Fuck Mark Stewart

[James T]

And fuck the pop group. Has anyone been following his insane social media breakdown? Calling everyone at ATP fake indie cunts and sending private messages to Robert from loop calling him a fascist? They've pulled out, so fuck them.

[toomilk]

Great show they put on though!!

[angelsighs]

I only managed to catch about 3 songs of their set before going to get a good spot for Comets.. it did sound rather good...
Thief of Fire!

[James T]

I was very angry when I wrote this, but he never really redeemed himself...

The show WAS INCREDIBLE though, and I'm glad I went along because the band is more than just his online mental breakdowns.

[James T]

So it seems like mr Stewart finally got in touch with Robert. "Peace prevails" as he put it. Guess it's ok to move on now.

[angelsighs]

I'm still curious to know what the original incident was that triggered this.
can't have come from nowhere

[BzaInSpace]

Pretty hilarious actually. Mark Stewart is an intelligent guy - if he thinks 'Josh' from The Loop is a fascist, well... maybe he knows something we don't.

[James T]

Nothing ATP do should surprise anyone. They try to do everything the right way no doubt, but have made a mess of things also. I have a lot of respect and a lot of annoyance towards them.

Robert doesn't have a clue what it was all about, nor does Mark it seems. 'Josh' doesn't either

[runcible]

Robert doesn't have a clue what it was all about, nor does Mark it seems. 'Josh' doesn't either

When I first met that guy about 25 years ago that's what he was introduced to me as by a friend who'd been in bands with him and that's how he referred to himself. And that is, after all, his 'name'.

[James T]

I think people should just go by their initials anyway

[runcible]

I think people should just go by their initials anyway

Hookworms?

[James T]

JVT, dat's me don't 4get

[BzaInSpace]

There should be more people in music like Mark Stewart. Occasional meltdown accepted. We need more people like him in society full stop - willing to stand up to the bullshit.

I've heard repeatedly that the Spacemen have been asked to reform over the years and I'm pretty sure ATP would have been involved. I reckon that they wanted them to reform for this recent shows but thankfully that'll never happen... so I think The Loop were like the next act to be asked, and they agreed.

Despite what they might say, most musicians are more than willing to sacrifice their integrity for a cheque. No real good comes out of these things, and no matter what bullshit story the bands that do it come out with (ie "unfinished business", "we thought it would be nice to play the songs again" etc) it's ALWAYS, absolutely always because they were named a price that was higher than their integrity.

[BVCP206]

Despite what they might say, most musicians are more than willing to sacrifice their integrity for a cheque. No real good comes out of these things, and no matter what bullshit story the bands that do it come out with (ie "unfinished business", "we thought it would be nice to play the songs again" etc) it's ALWAYS, absolutely always because they were named a price that was higher than their integrity.

So so true

[James T]

Loop had been asked every time since ATP started, so it took them a while to say yes! I really don't think it was for the money, because in fairness they're not doing big shows are they? I also recall conversations from the past which lead me to believe there's more to this than money, but of course money is a factor in everything to some degree.

Mark Stewart is a hypocrite that's what annoyed me. He talks about how ATP isn't independent and all that, but they've played LOADS of corporate festivals supported by big brands. He also picked a stupid time to declare they were pulling out. I don't mind someone speaking their mind, but calling people who are attending necrophiliacs? Saying the lost prophets should be headlining? Too far, by anyone's standards.

[runcible]

Loop had been asked every time since ATP started, so it took them a while to say yes! I really don't think it was for the money, because in fairness they're not doing big shows are they? I also recall conversations from the past which lead me to believe there's more to this than money, but of course money is a factor in everything to some degree.

Hmmm. What about ticket prices? Loop was one of the more expensive tickets I have bought this year. A reformed English band playing in Leeds, and it's £15? Jonathan Wilson, a successful touring US musician is only £12.50. The Icarus Line were £9 - also from the US. Vibravoid from Germany was £4!

So I think money is a factor. I was dead keen so paid happily but I did think they were very expensive tickets... Even more so when you think I left after 25 minutes but that was my decision of course!

[James T]

Well, the ticket price is decided by the promoter of course. It is based on the amount the band wants as well as a number of other things obviously, but I don't think £14/15 is a lot. From booking bands myself, I know that I have sometimes had to offer more to people who are making less than the people charging less, there's a number of factors. Also, I know people who demand quite a large fee but are only just getting by because of other costs.

Like I said, money is ALWAYS a factor in getting stuff to happen. Some promoters absolutely rinse the public of money to a bigger extent than the bands ever would, so I don't mind if they try to get as much as they can out of it.

Icarus line were playing venues which demand a lower rental fee, so thats an instant impact on ticket cost. Also, if the promoter is in house that lowers the cost. We've also got to factor in the amount of people the Loop show needs to pay, there's 4 people playing and their own touring sound guy. Splitting the cost between 4 doesn't go too far when they have to pay a driver and sound guy also. I get that it's annoying having to pay more, but its easy to work out the reasons why.

Again, of course this wouldn't happen if money was on offer, but I don't think they're getting any more out of it than is standard by any means. Certain reunions (mbv, neutral milk hotel) rake in a fortune; though at the end of the day I don't mind. They play the show, I dig it.

[James T]

PS: If it was for the money, you'd be stupid to get mixed up with atp. It's likely you;d have to wait a long long while to get it off them.

[runcible]

Icarus line were playing venues which demand a lower rental fee, so thats an instant impact on ticket cost. Also, if the promoter is in house that lowers the cost. We've also got to factor in the amount of people the Loop show needs to pay, there's 4 people playing and their own touring sound guy. Splitting the cost between 4 doesn't go too far when they have to pay a driver and sound guy also. I get that it's annoying having to pay more, but its easy to work out the reasons why.

I don't buy that James. I have seen several shows at the Brudenell this year.

The Soft Pack (band touring from the USA) £8
Mono Festival (Hookworms, Carlton Melton, White Manna, Gnod, Mugstar and more. 8 hour show. (i.e. bands from all over) £12
Jonathan Wilson (band touring from the US) £12.50
Loop (band touring from... London) £15

You do the maths. All these shows featured more people than Loop had in their party yet theirs was the highest ticket cost. So I am unconvinced.

[James T]

I don't think the ticket price is so expensive, and they don't all like in the UK now either. I think the low gig was like £22 at Brudenell which shocked me, but still it's not like they're raking it in by any means.

I don't know where this thread is going but I like it. Nice to have some discussion!

[James T]

And I have no idea how the festival at Brudenell charged so little, but the highest charging act on the line up is from Leeds so maybe it brought the cost down. A very good price and that happens in Manchester too for good all dayers and festivals, I think the bands are payed little for those types of set up but it makes sense for them to take it for a bigger crowd / event on the way through on your. Sells a lot of merch too.

[sunray]

Despite what they might say, most musicians are more than willing to sacrifice their integrity for a cheque. No real good comes out of these things, and no matter what bullshit story the bands that do it come out with (ie "unfinished business", "we thought it would be nice to play the songs again" etc) it's ALWAYS, absolutely always because they were named a price that was higher than their integrity.

Extending the logic, the same accusation has to be applied to the 'Don't Look Back' gigs. Which in turn implies that Jason sacrificed his integrity for a nice cheque by doing the L&G concerts.

As for ticket prices, well it's the age old topic isn't it. I don't think us punters will ever be truly convinced by the arguments laid out before us.

[angelsighs]

interesting debate here. £15 quid is still pretty good in the scheme of things no?
I paid £30 for Pil earlier in the year. that was ridiculous.
who are we to know how the finances work anyway- there could be all sorts of factors feeding into that figure. doesn't the promoter set it a lot of the time?

I don't begrudge money being one factor in a reformation. as long as it's not the ONLY or main factor. in these times I am sure people don't wanna be pissing money away.

[spzretent]

Extending the logic, the same accusation has to be applied to the 'Don't Look Back' gigs. Which in turn implies that Jason sacrificed his integrity for a nice cheque by doing the L&G concerts.

I disagree. The Dont Look Back gigs are done by bands who are still touring and putting out records. The demand is there. Its something different for the fans of these bands to want to pay money to go see. Regarding Jason specifically a lot of folks got paid for those gigs. Orchestra, back up singers etc. I am quite sure he didn't get wealthy off those gigs.

Reformation is another thing. Thankfully that has all been put to rest regarding the Spacemen. I was never a fan of these reunion gigs.

[Greeny]

Thankfully that has all been put to rest regarding the Spacemen. I was never a fan of these reunion gigs.

Has it? What have I missed?

I know Jason has said he'd never do it but he wouldn't be the first musician to change his mind!!

[James T]

I'm not sure the LAGWAFIS gigs were overly lucrative either in the end, from what was said in interviews and the expense of it all. It was nice though, enjoyed those a lot.

[mojo filters]

Extending the logic, the same accusation has to be applied to the 'Don't Look Back' gigs. Which in turn implies that Jason sacrificed his integrity for a nice cheque by doing the L&G concerts.

I disagree. The Dont Look Back gigs are done by bands who are still touring and putting out records. The demand is there. Its something different for the f ans of these bands to want to pay money to go see. Regarding Jason specifically a lot of folks got paid for those gigs. Orchestra, back up singers etc. I am quite sure he didn't get wealthy off those gigs.

I thought his likening of those gigs to the catering industry in interview was sufficient subtext to give us an idea of his thinking, in hindsight of those gigs.

I certainly enjoyed the 2011 Royal Albert Hall "Sweet Heart, Sweet Light" preview gig a lot more than 2009's LAGWAFIS Gateshead Sage Hall 1 gig, despite there being validity in the argument that the latter was a technically superior performance in just about every aspect ... but the immeasurable intangibles that combined to make the former a far better all-round concert experience are indisputable to my mind.

As our American brethren might say - your mileage may vary!

[pale blue eyes]

[/quote]
I disagree. The Dont Look Back gigs are done by bands who are still touring and putting out records. The demand is there. Its something different for the fans of these bands to want to pay money to go see. Regarding Jason specifically a lot of folks got paid for those gigs. Orchestra, back up singers etc. I am quite sure he didn't get wealthy off those gigs.[/quote]

hmmm, i don't necessarily blame the artist, it's more down to the fans. the demand is definitely there for these gigs. it just saddens me that people would rather spend the evening reliving the past. one of my favorite quotes from J. has always been:

"We call it ‘battle re-enactment.’ Civil War guys fighting it out on a field. That’s not something I’m into music for! I’m not motivated by money or a ready-made audience. If the audience wants to come where we go—we’re not sitting and waiting for you."

this was in reference to a SP3 reunion bit i feel it sums up the whole 'Don't Look Back' series including the LAGWAFIS gigs. but don't get me wrong, i understand that bands especially in today's age NEED to make money but it just seems that now that Pandora's box has been opened, what's next a Loop reunion?

[spzretent]

Thankfully that has all been put to rest regarding the Spacemen. I was never a fan of these reunion gigs.

Has it? What have I missed?

I know Jason has said he'd never do it but he wouldn't be the first musician to change his mind!!

Stay tuned for a Sonic interview which he mentions it. Or glad leaving SP3 reputation right where it is. I guess I jumped the gun a bit here.

[mojo filters]

{snip}
Or glad leaving SP3 reputation right where it is.

Amen!

(every pun intended)

[Chris Barrus]

It's worth noting that the market for these shows isn't solely "middle age fans who saw them 20 years ago and are annoyed that they need cash."

I first noticed this at My Bloody Valentine's set at FYF this year - at least a third of the crowd were young enough to have been conceived to Loveless. Nevertheless MBV was their band, and they were amped for it. Amazingly charged up show until the PA blew out, but as everyone was leaving I couldn't help but notice just how many kids were shouting about "OMG I finally got to see them!"

I got to see The Kinks a couple of times in the 80s - maybe not the best time to see them, but goddamn it I didn't care because it was The Kinks.

Genuinely excited to see Loop at Austin Psych Fest. Never got a chance to see them before.

[runcible]

I don't think the ticket price is so expensive, and they don't all like in the UK now either. I think the low gig was like £22 at Brudenell which shocked me, but still it's not like they're raking it in by any means.

Seeing Wooden Shjips - a band from San Francisco - tonight at the Brudenell. £12. That's about right. My point is I can't work out where the Loop £15 ticket came from. It wasn't that full either, yet the Shjips tend to sell the same venue out. For less money.

[BzaInSpace]

If you reckon distance travelled and crew size are the deciding factors in what a band can charge then you should be asking why the Fall tickets are £7 more than Loop when they've only come from Salford in a van......

C'mon - that's Mark E Smith. Normal rules don't apply - and somebody's gotta pay for his beer.

I don't really care about the endless number of bands reforming - I remember it seemed pretty novel at one point, I got to see Jane's Addiction around 2002 in Glasgow which was incredible - but now every shitty act ever is in the reforming and playing on the 'classic' album circuit, including the likes of Shed Seven and... Ned's Atomic Dustbin. Bad times.

Ultimately it's fair enough - hey, who am I to deny somebody their day in the sun, especially after getting no money the first time they went out (Stooges, Stone Roses)?
I just wish more artists would be honest about the reasons why they're doing it. No fucking way do you suddenly twenty years down the line call up your ex-band mates that you bitterly fell-out with over drugs/girls/'musical differences' and that you've ignored ever since and decide to all do it again because "the time was right..."

Has any reformations actually been good, especially after a long time? The Stooges/Iggy & The Stooges I've mentioned already, but they're like the exception. I'm not counting MBV by the way as they never officially disbanded. Our years are merely weeks for Mr K Shields...

[pale blue eyes]

It's worth noting that the market for these shows isn't solely "middle age fans who saw them 20 years ago and are annoyed that they need cash."

I first noticed this at My Bloody Valentine's set at FYF this year - at least a third of the crowd were young enough to have been conceived to Loveless. Nevertheless MBV was their band, and they were amped for it. Amazingly charged up show until the PA blew out, but as everyone was leaving I couldn't help but notice just how many kids were shouting about "OMG I finally got to see them!"

I got to see The Kinks a couple of times in the 80s - maybe not the best time to see them, but goddamn it I didn't care because it was The Kinks.

Genuinely excited to see Loop at Austin Psych Fest. Never got a chance to see them before.

REALLY? i saw the Valentines on 4 separate occasions (including the first gigs in the states) and i saw more male pattern baldness than young whipper snappers that's for sure. oddly enough that was the topic of conversation after all the gigs, how they didn't seem to attract a younger crowd. we left each show feeling that they were "our band", for "our" generation. of course this was ludicrous drug/drink talk but none the less it sure felt like it.


i agree about the Kinks, i would have loved to seen them at any period!

also, i have never forgave myself for missing Love (err Arthur Lee and a cover band!) do Forever Changes (as the opening act for the Zombies).

[runcible]

Wooden Shjips play the Brudenell once a year though, like clockwork. Loop split up, what, 20+ years ago? Surely you get that the demand is at least £3 a ticket higher for a band that broke up so long ago compared to a band that have played the same venue 4 times in the last 4 years, regardless of how far they've travelled.

Loop have said they'll be doing this for a year max, so I totally get why their fees would be high, you can get demand higher fees for such limited exclusivity. This is potentially the last time anyone will ever get chance to see them, whereas you can almost guarantee WS will be back in the next 12-18 months, probably at the Brude again.

If you reckon distance travelled and crew size are the deciding factors in what a band can charge then you should be asking why the Fall tickets are £7 more than Loop when they've only come from Salford in a van...

I disagree. In fact your points seem to back up mine.

Loop command a higher price because they are only around for a year? Really? So we have to pay more for the privilege? Come on - that sound like they are trying to take advantage of the brevity of their appearance and reeks of 'only in it for the money'. I don't go along with that.

I mentioned distance because out of the blue Loop come up with a hefty price tag compared to bands who travel further, but that's not the only factor. You compare them to The Fall. Interesting. Loop, a band who barely made a splash 20+ years ago against a band with almost 4 decades of history? Come on! Don't me wrong - I loved Loop the first time round but they were hardly important. The Fall are absolutely crucial in terms of music history.

A band with history and importance have a higher entrance fee which is often down to demand. That goes for The Fall or Spiritualized. As I mentioned before the Shjips sold the venue out last night and Loop didn't - which is a factor. The Shjips have already been going longer than Loop in the early 90s too - which isn't a factor, but it's interesting.

[Greeny]

Thankfully that has all been put to rest regarding the Spacemen. I was never a fan of these reunion gigs.

Has it? What have I missed?

I know Jason has said he'd never do it but he wouldn't be the first musician to change his mind!!

Stay tuned for a Sonic interview which he mentions it. Or glad leaving SP3 reputation right where it is. I guess I jumped the gun a bit here.

Ah - OK, thanks. Thought I'd gone mad!!

FWIW I think reunions are like any other aspect of music, some of it you're gonna like, some not. I have rarely seen my best mate more excited ahead of the Loop show in Brighton and on the night it was a performance with an intensity I (who missed them the first time around) thought would rival any 'new' band you'd see. So by that measure it's a tick as far as I'm concerned.

All the kids downloading 'free' music want to be asking themselves why there is no hinterland of good 'indie' bands behind the few major label hype-ees like Arctic Monkeys etc. If there was, there'd be less of a gap for the old guys to exploit...

P.S. Whatever Jason feels, for a majoirty of fans I know the L&G shows were utterly merited due to the way he managed to truly bring the songs on the album to life, in particular those that were rarely or never in the toured set of the era.

[runcible]

This could round in circles forever, haha.

Yes, you do generally pay more for the privilege of seeing a band that hasn't played for 20 years, and yes you do pay more for the exclusivity of possibly never getting chance to see them ever again. I never argued that Loop hadn't reformed for the money either, that was never my argument. My argument was the fairness of ticket prices.

Without wanting to sound like a penis, unless you've put on a show, played in a touring band, or you've been a booking agent in the last few years at this level then I'm not sure what you're basing your knowledge of the current gig climate on, you can only view it purely from a consumer level. I can tell you that for £15 a ticket at the Brudenell Social Club, their fee will not have been that astronomical, you'd probably be quite surprised. Just a quick breakdown of the economics: if they sold out the Brude, that'd be £15 x 400 (the capacity) which = £6000. They didn't sell it out either, so it's less than that to start with. Say they sold 300 tickets (I don't know, I wasn't there), that's only £4500. 100% of the profit won't have gone to them either, Nath has a club to run. It's usually about an 80/20 split between band and promoter. That's before you take off any of the promoter's costs too, i.e. sound engineer, rider, hotels for full band and crew, posters and other promotion etc. That comes from the net. What's left for the band will then have more deductions via their driver/van, sound man, any roadies, tour manager, and the booking agent will take 10% of their fee. You then split what's left 4 ways between the band members and they're probably receiving nine tenths of fuck all. I hardly reckon this tour is the big cash-in everyone might think...

Sorry, this wasn't meant to be a rant, I only felt the need to pipe up because I found it really weird that you picked up on what I'd consider to be a pretty fairly priced show, out of all the overpriced shows in the world that there are to take issue with. I reckon it'd be unfair for you to say that your opinion isn't more than slightly influenced by the fact that you didn't enjoy the set..

All fair points. But I still don't agree. Your argument suggests every band should charge that kind of entrance fee.

That show was a lot more expensive than bands I'd consider to be more senior. I simply compared the ticket price to other shows I have seen in the same venue this year. Even if it hadn't been so poor I'd have felt it was expensive.

If my views aren't relevant because I've not been in a band and toured etc. then I'll leave the debate now. I am indeed basing my argument on the hundreds of gigs I've seen over the years and their ticket prices, which I think is more than fair. But you are saying that looking at it from a 'consumer level' doesn't count, which I don't agree with at all.

[spzretent]

Fair points?
That was the most condescending post I have read on this message board in a long time.

MattBenn: nice try but you sound like a penis.

[James T]

I think you did make valid points, but so does Runcible. Let's not get annoyed with one another or feel uncomfortable posting here. This is what this forum misses sometimes, a proper conversation!

I also think some of the cost difference is because of the size of the tour etc... Wooden Shjips and similar bands coming from a long way will have a big number of shows across europe and will make bigger fees probably in places like london and paris etc... As well as that they have have recorded output to give them extra finance and probably more merch. They can do a tour every year and it will sell well, they don't need to charge any more and I'm glad they clearly charged a reasonable fee. Loop cannot tour every year like the shjips I'm certain. I think it just makes sense it costs a little (really just a little amount isn't it) more so it makes it worth their while. I think to take the time out from what is probably quite a different life nowadays to go back to the Loop circus is a big step for them, and something that they can't afford to do without assurances they will have some money left over afterwards to get back to other stuff. Robert may make a minimal salary from other music ventures, but the others? I don't know, maybe they had normal jobs they had to leave and have families to support. I have no idea though, all speculation. This is something to think about though in a way that a short reunion would demand a slightly (just slightly) higher fee.

I actually expected the shows to cost a bit more than £15 to be honest! I'm always surprised when shows are less than that these days.

[mojo filters]

I think that Matt brought a considerable amount of highly pertinent information to this debate. In addition he made the observation that £15 is not a huge sum to charge, and only a couple of quid more than other examples given as reasonable prices. If he did it in a slightly undiplomatic way, that's a slightly different issue which in no way invalidates the specific new info he brought to the table.

I would point out that as a band that has not played together for 20 years, Loop have an added expense for the relatively limited no of mostly small venues they are going to play.

Unlike bands that gig regularly, they will have had to fine-tune their performance after initial rehearsals, at a full-production rehearsal facility to get the band and their technical crew properly ready - especially for such a key gig as the headline ATP festival so early in the run of gigs. Getting that one right will have major implications for ensuring a good turnout at their subsequent bookings. Even just a couple of days to hire either a full production rehearsal space, or an actual venue that's suitably specified in the technical and acoustic sense (and also pay their tech crew for that time), will incur further costs on top of those already mentioned.

Even if ATP fronted that expense they'll have to recoup it somewhere, and given these were the last weekender events of their type it's clear they are not making enough money from them to make it worthwhile continuing.

I really don't think anyone's intentionally being condescending, nor devaluing anyone else's rights as a consumer to query the legitimate matter of live music ticket prices and any apparent incongruity such as that expressed here.

One of the attractions of this place is the varied and well-informed nature of the vast majority of contributions. Another is the equally attractive friendly tone which characterises such!

[mojo filters]

Fair points?
That was the most condescending post I have read on this message board in a long time.

MattBenn: nice try but you sound like a penis.

I think that's rather harsh and unkind. I'm sure there have been at least a few properly condescending posts in the not too distant past. I can think of one contributor who's absurdly supercilious posts I consider condescending just from seeing the "style", before I've even read the content! To the best of my knowledge no ones ever called out the party concerned for their unquestionably curious behavior!

[spzretent]

Not the way I read it at all.
What I read is someone at the age of 20-ish speaking as a grizzled veteran of the rock circuit devaluing the opinion of those not in a current touring band situation. Perhaps wrongly? Perhaps not.
Does the opinion of those of us elder statesman who have been to several gigs, some of us numbering in the 500+ gigs count for nothing. This includes some of who have put on gigs and dealt with promoters.
What confounds me on a personal note is how Loop, who were not all that relevant 20 years ago, have had time turn them into something far bigger. Headlining ATP? Are you fucking kidding me? Trying to keep my opinon to myself on this band I am flabbergasted by the fawning over a third rate Spacemen 3 wanna be band. They weren't that good in the 90's. I saw them. They were loud. I'll give them that. Good? Erm.... an emphatic no. And they never threatened to break America. It must be nice to rewrite history 20 years later Robert/Josh/Whatever his name is. They were signed to a US label. Breaking the US? Umm...ok. But no. Ask Beggars Banquet/RCA just how close Loop were to "breaking" the US market.
Getting back on point there is no way I would ever want to discourage anyone from expressing their opinion here. On the other hand if I disagree I also have the right to post. Perhaps that is my MC5/Stooges/Detroit confrontational nature.
Maybe its in the water here?

[spzretent]

Fair points?
That was the most condescending post I have read on this message board in a long time.

MattBenn: nice try but you sound like a penis.

I think that's rather harsh and unkind. I'm sure there have been at least a few properly condescending posts in the not too distant past. I can think of one contributor who's absurdly supercilious posts I consider condescending just from seeing the "style", before I've even read the content! To the best of my knowledge no ones ever called out the party concerned for their unquestionably curious behavior!

Its the internet. If you cant call out out someone here for awkward or condescending behavior where can you? I dont want to turn this into a BJM style message board but sometimes you just have to step up and speak your mind. I just happened to disagree and Matt teed this one up with his post. Sarcasm took over. But you know what? At the end of the day I'm still gonna love my Hookworms records.

[James T]

I don't get the whole spacemen 3 wanna be thing really, but that's just me maybe.

Loop are entirely relevant now to those people who want to see them, as they were then to people who wanted to see them back then. I don't see this as rewriting history or as them trying to. People wanted them to play some shows and they have.

[BzaInSpace]

I think that's rather harsh and unkind. I'm sure there have been at least a few properly condescending posts in the not too distant past. I can think of one contributor who's absurdly supercilious posts I consider condescending just from seeing the "style", before I've even read the content! To the best of my knowledge no ones ever called out the party concerned for their unquestionably curious behavior!

Really? C'mon Mojo, who is it? Don't be shy...

[James T]

Hope it ain't me

[spzretent]

James. I totally get that if there is demand people will go see a band. I still go see the Stones.
Regarding the breaking America bit I was sent an interview with the leader of Loop. Not sure his actual name or what he wants to be called now.
Maybe it was The Quiteus. He mentioned how they were close to breaking America. His words.
Another band people used to name check around here was Swervedriver. They got back together. That was little more than a blip. In my shop Swervedriver sold circles around Loop. Spacemen records we could never seem to get unless i went over to London and traded for them. So from a retail perspective in the 90's I am stunned at the adoration for Loop. Maybe I went overboard there. Maybe. But to see two bands from that era get back together and one garner so much press and one almost none at all is surprising to me. The only difference here is the whole ATP involvement.
Oh, I am not comparing Swevedriver and Loop musically. But they were always lumped in with the Spacemen back in the day.

[niamhm]

Not the way I read it at all.
What I read is someone at the age of 20-ish speaking as a grizzled veteran of the rock circuit devaluing the opinion of those not in a current touring band situation. Perhaps wrongly? Perhaps not.
Does the opinion of those of us elder statesman who have been to several gigs, some of us numbering in the 500+ gigs count for nothing. This includes some of who have put on gigs and dealt with promoters.
What confounds me on a personal note is how Loop, who were not all that relevant 20 years ago, have had time turn them into something far bigger. Headlining ATP? Are you fucking kidding me? Trying to keep my opinon to myself on this band I am flabbergasted by the fawning over a third rate Spacemen 3 wanna be band. They weren't that good in the 90's. I saw them. They were loud. I'll give them that. Good? Erm.... an emphatic no. And they never threatened to break America. It must be nice to rewrite history 20 years later Robert/Josh/Whatever his name is. They were signed to a US label. Breaking the US? Umm...ok. But no. Ask Beggars Banquet/RCA just how close Loop were to "breaking" the US market.
Getting back on point there is no way I would ever want to discourage anyone from expressing their opinion here. On the other hand if I disagree I also have the right to post. Perhaps that is my MC5/Stooges/Detroit confrontational nature.
Maybe its in the water here?

Thanks for shitting all over my tastes then , need to remember and run it past you first then the next time I`m thinking about buying a ticket for something, so the next time your speaking about something I consider beneath me it will be okay just to fire into it and call it all the bullshit under the sun will it? cause I seem to remember you getting your panty`s in a twist about somebody dissing what you liked earlier this yr, double standards?

[Greeny]

I reckon Mark Stewart himself would certainly enjoy the way this thread has progressed...

[niamhm]

I reckon Mark Stewart himself would certainly enjoy the way this thread has progressed...

the way this thread has progressed was as predictable as night following day...

[spzretent]

Thanks for shitting all over my tastes then , need to remember and run it past you first then the next time I`m thinking about buying a ticket for something, so the next time your speaking about something I consider beneath me it will be okay just to fire into it and call it all the bullshit under the sun will it? cause I seem to remember you getting your panty`s in a twist about somebody dissing what you liked earlier this yr, double standards?

I will start by saying my name is Alan. I dont like Loop. That out of the way.
How is this predictable? Its called dialogue. Or even an argument.
You cant come on here and speak your mind if it doesn't fit in a certain box? Or if I take umbrage with something said? Or god forbid express your own opinion?
Lighten up people. Its the fucking internet. Hardly something to take so seriously. Dialogue is good. Ultimately to be taken with a grain of salt.
I wish more people here would take Sunray's approach to disagreement and dialogue. He appreciates it, sees where others are coming from and moves on. As do I. I hold no grudges. Hell, there are few here I have gone at it with pretty heavily yet we remain friendly and even pm each other. And help each other out whether it was for the t shirt just done, Shonn/Pale Blue Eyes or beer recommendations, Shaun.
Man, life is just to short.

[niamhm]

Thanks for shitting all over my tastes then , need to remember and run it past you first then the next time I`m thinking about buying a ticket for something, so the next time your speaking about something I consider beneath me it will be okay just to fire into it and call it all the bullshit under the sun will it? cause I seem to remember you getting your panty`s in a twist about somebody dissing what you liked earlier this yr, double standards?

Nope. Its called dialogue.
I will start by saying my name is Alan. I dont like Loop. That out of the way.
You cant come on here and speak your mind if it doesn't fit in a certain box? Or if I take umbrage with something said? Or god forbid express your own opinion?
Lighten up people. Its the fucking internet. Hardly something to take so seriously. Dialogue is good. Ultimately to be taken with a grain of salt.
I wish more people here would take Sunray's approach to disagreement and dialogue. He appreciates it, sees where others are coming from and moves on. As do I. I hold no grudges. Hell, there are few here I have gone at it with pretty heavily yet we remain friendly and even pm each other. And help each other out whether it was for the t shirt just done, Shonn/Pale Blue Eyes or beer recommendations, Shaun.
Man, life is just to short.

Quite, I don`t hold no grudges either , but folks do get a touch defensive when someone rips into something they like a lot, I`m sure you see that,and as you acknowledged to James you where pretty full on, I had stayed out of this thread until you turned your little flame thrower on, anyway , I`m off to nurse my hangover , have a nice day

[James T]

I'm pretty surprised by all this, I thought we were all just having a good natter!

Either way, this thread was born of my anger at finding out en-route to a festival that the main band I booked to see had pulled out and were indirectly calling me a necrophiliac and directly calling people a lot of other horrible stuff all over the internet. It seems there was quite the turn around over the course of a few hours and it was sorted out, but I think it was well worthy of a fuck you to Mr Stewart. He's made his kinda lame apologies and everyone is getting on with whatever now. I loved the show the pop group ended up playing but I will always think Mr Stewart is pretty much a moron now which is a shame.

I don't see anyone here as particularly being out of line with what they said but now it's got a bit crazy. Still, keep up the nice chat and don't pull a mark stewart on anyone here. You bloody fascists.

[Laz69]

Would this be a particularly bad time to point out that have to agree with Spzretent in his general view of Loop? I found their records first time round to be ok at best and have NEVER been able to understand the hype, never mind the comparison with Spacemen 3. Whether they had similar influences or not, they have always seemed miles apart for me so that always puzzled me. I have never heard very much about their live shows in years gone by other than they were loud, whereas i've heard and read incredible things (and some not so!) about SP3. They just seems so very one dimensional to me.

I do, however, think that £15 is very reasonable for a gig that, due to their notoriety, would be a big enough draw fan-wise without making the fans feel like they were being robbed blind and that the band were cashing in. If they had came back and demanded £25 for the shows i think a lot of even their most ardent of fans would have felt a little bit disgruntled. I've had enough of paying £20+ for shows and will probably not do so again unless Spiritualized come by, so i don't think its overly expensive.

Anyway, was just my tuppence worth.

[spzretent]

James!
You created a monster!

It would be cool to see this amount of passion, anger in the City vs United thread.

Laz:
I suppose if you look at it this way. Why are Loop charging 20% more than bands flying over and touring the UK?
Some bands are greedier than others. I heard Mazzy Star wanted some ridiculous guaranty for shows here. They have been gone 20-ish years. No one in this market would pony up. Either they came way down or something was worked out.
From a dollars ands sense perspective it doesn't really make sense. It has to be based on what Loop wanted to book the show. The fact this was a reunion tour spun off ATP shouldn't make a difference. On the other hand I am sure the extra 3 quid didn't disuade anyone from going.
At the end of the day we got some lively banter back and forth.

[James T]

I can't get so worked up in the City v United. I'm far too emotionally involved with the blue side of Manchester to keep my cool and have a real good argument. Plus, I doubt I could argue that the ticket cost is spread among the players giving them only a modest wage...

[spzretent]

Same over here. All athletes have forced a lot of regular folks out of live sporting events. Baseball remains the one sport fans most fans can still afford. That is because of the 162 game schedule.
I was trained early on by my UK friends to be ABU. Once Leeds went down I settled on Man City. Mainly because I spend so much time in Manchester it was fun to go against the grain.
In fact I went to a pub with my mate who is a United fan to watch the Manchester Derby about 3 years ago I think. Unbeknownst to me I was the on City fan in the pub. It was the match where Rooney had that ridiculous bicycle kick goal.
I managed to survive that as my buddy laughed his head off.

[James T]

City is really affordable, and they do pretty good package deals for cup games and stuff also. Child and OAP tickets are often only about £10/15 too. If you're in Manchester give me a shout and I'll sort some tickets out.

[Aquarian-Time]

On the flipside I watch Crewe Alex in league 1 (level 3 to our American friends) thats £21 pay on the day, £3 programme, sill money for food and thats before a beer and getting there. An expensive afternoon for what is often not great enetertainment. £15 to watch Loop feels like a steal to me !

[BzaInSpace]

Being a veteran of the Primal Scream Wars you get to have a bit of a thick skin, and expect to take a bit of heat (EVIL HEAT?) against the band you love every now and again.

The Loop? Not bothered. Was too young for them 'back in the day', and have zero interest in them now. To (probably) quote Muscles... LOOP = POOP.

Glad I got that out there!

Hell, it could be worse - I could be fan of the Flaming Lips.

Ultimately this place is best when it stimulates lively and engaging debate, crucially with different but valid viewpoints. This thread is a good example I think. Shame some here have taken this to heart. Gotta remember, this place would be bloody boring if there was consensus on everything...

[runcible]

Blimey. Come home from work to read all sorts here!

I may not have enjoyed the Loop show in Leeds recently but I was a massive fan for the first bit of their career. I also have what must be a complete Loop collection with test pressings and various rare bits. I absolutely loved them. Saw them play some absolutely amazing shows back then, one at ULU in May 1988 which I won't ever forget and another where they supported Wire and were booed throughout, but they just ploughed on regardless. So I was excited by their reunion and because of that I felt it fair to say just how awful I thought their Brudenell set was because I never expected it. I felt so disappointed having wanted it to be a triumph. Even if I had loved it I would have been bothered by the ticket price - I still see no justification for them to be more expensive than other bands I've seen in the same place, so I raised the issue. It didn't put me off going but when I bought those tickets I was a little taken aback at the cost..

As for people dissing others tastes - so what? Isn't it better to have more individual tastes than to join in with what everyone else likes? People seem to love that South American Sp3 and related comp - I just don't like that at all. But no worry. I'm a Grateful Dead fan - I get loads of flak for that. Same when I say I love the mid 70s Fleetwood Mac period over the Peter Green era. No one should be put off music by what others think, and personally I rather revel in it when people really dislike the music I'm enjoying - they can shit on it all they like as it doesn't bother me!

[niamhm]

All MattBenns posts have vanished, I wonder why that could be?

[spzretent]

Because he asked.

[angelsighs]

I think this has blown out of proportion a bit. first of all, people think that £15 is a lot to pay for a ticket? really?? even just at the same venue, it's more expensive than some, cheaper than others. I'm sure it's not an exact science to price tickets, and the promoter has a lot of say in what level they think they can pitch it at. the idea that Loop were rubbing their hands with glee at this windfall of untold riches?
(also I assume the reason the Psych all dayer was good value is that all the bands were in the area anyway for the Liverpool Psych Fest)

Loop's audience has obviously grown since they split up, this has happened to a lot of bands. if you make music that seems to last and endure, your audience will grow a bit as younger fans get into you. the internet lets music fans search out bands like this.
but let's also remember that ATP is a cult festival. quite a big deal in our little bubble of 'alternative music', but it's hardly Glastonbury. apparently the capacity for Camber Sands is under 3,000. (that said Loop did attract a good proportion of that on the main stage). let's look at some past headliners/curators- Neutral Milk Hotel? TV on The Radio? Deerhunter? couldn't name you one song.

finally, going back to a point much earlier in the thread, I really don't agree with the automatic animosity towards bands reforming. this idea that all they have to do is reform and they have lost all 'integrity' is kind of teenage stuff to be honest.
people form a band, they play together, eventually it goes tits up. and some point in the future they may decide to do it again, if all the factors fall into place (one of which may be money, yes.). some reunions are shit, some are fantastic.

[BzaInSpace]

The point I raised earlier (and clarified once already!) is nothing to with "automatic animosity against bands reforming", and nor do I think this has even been mentioned. What I was complaining about, in a somewhat bad-tempered manner, was how a lot of bands justify the reasons they are reforming and will say just about anything other than... it's for the money.

There are some amazing acts that I wouldn't have ever gotten to see if they hadn't reformed.... I think. I know I saw Jane's Addiction (who were amazing) and the latter version of Love but that's probably about it actually... ah well.

Of more interest was my query which has pretty much gone unanswered - which bands who've reformed have been personally satisfying? I would be willing to bet there aren't that much.

I was quite new to music in 1996 but I remember the big announcement that the Sex Pistols were reforming. This was when it was something of a novelty. The title of the subsequent tour still makes me laugh - The Filthy Lucre Tour.

Well, at least they were honest.

And sighs, "blown out of proportion" is right. It was suggested to the Hookworms fella that in deleting all his posts it would leave massive holes and gaps through the forum, but he was adamant.

Now, when's Dumpy's Rusty Nuts reforming?

[spzretent]

I saw that Sex Pistols tour. It was a bit like watching a cartoon. But hey! I can say I saw the Sex Pistols. A whole bunch of us were downtown and they were playing a 10,000 seat arena which had about 2500 people. So the promotoer had people trying to get anyone into the arena. There were 8 of us. I think we paid $25 for all 8 tickets or a little over $3 each. Then were heard they were just giving them away for free once the show started.