous. :x
cheaps
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Post by cheaps »

>>I find it insulting that people feel the need to post things like yours. For most of us we enjoy freedom of speech...

...So you enjoy freedom of speech but you feel insulted that someone takes advantage of it?
spzretent
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Post by spzretent »

Yes. I can feel insulted by someone elses post. Did I tell him not to post in the future? No.
I am insulted by plenty of the posts on this board but I would never, ever tell someone not to post.
Its all about opinions and dialogue.
ORBITAL
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Post by ORBITAL »

I dont like potatoes.
jamesj1986
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Post by jamesj1986 »

Jason's privacy isn't really that bad.

At Tomahawk's most recent gig in London (I read this in a review) Mike Patton came out to soundcheck and the crowd cheered for him, he told them to shut up, but when they wouldn't he spat on them.
cheaps
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Post by cheaps »

spzretent: As soon as someone voices an opinion, you respond by saying you are "insulted". That's not most peoples' idea of dialogue. Would you say that to someone in the street and expect it to lead to a conversation? I don't think so. True, you did not tell the person not to post, but you might as well have done.
twentysixdollars
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Post by twentysixdollars »

cheaps wrote:spzretent: As soon as someone voices an opinion, you respond by saying you are "insulted". That's not most peoples' idea of dialogue. Would you say that to someone in the street and expect it to lead to a conversation? I don't think so. True, you did not tell the person not to post, but you might as well have done.
This is a silly thing to argue about. The very 'opinion' that Spzretent was offended by was a suggestion that posters here should lay off their criticism of Jason - in other words, non-sycophants need not apply. The original post suggested putting the muzzle on people like me, and Spzretent spoke out against that. He's right. Period.
runaway
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Post by runaway »

I'm curious as to why, when Spiritualized finally releases a crap record, all these johnny-come-latelys pop out of the woodwork to defend it.

I wonder what the Western critical response to this would be?
spzretent
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Post by spzretent »

Cheaps:

That was a pretty lame defense of your one liner.

Honestly, I dont really care what people post except when it is a blatant contradiction.

You dont see us moderators doing much moderating on this board because we feel we dont have to.

It was my gut feeling to be insulted by the very nature of that post. I expressed MY opinion.

You dont like it and thats fine. You expressed your opinion.

If Danny was so insulted that he took his ball and went home then....thats his problem.
You came to his defense. Thats your opinion. I think we have some dialogue going here. If Danny cares to join in the more the merrier.

I like potatoes.
clewsr
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Post by clewsr »

I Like potatos too. Particularly in potato salad form with Garlic and Chilli.
Morning.
mazza
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Post by mazza »

ORBITAL wrote:I dont like potatoes.

do you like any veg?

i like turnip.
Danny
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Post by Danny »

Hi guys,

Well, it's not exactly a case of taking my ball and going home - just that I haven't logged on in twelve hours or so! Having returned, I'm glad to have sparked such a vigorous debate, which of course is what forums like this are great for.

I hope you don't think I was attempting, in any way, shape or form, to limit people's freedom of speech - since, as somebody pointed out, I was exercising that right by making my point. I was just trying to raise, well, a question really (rather than a debate as such) - so maybe you guys could help me answer it:

How much do you think the point at which you start liking an artist (i.e. at what point in their career) effects which releases you like. If you could look back at my point and refer to what I said about Cocteau Twins is a good example; also, with Spiritualized, I only heard of them when Let It Come Down came out (before that I was overseas and completely missed the release of - and the critics wetting themselves because of - Ladies and Gentlemen We Are Floating In Space) and so that record is my favourite, I guess, and I love Amazing Grace. Working backwards, it is harder for me to get into the earlier records, although like anything by Jason, they take time to work their charms anyway.

I was wondering, more than anything else, if this struck a chord with anyone.
clewsr
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Post by clewsr »

Ok, I'll try to answer this fairly sensibly. First off, I think the issue may affect spiritualized fans more than others, because of Jason's relentless streak of change and progression. For instance one of the first bands I grew to love was AC/DC [cough]. I don't remember having a particular favourite album, because well, not to put too finer point on it they all sound more or less the same. So anything from the Bon Scott era does me fine. Spiritualized on the other hand, each album does sound very different from each other. So for me I got into them when LGM was released, and I must have a penchant for laid back spaced out psychedelia because it remains my favourite album ever. If I hadn't heard that album and I heard Ladies and Gents for the first time would I have got into them as much? Probably. If amazing grace was the first album I'd heard of Spiritualized? Probably not, but that may be just because its just not quite as good as the others. [In my own opinion, etc etc]

I don't think you can say its a hard and fast rule, but I agree with you people tend to be into the album that first got into the band the most, for that is probably when they were most passionate about the band. But as fans as a force of conservatism, I can't really agree, while some of us may moan and gripe about the good old days I very much doubt that Jason gives two shits, and no way should he do so. Apart from compilation albums, yes maybe he should listen to the fans then.

Anyway back to equally interesting vegetables, I recently discovered a new veg I'd never heard of - butternut squash, a large bulbous vegetable a bit like Swede. Very nice in casseroles. mmmmm....casseroles.
spzretent
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Post by spzretent »

I hope Jason doesn't read this message board.
If he did and tried to please us all Spiritualized would turn into a latter day Cult.
Now there is a band who sold out every step of the way through the 80's and 90's. :evil:
Mind you I was never a fan. I did like She Sells Sanctuary though.
AC DC! I was never into them in the Bon Scott era i dint think. As a matter of fact I dont even know when that era ended. :oops:

BUT, I did see them twice in one month and they were by far thee most entertaining arena rock band I have ever seen. People go on and on about what a relentless performer Bruce Springsteen is they owe it to themselves to check AC DC out. Not that they have many common fans but holy shit I was impressed. :D
natty
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Post by natty »

ORBITAL wrote:I dont like potatoes.
That's a shame, they're incredibly versatile and a good source of carbs.

The stuff about liking an album best because it was the first one you got into doesn't ring true for me. OK, Lazer is my favourite SPZ album and was the first one I got, but with SP3 I got Playing With Fire first, Recurring second, The Perfect Prescription and Performance 3rd and then Sound of Confusion. The Perfect Prescription is my favourite. Then again, maybe the reason I love SP3 so much is because I got all of their LP's in a space of about 6 months! Who knows? Who even cares? Not me! :D
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