MC5

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redcloud
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MC5

Post by redcloud »

This thread seems appropriate for this site but also because some of the discussion/debate going on in the Green Pajamas thread might go unnoticed by many.

Arguable I know, but I think a good case could be made that even with only three official LP's they were the greatest rock and roll band....ever. Over the past year or so I have actually been working on an article about this very subject. When I feel it's complete perhaps I will send it to Dave for an inclusion in a future issue of Optical Sounds?

Personally, I love the unharnessed energy and aggression of 'KOTJ', I think 'Back In The USA' is the 5's most misunderstood album and quite possibly the most important of the three working as a bridge between the two monster albums. BUT, in my opinion, 'High Time' is their greatest and most mature work. Everything all comes together so brilliantly. The musicians are all on top form and Tyner's lyrics and singing were never better.

Regarding the inevitable comparisons between the 5 and The Stooges...as I said in the GP thread - The 5 were angry but they were also intelligent and they channeled that fury into high octane, unhinged energy mixed with many influences including rock, garage, psych, soul and free jazz (Sun Ra). On the contrary, The Stooges were snotty nosed teens who were bored as fuck, higher than a kite and totally disillusioned. Their boredom came out as three loud chords coming through a dirty amp. I love those Stooges albums too but they don't have the substance or the reference points of the 5 (nor were the musicians anywhere near as good).

The word "proto punk/proto metal" often gets used for both bands, which isn't always fair and doesn't tell the full story of the MC5. Many also cite The Stooges as godfathers of punk. They were certainly there in the beginning stages but I would also say that there were punk bands before The Stooges and before the term "punk rock" was ever used. Numerous garage bands in the mid-60's could be called "punk" (even Iggy's first band The Iguanas) but a fucked up little folky, avante garde jug band called The Fugs could also claim that title. In fact, was it not Ed Sanders who once called his band, The Fugs, "a bunch of punks"? If so, that may well be the first use of the term in music.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on the MC5? One of the true, honest greats or as runaway said in the GP thread...are they just another "chooga chooga hippie jam band" that even Lester Bangs didn't groove to when they first came out (although I do believe Bangs changed his opinion of them later on)?

Hopefully most have seen the essential MC5 doc. I don't know if Wayne is still stalling it's release (why Wayne? Why?) but if you haven't seen this film I think it's fair to say that it should be mandatory viewing for all. I even had my 11 year old son watch it as he is learning to play the guitar and is beginning to really get into music. Also, Brett Callwood's bio is a decent read on the band. And one last thing...as with the Elevators (another band who could arguably receive the title of "greatest rock and roll band...ever!) there are only three official MC5 albums, a handful of singles but a host of bootleg live/unreleased/outtake records of varying quality. Maybe one day somebody will put out the definitive MC5 box set like Drummond's glorious set on the Elevators.

Thoughts?
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Re: MC5

Post by redcloud »

MattBenn wrote:My first thought is "why haven't I seen this documentary?!"
"A True Testimonial".

Wayne Kramer, who was very involved in its making seemed to have last minute gripes with the producers and I believe with Tyner's family. Not sure the exact details but I know Wayne stalled it weeks/days before its official release. Some initial film festival screenings were shown and dvd's were sent for press release/reviews before the disagreements. But, the whole project was quickly halted once issue between the filmmakers, Kramer and Tyner's family arose. Boots of the film are available. I managed to get a hold of one from a friend of mine in England who worked for Charley Records and they received one of the dvd's. When they were done with it he kindly gave it to me.
and my second thought is "can someone PLEASE point me in the direction of where I can see this documentary?!"
I can try and hook you up. I had two copies and if memory serves...I sent my second copy to toomilk. I'm not sure if I can burn dvd...perhaps toomilk can help??
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Re: MC5

Post by angelsighs »

for me, it's the former- one of the great rock bands, albeit with a few caveats. as I said on the other thread I adore KOTJ, I think it's tremendous. I was quite young when I first heard it and the sheer energy blew me away. whats more it still holds up now, and if anything my appreciation of it has deepened over the years. the guitars sound pumped up and gigantic, but never fake sounding- you can hear the amps working (I remember reading an interview with Wayne where he said that the amp was just as important as your guitar in terms of being your 'instrument'). Dennis's wild drums also sound amazing too. I love Motor City Is Burning- one of my favourite mutant blues songs next to Hendrix's Red House. and then there's I Want You Right Now- a monstrous slab of pure lust
I think you hit the nail on the head when you said what gives them the edge is the other genres they put into the stew. they obviously knew their Soul very well- Rob had a great white soul voice, and in the repetitive, pounding rhythms you can hear James Brown. most of all though it was the way they knew how to put on a SHOW- in all the hollering and testifying I can hear echoes of black soul/funk shows where they really know how to whip an audience up and build to crescendos. no muso navel gazing here.
and don't forget the freejazz- apart from the epic Starship, you can only really hear it on KOTJ on the big noisy endings to songs, where it almost becomes white noise. the guitars are almost fraying at the edges. but there's also the squalling horns on High Time (big influence on Jason?), and of course the blowout of Black to Comm (in a way, their most important song, but never on a proper album!!) so yeah, mere boogie woogie rock it wasn't.
that's why the weak link in the chain for me is Back In The USA- it's just rock n roll revivalism which I find much less interesting. it would have been an okay stab at it, if that darn mix was just a bit beefier! the other versions of Looking at You just demolish the BITU version.
in a way they did squander their potential as they only did the 3 albums and I would have loved to hear them integrate the freejazz even more, and there was also the only 'ballad' they ever did in the form of Miss X.. I agree that High Time was their most mature record. could have been the start of a grand new phase for them.

I've got a DVD of A True Testimonial (found it at a record fair) and it's one of my fave rock docs. I thought it was actually finally about to come out recently? contains loads of great live footage and it's really comprehensive, doesn't whitewash anything. Wayne seems like a cool guy. some quite moving bits in it- Michael says he still regularly dreams at night about being in the band.

I'd love a pointer as to what's any good in the minefield of live albums/compilations out there. in particular I'd love to get my hands on a good quality version of Black to Comm, and any outtakes from KOTJ.
is this any good?
http://www.allmusic.com/album/anthology ... 0000786163

and I'd love to read that article when you finish it!
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Re: MC5

Post by spzretent »

There is also a doc called Kick Out The Jams by Leni Sinclair and Cary Loren put out by Creem Magazine

http://www.amazon.com/MC5-Kick-Out-Jams/dp/B0009CTUY6

Mixed reviews but living in Detroit all my life there is loads of historic footage for which I am grateful for.

Leni Sinclair, John Sinclair's wife, is selling some great photos as greeting cards. She misspelled Grande Ballroom though. Which is infuriating. Grandy. Ouch!
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Re: MC5

Post by sunray »

MattBenn wrote:If someone could burn me a DVD, I would cover whatever the postage and dvd-r costs are and be eternally grateful.
Me too please. I've been trying to track that DVD down for a few years now to no avail. :( I know it's available on some torrent sites but it's far too large for my connection to deal with.

As for the band themselves? High Times would be the pick of the bunch for me, then KOTJ. Not really into Back In The USA but that's probably more to do with the production. My most listened to MC5 songs are probably Borderline and Sister Anne, both phenomenal tunes. Have to admit though, I do prefer The Stooges. I'd certainly listen to Iggy's mob a lot more than the MC5.

Both great bands though. 8)
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Re: MC5

Post by shalloboi »

i really like the MC5, but i don't listen to them that much. i've always loved KOTJ and 'high time' is their best studio album. i've never been able to get into 'back in the usa.' i still have it though, so i might give it another shot at some point.
i've always been more into the stooges than the MC5. the three stooges albums are all so distinct from one another and i always have a hard time deciding which one is my favorite. in a way i think it's an either/or situation. the two bands have similar roots and are nearly always mentioned in the same breath so i sometimes think it's a case where one of the two is going to speak to you more than the other. with the stooges the songs sell it for me a lot more. i just love nearly every song on those three albums.
has anyone read 'please kill me' by legs mcneill? a significant chunk of the book is dedicated to the MC5 and the stooges and there's also a lot about the velvets, lou reed, new york dolls and a lot of the other usual suspects. it was a really interesting read. the only thing is that everyone in it comes out looking like a completely self-absorbed asshole. reading it is what always springs to mind whenever i see this 'who started punk' debate rise up because the book seems to show that no one did, it was a really long evolution that far too many people contributed to for any one person or band to claim ownership to.
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Re: MC5

Post by redcloud »

angelsighs wrote: that's why the weak link in the chain for me is Back In The USA- it's just rock n roll revivalism which I find much less interesting. it would have been an okay stab at it, if that darn mix was just a bit beefier! the other versions of Looking at You just demolish the BITU version.
I agree, the early version of 'Looking At You' is superior. But, what I think is SO important about 'BITUSA' is the fact that they had to reclaim the band from Sinclair. They went back to the basics of why they were inspired to form a band in the first place. Also, keep in mind, before 1961/62...Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Jerry Lee etc. were subversive. This raw rock and roll is what fuels the MC5 and in particular, 'BINTUSA'. So, subversive in fact, that the conservative white radio stations needed to tame things down and rock and pop music went through a very watered down, weak, limp phase until the British came to these shores and shook things up again. As 'BINTUSA' follows 'KOTJ' it was inevitable people would be disappointed. 43 years later I think it can be viewed much more favorably. But I agree that the mix doesn't help its critics. I have never heard Sundazed's reissue though. Has anybody? If so, have they added more meat to the mix?

The militant politics are gone but their concern and anger remains as heard on 'Human Being Lawn Mower'. Also, regarding ballads...don't forget 'Let Me Try', which I would call a soulful ballad before 'Miss X' was recorded and is easily one of Tyner's greatest songs. The cymbal beat being used as a metronome to keep time is just superb as is the gorgeous, delicate, flowing guitar work.
I'd love a pointer as to what's any good in the minefield of live albums/compilations out there. in particular I'd love to get my hands on a good quality version of Black to Comm, and any outtakes from KOTJ.
I recommend 'Babes in Arms', which was initially a cassette only release but it has since been reissued on LP and CD. It compiles several of their early garage band singles, outtakes, unreleased tracks ('Gold' is superb!). Strangely, they didn't put 'Black To Comm' on it though. It also has the uncensored 'KOTJ', which may seem a waste of space now but when the comp was released in the early 80's it was still hard to find copies of the uncensored LP. I also really like 'Power Trip'. The quality is varying on the latter and at times it can be raw to the ears but I think it's one of the better posthumous releases with some superb amps on 10, sonic assault style free jazz explorations and balls to the wall wig outs.
spzretent wrote:Leni Sinclair, John Sinclair's wife, is selling some great photos as greeting cards. She misspelled Grande Ballroom though. Which is infuriating. Grandy. Ouch!
That's unfortunate! I wonder if she did it deliberately so people knew how it was pronounced (I admit that I thought it was pronounced GRAND for years and then I met somebody from Michigan who corrected me). I'd love to see some of her cards!

Matt Benn...don't worry, between all of us somebody will sort you out with a copy!
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Re: MC5

Post by redcloud »

Speaking of reads...I love John Sinclair's "Guitar Army". Yea, his outrageous, militant, "rock and roll, dope, guns and fucking in the streets" extremist politics are all over it but his writings about MC5 and The Up make for a great read and the photos are very cool. Sinclair's politics also speak much about Detroit at the time and help put things into perspective.

I also have a book called "It's All Good' that compiles Sinclair's prison writings as well as articles he wrote over the years.

I have a soft spot for the guy.
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Re: MC5

Post by runaway »

I guess I'm gonna have to give them another try because, frankly, I could never really stand them. I have KOTJ and Back In The USA on CD and never got rid of them (in case some visiting music geek noticed that I had no MC5 in my collection).
You can't discuss the MC5 without mentioning or comparing them to the Stooges, and for me the latter band was far superior; more druggy, more dangerous, more original, more dynamic and more dramatic.
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Re: MC5

Post by sunray »

redcloud wrote:Speaking of reads...I love John Sinclair's "Guitar Army". Yea, his outrageous, militant, "rock and roll, dope, guns and fucking in the streets" extremist politics are all over it but his writings about MC5 and The Up make for a great read and the photos are very cool. Sinclair's politics also speak much about Detroit at the time and help put things into perspective.

I also have a book called "It's All Good' that compiles Sinclair's prison writings as well as articles he wrote over the years.

I have a soft spot for the guy.
Sinclair recently did a spoken word night along with Howard Marks in Dublin. Unfortunately i couldn't attend as there was just too much other stuff going on around the same time. Didn't hear any reports on how it went either.

So Matt got sorted for a copy of A True Testimonial, anyone able to do likewise for myself? Please. I'll cover all costs of course.
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Re: MC5

Post by angelsighs »

redcloud wrote:
I recommend 'Babes in Arms', which was initially a cassette only release but it has since been reissued on LP and CD. It compiles several of their early garage band singles, outtakes, unreleased tracks ('Gold' is superb!). Strangely, they didn't put 'Black To Comm' on it though. It also has the uncensored 'KOTJ', which may seem a waste of space now but when the comp was released in the early 80's it was still hard to find copies of the uncensored LP. I also really like 'Power Trip'. The quality is varying on the latter and at times it can be raw to the ears but I think it's one of the better posthumous releases with some superb amps on 10, sonic assault style free jazz explorations and balls to the wall wig outs.
thanks for the info! i'll check these out. there does seem to be a lot of dodgy MC5 albums out there.

I kind of know what you mean about Back in the USA.. the return to rock n roll roots is a statement in itself... and although they were angry and 'political' it was only in a vague sense. I don't think their heart was really into Sinclairs radical side of things. they had to jettison it in the end. it's just that musically I just don't find BITU that engaging. it could well be salvaged a proper remix from the ground up, though.

I'd love to sort someone out with a copy of the DVD but I'm a bit of a luddite.. how would I rip it off the disc, and also I don't have a DVD burner??
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Re: MC5

Post by runaway »

Sorry to tangentalize, but after researching Lester Bangs and the MC5 I stumbled across the rumor that when Bangs died from a drug overdose he was listening to Human League's Dare!
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Re: MC5

Post by redcloud »

angelsighs wrote: and although they were angry and 'political' it was only in a vague sense. I don't think their heart was really into Sinclairs radical side of things. they had to jettison it in the end. it's just that musically I just don't find BITU that engaging. it could well be salvaged a proper remix from the ground up, though.
I think politics were always there. Hard not to live in an industrial city that saw major rioting, a controversial war and a major counter culture without having politics at the forefront. I'm not convinced they believed in the whole "White Panther" thing or some other far left/militant views of Sinclair's. But, the already mentioned "Human Being Lawnmower" and"Over And Over" are strong statements to the world. Also, socially they had strong messages in songs like 'Future/Now', 'Gotta Keep Moving' and 'Poison'. By this stage though their "are you the problem or are you the solution?" stance had matured and they were channeling that anger into well perceived compositions. This is why I think they were superior to The Stooges.
runaway wrote: Sorry to tangentalize, but after researching Lester Bangs and the MC5 I stumbled across the rumor that when Bangs died from a drug overdose he was listening to Human League's Dare!
Yes, I have read that before too. Not sure how true it is. Seems the furthest thing from his days with Rolling Stone and Creem. Then again maybe he was on the cusp of writing a barbed review of The Human League that we have never had the fortune to read. Although, didn't he jokingly cite 'Kiss Alive II' as the second best album ever made (second only to 'Metal Machine Music')? :D
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Re: MC5

Post by spzretent »

I was in a really cool record shop downtown today. They have several of these MC5 photos made into greeting cards. Some Stooges ones too. $5 each. All by Leni Sinclair who originally took these photos. No more spelling mistakes. Grande Ballroom is now spelled correctly. Not Grandy Ballroom anymore.
There are also larger photos that are $20 each. A nice Grateful Dead from Ann Arbor in 1968 or 1969.
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Re: MC5

Post by redcloud »

spzretent wrote: A nice Grateful Dead from Ann Arbor in 1968 or 1969.
West Park Aug. 13, 1967, perhaps?
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Re: MC5

Post by spzretent »

I cant remember but it was in a bandshell and the photo was pretty cool.
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Re: MC5

Post by redcloud »

spzretent wrote:I cant remember but it was in a bandshell and the photo was pretty cool.
Yea, I think that is West Park - afternoon show. They played two nights at the Grande before this date but I don't know if the MC5 were on the bill or not. I think the bands hung out though as did Sinclair, Rock Skully and Danny Rifkin (Dead's Manager/s).
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Re: MC5

Post by simonkeeping »

Not wishing to derail the thread but going back to the opening thoughts on The Stooges. That first album is a beautiful example of minimalism taken to extremes. I read Iggy's biography and one of the things which struck me was that on the debut album I don't think he used a word with more than 1 syllable in. It really was super sparce and raw. I don't need to tell people on here how clever young Jim Osterberg was when he penned those lyrics. The MC5 on the other hand we're untamed, unbridled, raw energy. All the great music of the time wrapped up those explosions of sound. High Times is a fine album, Perhaps more focused than the debut? I don't know? Anyway, I posted this on face book a while back but for those im not connected to here's some magic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rf_7GuVaN8k
http://www.soundcloud.com/haarlemriots
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Re: MC5

Post by jadams501 »

redcloud wrote:Also, keep in mind, before 1961/62...Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Jerry Lee etc. were subversive. This raw rock and roll is what fuels the MC5 and in particular, 'BINTUSA'. So, subversive in fact, that the conservative white radio stations needed to tame things down and rock and pop music went through a very watered down, weak, limp phase until the British came to these shores and shook things up again.
You know, while this is an integral part of the popular narrative of rock, I don't think it's historically accurate. Yes the American rock scene wasn't quite as raw in the early 60s as it had been a few years earlier, and plenty of parents were relieved about that, but there were a lot reasons for the scene changing. A lot of listeners just preferred softer sounds, as when disco superseded funk on the charts in the mid to late 70s. A lot of the rock 'n' rollers had settled after the rush of initial hits into a rut of novelty remakes of their original stuff. Elvis was mismanaged by the Colonel and also craving mainstream respect. And it was a time when recording technology was improving by leaps and bounds, so the older stuff got dated quickly. Etc.

Plus, there was a lot of great music coming out pre-Beatles in the early 60s. You can't quite call it rock 'n' roll, but a lot of great jukebox hits came out in those years, it was Phil Spector's heyday, Sam Cooke, some good country music, etc.

Anyway not to derail the thread but I think rock history is often cast in a reductive "us vs. them" light, where we the cool people always liked what was dangerous and rebellious and about social change, while they the reactionary forces of conformity wanted to crush all that was good and cool. I'd argue the reality is more that people have diverse tastes, times change, people like easy listening, etc.
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Re: MC5

Post by redcloud »

I disagree jadams. This is something I have thought a lot about over the years.

Rock and Roll was dangerous. It was an energy that the parents, teachers and government could not control AND it was also coming from black folk that scared the shit out of the white, 50's mentality mainstream. Their precious suburban kids were dancing to the "wild, perverse sounds of the inner city". Good god we must somehow stop this! So, of course the limp, tame sounds of Paul Anka, Dion, Patsy Cline, The Ronettes and The Four Seasons were much more palatable than the wild, untamed rock and roll that was corrupting the youth of America (the white youth). Of course, tastes change as do radio waves. But, this was rock and roll in its infancy and there was a sense of trying to make pop music less subversive. They lost the battle once the British arrived and the whole counter culture went into full swing.

And...at that crazy paranoid time in our history it very much was an us vs them. "Have you ever been or do you ever plan to be in the Communist Party"? "Communists all of them"! The young generation vs the older generation. Remember the saying..."you can't trust anybody older than 30"? That was indeed what the whole joke was about in the Jefferson Airplane song 'Lather' (Spencer Dryden was turning 30). Also, if it wasn't an "us and them" thing then why did the FBI have files on (to name just a few)...Elvis, Lennon and the mighty MC5?
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Re: MC5

Post by spzretent »

redcloud wrote:
spzretent wrote:Leni Sinclair, John Sinclair's wife, is selling some great photos as greeting cards. She misspelled Grande Ballroom though. Which is infuriating. Grandy. Ouch!
That's unfortunate! I wonder if she did it deliberately so people knew how it was pronounced (I admit that I thought it was pronounced GRAND for years and then I met somebody from Michigan who corrected me). I'd love to see some of her cards!
Story goes her grandkids were helping her. Thats what I was told yesterday. The writing looks exactly the same as hers. So who knows.
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Re: MC5

Post by redcloud »

The early footage from the Grande/various halls in Detroit, Grosse Point and Ann Arbor are always fun. Especially with Wayne's American flag guitar and the flags on the amps. But, I also really love the Wayne St. Univ footage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYeHLyYi ... re=related
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Re: MC5

Post by jadams501 »

I agree that rock 'n' roll was dangerous -- certainly Elvis had a raw sexual energy at the beginning that I wouldn't have wanted any daughter of mine near -- but that doesn't mean the people threatened by it didn't have a point of view. Parents have always wanted to protect their children, as mine did when they didn't want their cheerful ten year old listening to gangsta rap about hos and drug deals gone bad. I can't blame any of them for preferring their kids listen to Pat Boone rather than Elvis, when they were used to relatively clean-cut big band and country. This was an era before people were desensitized by twenty-four hour cable news, social media, portable devices, and so forth.

Maybe Dion, Patsy Cline, the Ronettes, Four Seasons, etc. weren't quite as raw or sexualized as some of the early rock and rollers had been, but they produced some timeless pop classics. The best of Sam Cooke, early Beach Boys, Ronettes + Crystals and Phil Spector's other stuff, Four Tops, and others I think stand up with anything by Carl Perkins, Jerry Lee Lewis, Little Richard, etc. And while Elvis' post-Korea period was less intense than his early years, he did some of his signature songs during that time. And, that period was an interesting time for folk and country, there was still a lot of jazz making waves, bossa nova become huge, etc. I just think the narrative that the scene had become barren before the Beatles took on the righteous flag of rock 'n' roll excludes too much great and important music, including things that later fused with rock and roll in interesting ways.

I like MC5, I think that the whole revolutionary politics thing is part of the anarchic energy of their music, but ultimately something of a time piece, in the same way that I'm listening to SSgt. Barry Sadler's Ballads of the Green Berets today. It's exciting, but it's entertainment. However intoxicating the slogans and righteous indignation were, they really weren't very substantive when all was said and done.
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Re: MC5

Post by redcloud »

jadams501 wrote: And, that period was an interesting time for folk and country, there was still a lot of jazz making waves, bossa nova become huge, etc. I just think the narrative that the scene had become barren before the Beatles took on the righteous flag of rock 'n' roll excludes too much great and important music, including things that later fused with rock and roll in interesting ways.
Of course there was a lot of other things going on. I'm not stupid. But, if you re-read my post I specifically said "rock and pop". I didn't say anything about any other types of music. Now that would be naive.
Parents have always wanted to protect their children, as mine did when they didn't want their cheerful ten year old listening to gangsta rap about hos and drug deals gone bad. I can't blame any of them for preferring their kids listen to Pat Boone rather than Elvis, when they were used to relatively clean-cut big band and country.
I must be a bad parent. I watched 'A True Testimonial' with my 11 (nearly 12 year old son) as well as the Jimi Hendrix film from the early 70's. Lots of swearing and talk of drugs in both as well as a full on description (oral and visual) of the 5's total fuck off attitude. But, I can't shelter the kid. Probably worse language on his school playground than in the movies. And, as we live in the city we see drug addicts, homeless people, prostitutes, mentally ill people on our streets every day of the week. We openly talk about it and that line of communication will always be there. He's growing up in a loving family, being taught good morals and I trust that he will find his way in life and do the right thing. As a parent that's all one can do.
However intoxicating the slogans and righteous indignation were, they really weren't very substantive when all was said and done.
I disagree. We're not talking about the Strawberry Alarm Clock here. Musically the MC5 inspired hundreds (thousands) of bands and continue to do so even today. Their importance makes them much more than just a footnote in the history of rock music. Also, politically they may have been guided/under the wing of Sinclair in the early days but I do think their anarchic, fuck you, revolution through music attitude was 100% for real. In fact, that is what attracted Sinclair to them in the first place.
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Re: MC5

Post by spunder »

i've just come here to say that the MC5 are one of my faves....sometimes i'll drink a little too much and just watch those youtube clips over and over. wish i was there at the time. still havent seen True Testimonial if anyone can link me ;-)

did see them (DKT) when they had whathisname from mudhoney sing with them, a good night but didnt have incendiary power of their earlier days.
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Re: MC5

Post by Hedspace »

I watched the True Testimonial Documentary (its up on one of the torrents) last night with my better half. One of the best music documentary's Ive ever seen..blew us away.

This came on
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwZlKdbtTA4
after it my girlfriend looked slowly around to me .......not a word uttered but her expression was one I wont ever forget :D .
Shes now a true MC5 fan and roll on the day our son turns 11 so he can see this 8) .
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Re: MC5

Post by runcible »

jadams501 wrote:I agree that rock 'n' roll was dangerous -- certainly Elvis had a raw sexual energy at the beginning that I wouldn't have wanted any daughter of mine near -- but that doesn't mean the people threatened by it didn't have a point of view. Parents have always wanted to protect their children, as mine did when they didn't want their cheerful ten year old listening to gangsta rap about hos and drug deals gone bad. I can't blame any of them for preferring their kids listen to Pat Boone rather than Elvis, when they were used to relatively clean-cut big band and country. This was an era before people were desensitized by twenty-four hour cable news, social media, portable devices, and so forth.
My era of musical revolution was English punk in the mid to late 70s. My parents were horrified by the images of the Sex Pistols on TV and, like many other parents, believed the hype and ridiculous stories the press loved to tell - most of which were either untrue or vastly exaggerated. When I announced I was going to buy a Pistols record they were beside themselves. Of course nowadays what punk did seems very mild but at the time it was disgusting to the older generation. I can't imagine how terrifying the MC5 must have been in the late 60s. The difference between them and UK 70s punk is that punk was image-orientated but the MC5 always seemed serious about their attitude and politics. I'd say they came across as genuinely dangerous which sets their scene apart from most others.
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Re: MC5

Post by spzretent »

I can tell what it was like as a 10 year old here in Detroit. The revolutionary aspect was one thing. At the time Detroit was a year or two removed from horrendous race riots that lasted a few weeks and was the beginning of the demise of the city proper. So the revolultionary angle didn't freak people like my parents out much. There was plenty of Black Panther activity here and I believe the White Panthers started here by John Sinclair and a few others.
The proclomations from the very beginnjing of KOTJ really freaked them out because they used the word "motherfuckers".
That was what really got people up in arms as did the original Lp with John Sinclair's liner notes inside the gatefold sleeve. A local departments store here, Hudsons, declined to carry the LP. To which the MC 5 responded by taking ads out in the underground press saying "Fuck Hudson's". Eventually Elektra capitulated to the pressure by removing the liner notes and editing the single anyway. Not sure if there are edited versions of the LP or not.
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Re: MC5

Post by redcloud »

spunder wrote: I did see them (DKT) when they had whathisname from mudhoney sing with them, a good night but didnt have incendiary power of their earlier days.
I saw DKT too with Mark Arm (Mudhoney) and Lisa Kekaula (The Bellrays). It was a good night. Mark Arm did a good job and Kekaula with her massive afro was great to watch and she did a wonderful version of 'Human Being Lawnmower".

But yea, I too really wish I saw them in '68-72. When I see those old videos you can't help but keep looking at everybody. Often I start with Freddy and then move over to Rob and Wayne but then you look behind them and Michael and Dennis are ripping it up in the background. Their energy was incredible.
spzretent wrote: Not sure if there are edited versions of the LP or not.
There are.

I first bought my KOTJ album in the early 80's and it doesn't have the liner notes and the title track is spliced with Crawford's "Brothers & Sisters" from the beginning rant. Electra were pissed the 5 used their logo when they took out the "Fuck Hudson's" ad and Hudson's in return dropped all Electra product. I would think that original unedited versions of the LP sell for $50+ and mint/sealed copies maybe $100+. There are far more copies of the edited versions than unedited. I saw an unedited original LP the other day. Sticker said "worn but plays well" and it was selling for $45.

Nowadays all the reissues will have the liner notes and the unedited tune.
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Re: MC5

Post by jadams501 »

I'm not saying that MC5 weren't a great act that felt more threatening to parental mores, certainly they crystallized a mood and a moment in a really exciting and influential way with more energy than most have had, but did the self-righteous sloganeering really amount to much other than a cool moment on a record? Saying "brothers and sisters" and shouting for revolution, even if in the rush of the moment it felt like the revelatory birth of a new world, doesn't constitute any sort of concrete direction or agenda. Maybe it was exciting to call those riots revolutionary Marxist insurrections and declare solidarity, but what did that accomplish besides besides being part of some great gigs and unique records? No knock on MC5, I'd say this about any band, but ultimately for whatever supporting role music can play in inspiring people with revolutionary views, it is a form of entertainment that rewards attention-grabbing chest-thumping rather than the drudgery and hard work required to actually accomplish complex goals or for most people to get ahead in life.

If I were a parent at that time, particularly in Detroit, I would probably have been worried about the scene my kid was dabbling in. Many of the "panthers" were violent criminals who learned to get headlines and donations by pretending that they were persecuted activists -- I wouldn't want my kid around that. In a society that discouraged profanity, I wouldn't want my kid talking like that, either. Or doing the drugs. Not saying they were right, but I can see where they were coming from. There was plenty of other great music to listen to.

Today I'd be happy if I had a kid listening to MC5, so long as he appreciated it artistically and as a cool snapshot of a time and place, that's not any problem. But if he started taking it really seriously, as in profanely calling for armed revolution and doing the quantities of drugs those guys were on, I'd probably think it was about time he started listening to some Jack Johnson.
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Re: MC5

Post by redcloud »

jadams501 wrote: Saying "brothers and sisters" and shouting for revolution, even if in the rush of the moment it felt like the revelatory birth of a new world, doesn't constitute any sort of concrete direction or agenda. Maybe it was exciting to call those riots revolutionary Marxist insurrections and declare solidarity, but what did that accomplish besides besides being part of some great gigs and unique records?
Hasn't the artist often played an important role in most cultural revolutions? David, Goya, Picasso, Rivera to name a few. The paintings are there to depict a moment and to speak for the masses. It's no different with music whether it be Charlie Parker, Charles Mingus, Bob Dylan, MC5 or Black Flag. The message is essentially the same only the medium is different.
But if he started taking it really seriously, as in profanely calling for armed revolution
I think many of us can look back on things we may have done or said when younger and blush a bit. For the MC5 they have openly admitted that the whole gun thing was a bad idea. I'm sure a lot of it had to do with thinking Huey Newton looked menacing yet had the cool factor and the look they wanted. Plus, I'm sure Sinclair had a say in the staging of those photos. Sinclair's entire anarchic ten-point manifesto was rather ridiculous in how flawed and hazy it was. Obviously it was primarily for shock value and a middle finger at authority. I'm sure even he laughs about it today.

But, to get back to the original point of the thread...at the end of the day the MC5 were a fucking great rock and roll band. 8)
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Re: MC5

Post by charles w »

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Re: MC5

Post by angelsighs »

redcloud wrote: But, to get back to the original point of the thread...at the end of the day the MC5 were a fucking great rock and roll band. 8)
amen to that. the music is what endures for me. the politics were a bit fuzzy, and the more radical aspects largely came from Sinclair. in A True Testimonial, I think it's Dennis who says he wasn't really interested in that side of things and just wanted to play some rock n roll. that said, I do think the band were genuinely angry and passionate, but they were more interested in asking questions than providing answers. nothing wrong with that- it's a good starting point.
jadams501 wrote: ultimately for whatever supporting role music can play in inspiring people with revolutionary views, it is a form of entertainment that rewards attention-grabbing chest-thumping rather than the drudgery and hard work required to actually accomplish complex goals or for most people to get ahead in life.
you are kind of right, but I don't think it's a bad thing. music is a immediate, magical and often transcendent way of expressing things. you are right that it can't often communicate subtleties or nuances of political issues, but a song that tried to communicate stuff like that would likely be boring as fuck- like reading an essay set to music. rock music is better at visceral things, or like I say questioning things as a starting point, or sparking off things..

those photos with the guns do make me cringe, but I'm sure the band themselves just laugh or cringe at them now too.

thanks to this thread, I've been watching a lot of live clips on youtube, and they have just reinforced my opinion on the band :) they were awesome. that footage that simon posted is just incredible- even though Michael had left by that time, they still had it! ironic how Kick out the Jams had become a jam itself, though :)

as an aside, I saw John Sinclair do a talk a few years back at the Latitude festival. he wasn't the angry firebrand you would imagine- more of a warm, gentle soul. he was like the old hippy in your neighbourhood that grows his own veg and has his own power generator or something
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Re: MC5

Post by redcloud »

Not sure if Sinclair is still in Holland but I know he moved to Amsterdam, which may explain his readings and lectures on the European circuit. I would love to hear him talk.
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Re: MC5

Post by angelsighs »

this is one of my favourite MC5 clips. a tiny venue in the UK- it looks like they are playing in a school hall or something!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kna4Pz05KDU

you can really feel the power, and also see Wayne ripping it up clearly
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Re: MC5

Post by MODLAB »

Design.
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Re: MC5

Post by simonkeeping »

There's something beautifully lo-fi about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCGpk7A ... re=related
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Re: MC5

Post by sunray »

I'm going to give this another go: Is there anyone who could sort me out with a copy of the 'A True Testimonial' DVD please?
I will cover all postage/dvd costs. Not sure if I have anything to share (I'm talking non MC5 material) that people here wouldn't already have but who knows!
Thanks in advance.
Nineteen...Nineteen...Six Five
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Re: MC5

Post by Starfish »

Here's a cut-n-pasted article from the Birmingham Evening Mail, August 2000.
NB: Kings Heath, in Birmingham, is where Spacemen 3 recorded their first album, where Toyal Willcox was born, where UB40 played their first gig and where Cluedo was invented. It's a creative hotbed, obviously...


MOVIE makers working on a film about a cult American rock band have
tracked down the group's only British member 28 years after their
final gig - in Kings Heath, Birmingham.
Derek Hughes, aged 53, was the bass player with Detroit-based MC5
from 1971 to the band's last concert at Keele University in December
1972.
The group's anarchic qualities inspired artists like the Sex
Pistols, The Clash and Alice Cooper, so much so that Future/Now films
are producing a feature-length documentary about them.
Derek, now a steel cutter with an Oldbury firm, said: "I don't often
talk about my time with the band but one evening I was persuaded to
show some of my home videos of MC5 to some friends.
"One of them surfed the internet to find out more about the group
and discovered that Future/ Now were planning the film.
"He contacted them and they said they'd been searching for me for
three years! Two of the members, Rob Tyner and Fred Smith, have died,
and at one point they thought I had as well."
Derek is flying to Chicago next month to meet up with the surviving
members and record his memories for the movie.
"I was living in Stuttgart when I originally joined the group,"
Derek said. "They'd fired their bass player and needed a stand-in for
the rest of their European tour.
"At the end of the tour they returned to Detroit but four or five
months later I got a call asking me to join full-time."
Derek played with the band all over the world, including at Wembley
Stadium's first rock show alongside Chuck Berry and Little Richard,
but when vocalist Rob Tyner and drummer Dennis Thompson left because
they didn't want to tour it spelt the beginning of the end.
"We carried on for a while, and I was doing a lot of the lead
singing, but we played our final show at Keele on December 12 1972.
"I was invited to go to Detroit but at the time I didn't feel it was
the right thing to do. Who knows how things might have been different
if I'd have accepted the invitation."
Afterwards, Derek lived in York "doing absolutely nothing for a
year" and then went to California where he found work as a session
musician.
He later re-located to Birmingham, linking up with some pals he met
while in Germany.
"I'm now in a band called The Krack, playing rock covers," he said.
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Re: MC5

Post by simonkeeping »

redcloud wrote:
jadams501 wrote: But, to get back to the original point of the thread...at the end of the day the MC5 were a fucking great rock and roll band. 8)
Never a truer word spoken.
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Re: MC5

Post by natty »

Haha, just thinking of the MC5 I heard this at a techno party I went to recently, made me smile. Skip to 4:20 if you can't be arsed with the tune itself, although I have to say it's a pretty bangin' tune to be fair:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYmUdgH5Vuw
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Re: MC5

Post by sunray »

sunray wrote:I'm going to give this another go: Is there anyone who could sort me out with a copy of the 'A True Testimonial' DVD please?
I will cover all postage/dvd costs. Not sure if I have anything to share (I'm talking non MC5 material) that people here wouldn't already have but who knows!
Thanks in advance.
Massive thankyou goes to Redcloud for posting me out a copy. Won't get to watch it fully until the weekend but really looking forward to it :D Thanks also to those who got in touch offering to help me out with a copy, much appreciated.

Cheers all.
Nineteen...Nineteen...Six Five
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Re: MC5

Post by angelsighs »

I think you MC5 lovers will enjoy this article. I was googling to get some info on what are the best live albums to buy, and it covers their whole catalogue.

http://arthurmag.com/2010/02/24/ten-out-of-5/
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Re: MC5

Post by coffeepotman »

After the official 3 albums I would get Thunder Express, that's pretty killer and then for a reasonably good live boot get Saginaw Civic Center 1-1-70
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Re: MC5

Post by burningwheel »

has it been officially released yet?
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Re: MC5

Post by coffeepotman »

Thunder Express is easy to get and the Saginaw show was part of the MC5 - Purity Accuracy - CD Boxset from Easy Action. I'd pick up Thunder Express, it's pretty killer.
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Re: MC5

Post by angelsighs »

the Saginaw show has also been released as 'Teenage Lust'
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Re: MC5

Post by angelsighs »

for those who may not have seen it... the MC5 doc has made it on to youtube

www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UrP9jxKzOU
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Re: MC5

Post by nickh »

angelsighs wrote:for those who may not have seen it... the MC5 doc has made it on to youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UrP9jxKzOU
Just watched this and even better than I expected, thanks for the heads up!
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Re: MC5

Post by D. »

i'm going to go ahead and say that this is the best rock doc out there. i could be biased (i'm a huge 5 fan) but i think this is how it should be done.

if you haven't checked out the mostly live "Breakout 66" its a good listen. a kinda laid back take on looking at you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaF2C4-zMcA
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Re: MC5

Post by toomilk »

I'm going to have to politely disagree. I love the MC5, but the doc didn't really cut it for me. I've seen a lot of rock docs (I used to organize weekly viewings of different docs, biopics, and other music-related films) and it lacked the cohesive storyline that makes one more than a piece "for fans only."

In my opinion, the best rock doc is Joy Division. If you saw it in a store, you would think it was a low budget, unofficial, bootleg effort with interviews from rock critics and other lowlifes. On the contrary, it is an extremely engaging and beautiful story of a postpunk group from Manchester. Every bit of interview is meaningful, well-articulated and is used to progress a central story. It seems like that last thing is what most rock docs forget about. Most importantly, you don't have to be a fan of Joy Division to enjoy this. It's also on Hulu, so you can see it for free! http://www.hulu.com/watch/157858

I preordered the Big Star documentary last week and I'm looking forward to watching it when it comes next month. A few weeks ago, I watched the documentary on Death (the band). It's an incredible, moving story that I suggest to anyone who has an interest in the band.

(PS: I've actually never heard the full album of Breakout 66, so thanks for that!)
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Re: MC5

Post by runcible »

toomilk wrote:I'm going to have to politely disagree. I love the MC5, but the doc didn't really cut it for me. I've seen a lot of rock docs (I used to organize weekly viewings of different docs, biopics, and other music-related films) and it lacked the cohesive storyline that makes one more than a piece "for fans only."
Blimey - you are a hard taskmaster! I thought it told the story perfectly, and with the endless interludes of the band close up it was riveting. Dennis Thompson is one hell of a scary guy! I came away feeling sad that one of the most crucial rock and roll bands never quite got to where they wanted to be and it ended in a mess. The fact that the doc stimulated genuine emotion in me made me realise what a good film it really is.
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Re: MC5

Post by angelsighs »

I've got to disagree too, I think A True Testimonial is up there with the best rock docs. all the stunning performances and extra footage woven in is great. very comprehensive. I thought the whole cultural/social aspects of Detroit, and the gradual disintegration of the band was enough context, without having to shoehorn anything into some grand narrative.

the Joy Division doc was good but it was mostly talking heads, with relatively little of the bands actual music, I found.

I think Dylan's No Direction Home is still the benchmark for this. it had that overarching narrative (obviously building towards the Judas incident), they managed to access so much great footage, and interview so many key figures. the first half could almost act as a great introduction to folk music as much as Dylan.
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Re: MC5

Post by redcloud »

Yep. I also highly rate the doc. I think it is superb and fills in the blanks nicely. I too am biased as I rate the MC5 and the Elevators as probably the two greatest bands ever ('64-'70 Pretty Things high up there too). So, of course I am going to love it.

I actually watched the film with my son a couple years ago when he first started playing the guitar. He was only 11 but I said to him that anybody who is learning how to play the electric guitar needs to know about the MC5. Yes, I know there are parts about drugs and swearing but...he's in middle school and he lives in a city on the west coast. My guess is he hears that language everyday on the playground and (sadly) he sees drug addicts hanging around the streets in downtown Portland. We talk openly and honestly about these things rather than hide them away. Point being...he was blown away by the sheer power of the band. He thought they were going to be just another "hippie band" that dad likes but was pleasantly surprised by how engaging the film was and "cool that band are". Not that long ago he was at the record store and bought used copies of "Kick Out The Jams" and "High Time" on cd. Essential records for any collection. At age 13 that is high marks. I don't think either came into my collection until I was at least 16 or 17. :D
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Re: MC5

Post by spzretent »

From a local perpsective not only was it a great documentary but there is a lot of rare footage and Detroit history in the film.
If you dont get the power, fury and funk with which they played.....not sure what else would capture it.
For the sheer dysfunction of the band read Brett Calwood's book- Sonically Speaking.
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Re: MC5

Post by BzaInSpace »

angelsighs wrote:for those who may not have seen it... the MC5 doc has made it on to youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UrP9jxKzOU
This video has been removed by the user.

Aw c'mon! :evil: :evil: :evil:

Is it up anywhere else?
O P 8
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Re: MC5

Post by D. »

there is a link earlier in this thread that has it for DL in 16 parts. i clicked the first link and it seems to be functioning. has the DVD extras too. torrents are out there too
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Re: MC5

Post by toomilk »

One thing about True Testimonial that may have soured my first viewing is that I had waited years to see it, so my expectations were very high. I first heard about it when I was in high school (2002, I think) and the few people who claimed they had seen it raved about it and everyone who heard from "a friend of a friend" also said it was supposed to be mind-blowing. I got a copy of it from someone on these boards (I think it was you RedCloud) in 2011 - 9 years of waiting! Must have been in a bad mood or something. Another viewing is in need since my thoughts on it have been shot down here.

In other MC5 news, I recently got Sonic's Rendezvous Band's oddly-titled "Too Much Crank!" "City Slang" is such a great song, it's a shame this band didn't do more.
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Re: MC5

Post by spzretent »

City Slang is one of the greatest singles to ever come out of Detroit. And that is saying something.
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Re: MC5

Post by BzaInSpace »

spzretent wrote:City Slang is one of the greatest singles to ever come out of Detroit. And that is saying something.
'City' Slang is one of the greatest singles ever full stop. A particular favourite of the missus, but we both love, love, love that song.
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Re: MC5

Post by BzaInSpace »

D. wrote:... torrents are out there too
Tried - can't find any that work or actually exist now. The whole thing has been shut down! I assume it's down to the tedious legal nonsense that stopped this coming out in the first place? Bullshit...
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Re: MC5

Post by spzretent »

I just rewatched it tonight. I think is is great doc with a great flow. I just think it goes on a bit too long.
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Re: MC5

Post by redcloud »

toomilk wrote:One thing about True Testimonial that may have soured my first viewing is that I had waited years to see it, so my expectations were very high. I first heard about it when I was in high school (2002, I think) and the few people who claimed they had seen it raved about it and everyone who heard from "a friend of a friend" also said it was supposed to be mind-blowing.
I call this the "Mona Lisa" syndrome. When people first see the famous painting they are inevitably disappointed. Why? Because, they go to the Louvre with expectations of what it must look like and what they want it to look like. They have seen it hundreds of times in books, posters, cards, ties, mouse pads etc. etc. They then see it for themselves and are let down by the fact that it is smaller than expected or that they can't understand why it is so famous (failing to realize when it was painted or the stories and experiences they bring to the painting when they stand before it).

Give the doc another chance. Watch on your own or with your girl. Get a bottle of wine, whiskey, whatever....accept it for what it is and not what you want it to be. Kick out the jams, motherfuckers!
sunray
Known user
Posts: 3131
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:07 pm

Re: MC5

Post by sunray »

Anyone looking for A True Testimonial need only visit the Primal Scream sharing cloud drive as some fine soul has put it up there. Just follow these steps:

1 - Go to www.mega.co.nz
2 - Login with webadelica2013@gmail.com / password = morelight
3 - download whatever you like
4 - Upload folders to the main cloud drive.

Apparently you need to use Google Chrome to get mega.co.nz working properly.

It's in the non-Scream stuff folder.
Nineteen...Nineteen...Six Five
D.
Known user
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 1:17 am

Re: MC5

Post by D. »

sunray wrote:Anyone looking for A True Testimonial need only visit the Primal Scream sharing cloud drive as some fine soul has put it up there. Just follow these steps:

1 - Go to http://www.mega.co.nz
2 - Login with webadelica2013@gmail.com / password = morelight
3 - download whatever you like
4 - Upload folders to the main cloud drive.

Apparently you need to use Google Chrome to get mega.co.nz working properly.

It's in the non-Scream stuff folder.
or http://www.punktorrents.com
toomilk wrote:
In other MC5 news, I recently got Sonic's Rendezvous Band's oddly-titled "Too Much Crank!" "City Slang" is such a great song, it's a shame this band didn't do more.
on one of the live albums i have (either sweet nothing or city slang) an audience member shouts out "too much crank" to which sonic replies "i've heard of worse problems".

Sweet Nothing is the best Rendezvous recording i've heard. necessary
angelsighs
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Posts: 4876
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am

Re: MC5

Post by angelsighs »

new documentary link.. get it while it's hot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfHzMj3Ong4

also, I bought 'Live at the Grande Ballroom 1968' the other day. this has what I assume are a few outtakes from KOTJ, although to my ears the version of Rocket Reducer is exactly the same but with different production. the quality is okay but still a bit rough (you can't really hear the separation between the guitars and how they interlock, like on KOTJ).
then there's a couple of 18 minute blues/free jazz blowouts. these are okay but do drag on a bit.
finally a version of Black To Comm that is the clear highlight. this is a cornerstone of their catalogue in my opinion and I don't know why it never made the album. explosive stuff and crazily influential.
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