Sacred Cows

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simonkeeping
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Sacred Cows

Post by simonkeeping » Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:57 am

So I came up with this idea after thinking about great/legendary bands music that for whatever reason you just don't gel with, and not for want of trying. I think it would be better if we can use this as a open amnesty and not having people wading in to start slating people for not liking X,Y and Z bands.

For me personally, I have never been able to connect with the Doors music. aside from The End and Crystal ship which I love, i find their music a bit too Jools Holland boogie woogie. It lacks punch and seems a bit aimless. I guess that's the key point, It doesn't go anywhere! Not that I expect music to go somewhere as I love one note trance rock taking you out into the void (which I guess means it does go somewhere but not in a traditional musical way), but if you're not going to go anywhere with your music you need it to have that simplistic beauty and not just start a song, play a bit, do some rock jazz noodling then stop.

I know Iggy based his onstage look on Jim Morrison which I can't argue is really cool, but listening to a bootleg of the Doors live I just found myself cringing. Supposedly risqué poems about Hitler and killing his mum - all while stoned girls cheer and clap. Now this is going to sounds harsh, maybe at the time it was a bit naughty but it does kind of sum them up for me. A lot of hot air and not much substance.

This may well be an "I'll get me coat moment"....
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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by coffeepotman » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:25 pm

I agree with everything you say, I was really into The Doors.....when I was 13 and14 years old, haven't listened to them much since but when I was 14 I really bought into that whole Mr. Mojo Rising thing.

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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by spzretent » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:37 pm

80% of the Beach Boys.
I do like Wild Honey and Holland plus the Dennis Wilson solo lp.
The others? Not for me but not for lack of trying. Several times.

Loop.
Sold loads the first time around at my shop. Faked interest. My employees loved them. I just didn't. Recently re bought a used LP of Heaven's End. Still not for me.

Slowdive
Used to adore them. To my ears time has not been kind to them. Their shoegazey stuff hasn't aged well imho. That was all I was into by them.

We could also start a thread the opposite of this. Underrated bands who rarely get mentioned on the message board.
Swervedriver for a start. Not really sure why they were lumped in with the shoegaze thing. Timing and being on Creation probably. More like the British version of Sonic Youth. Only better and prettier. Again my opinion
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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by angelsighs » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:55 pm

not generally a fan of negative threads, but I'll chip in anyway.

The Doors- yep agree with them. Jim Morrison was a pretentious poser. rambling, pointless music.
David Bowie- I don't get any emotional connection with any of his music. all image.
Nirvana- they were pretty good, but hardly one of the all time greats.
Frank Sinatra and all of his genre- smug showbiz gits!

can't say I agree with Swervedriver, spzretent. bought their Best Of a few years back and could never get into it. didn't really rock that hard (the production sounded a bit naff which may have neutered them to be fair) and severely lacking tunes as well.

phew that feels better actually! maybe I should slag bands off more often.

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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by spzretent » Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:11 pm

Just opinions. Thats all.
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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by Laz69 » Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:26 pm

spzretent wrote: Loop.
Sold loads the first time around at my shop. Faked interest. My employees loved them. I just didn't. Recently re bought a used LP of Heaven's End. Still not for me.
Ditto... just don't do it for me.
spzretent wrote: Slowdive
Used to adore them. To my ears time has not been kind to them. Their shoegazey stuff hasn't aged well imho. That was all I was into by them.
I still go back to this band periodically. Its very much of a time and place but i like what they did. Their debut was a real love of mine back then so i still have a real soft spot for it. Souvlaki is still enjoyable too, but i really do like Pygmalion a lot! Great chillout record.. i love its minimalism and sparseness.
spzretent wrote: Swervedriver for a start. Not really sure why they were lumped in with the shoegaze thing. Timing and being on Creation probably. More like the British version of Sonic Youth. Only better and prettier. Again my opinion
Oh yeah... LOVE this band. I got into them same time as i discovered Slowdive, The Boo Radleys and The Telescopes (all from that same Select mag Creation tape). "Raise" is one of my favs.

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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by Aquarian-Time » Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:25 pm

The Doors, The Who, The Jam, The Clash
All four of them, I just can't fathom why people fell for these bands, none of them (despite how infleuntial they were or became) did anything or indeed do anything for me now.

Swervedriver, i have all their stuff, but I dont know where I stand on it, kind of unremarkable yet proficient of that makes any sense?

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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by burningwheel » Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:37 pm

The Clash. The Grateful Dead. Bob Dylan. Bob Marley.
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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by nickh » Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:57 pm

Neil Young

Not saying he’s crap but I just don’t get him. I watched 10 minutes of him at Glastonbury 2009, got bored and went to watch Bloc Party and I have never ever regretted my decision.

Ride

Just don’t see what all the fuss was about. I saw Ride supporting a whole load of bands and I used to think, oh god not this lot again. How they could be even be mentioned in the same sentence as My Bloody Valentine beggars belief.

The Verve

Never got them either although will happily admit to liking Bittersweet Symphony :D


I still love The Doors, it is a bit sixth form poetry at times but I reckon he just about pulled it off. There are times though when listening to the Doors I catch myself saying, oh do leave off Jim. All that Lizard King stuff is pushing it a bit.
Last edited by nickh on Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by The Dr » Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:18 pm

the beatles,
the rolling stones,
the doors,
pink floyd,
lots of neil young- some of his stuff i adore, other bits i just find tedious

there are probably more. some of these may surprise people but my finding people not liking dylan, sinatra etc is baffleing, which is why music is so wonderful! there is something for everyone and no right or wrong answers!
“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

'I protest!' Behemoth exclaimed hotly. 'Dostoevsky is immortal!”

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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by olan » Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:42 pm

The Grateful Dead
Van Morrison
Radiohead (more mince than sacred cow IMHO)
Led Zep
Wire
U2 (appalling shite)
Elvis Costello

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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by jack white » Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:10 pm

angelsighs wrote: The Doors- yep agree with them. Jim Morrison was a pretentious poser.

if the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite.
he must've been so fucking stoned when he decided to name them the doors.


there is no way the doors are a sacred cow. everyone laughs at them. lester bangs did a number on them way back in the old timey world.

Loop are really weird it's like this msg board is the only place i've ever seen them get any credit - & this is kinda the last place i'd have expected that to happen.


i'm another one not too hot on the clash - or the jam. the whole paul weller thing.. i don't get it. bowie yea defo but i've softened a lot & enjoy him a lot more these days. blur would maybe be another.
none really spring to mind.

sigur ros are treasured & they make me laugh so i suppose i'd vote for them. i still like some of their stuff from time to time but they are pretty preposterous at the end of the day (in a bad way - you can be preposterous in a good way!).

there's really nothing in my collection anymore that i can't find something positive about no matter how silly or stupefying it is - i'm trying to complete my ronnie james dio collection for crying out loud. am actually thinking of putting on hanoi rocks this evening.. i guess i'm saying i'm not one to judge what the cool kids think.. & i don't give a shit! they're welcome to their slow swervedrivers, they've never much bothered me as a sacred cow more like elevator muzak..
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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by The Dr » Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:21 pm

jack white wrote:
angelsighs wrote: The Doors- yep agree with them. Jim Morrison was a pretentious poser.

if the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite.
he must've been so fucking stoned when he decided to name them the doors.

it's a william blake translation and the title of a book by huxley...
“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

'I protest!' Behemoth exclaimed hotly. 'Dostoevsky is immortal!”

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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by The Dr » Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:22 pm

yes the jam, plus the smiths (mostly) and morrisey (bar one song- first of the gang)
“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

'I protest!' Behemoth exclaimed hotly. 'Dostoevsky is immortal!”

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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by jack white » Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:35 pm

The Dr wrote:
jack white wrote:
angelsighs wrote: The Doors- yep agree with them. Jim Morrison was a pretentious poser.

if the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite.
he must've been so fucking stoned when he decided to name them the doors.

it's a william blake translation and the title of a book by huxley...

i know what it is
but thanks for the condescension :wink: :p
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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by sunray » Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:35 pm

Love.

Plenty mentioned here that I'm not really into but might get a decent compilation out of all the albums: Led Zeppelin, The Beatles, Bowie, The Who etc, In fact there's probably a lot of those: The Byrds, Kraftwerk.....

Would have to agree with angelsighs on Swervedriver and Nirvana.

As for The Doors? Loved them in my teens, gave them a listen again last year and not as good, not shite just didn't have the same impact. Still enjoyable enough though.
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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by The Dr » Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:54 pm

jack white wrote:/quote]


i know what it is
but thanks for the condescension :wink: :p
condescension...is that when it is warm inside and cold outside and water forms on the window? :wink:
“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

'I protest!' Behemoth exclaimed hotly. 'Dostoevsky is immortal!”

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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by plastic37 » Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:58 pm

simonkeeping wrote:This may well be an "I'll get me coat moment"....
Well that depends how people react.
And the reaction to controversial opinions tell us a great deal.

For me its The Grateful Dead.
But I really enjoy reading about them and their milieu. I guess you don't have to like the music to recognise the role they have played and understand the high regard in which they are held. Both the band and their fans are fascinating.

And there's always hope for me yet. Maybe i will begin to appreciate the music as much as the stuff that surrounds it. That's what has happened for me with Black Sabbath and Hawkwind over the last 5 or six years.
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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by nickh » Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:08 pm

sunray wrote:Love.
Ha! I was waiting for someone to come up with Love.

They do leave a lot of people scratching their heads and wondering what all the fuss is about.

Love played the acoustic stage at Glastonbury in 2004 and I took my friends up there to see them. After 3 or 4 songs I turned to them to take their appreciation and thanks for introducing them to such great music…they had all fucked off to the bar.

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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by burningwheel » Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:11 pm

Surprised about all The Doors hate. it was because of them that I discovered the bunnymen and teardrop explodes, which opened my eyes and ears to music that wasn't classic rock. Iread they sounded like The Doors. I will always love them. Nothing much better than 'Wishful Sinful' among many other amazing songs

Yeah, I forgot about Love. Ive never been able to get into them, but I keep trying
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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by redcloud » Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:06 am

Queen - I cannot stand their overblown, anthemic opera rock. I will say though that if the Browns ever win a Championship I will no doubt be singing "We Are The Champions" loud and drunkenly. That will be my only Queen moment. But, that may never happen in my lifetime so, I will just continue to rate them as my choice of "most overrated band".

Bruce Springsteen- His working class/blue collar New Jersey good 'ol boy music made "for the people" does absolutely nothing for me. AND...I say that as a kid who grew up in a greasy, rusty blue collar city!

David Bowie- I have very fond memories of listening to "Ziggy" throughout my teens but after that...I lose interest. Even Ziggy only keeps me entertained because of the context we used to play the album.

The Kinks - Doesn't turn my stomach like Queen but I have never been overly excited, inspired nor interested in them.

The Beach Boys - I've tried but...it just doesn't speak to me at all. It always sounded very wimpy, I was growing up in a cold, grey, rusty, gritty, steel city that was the opposite of sunny southern California so it never connected. I've given "Pet Sounds" several tries but it still didn't register. I haven't fully invested my time with "Smile" either. I do feel like I should try again on these latter two as my biases have stopped me from really devoting my time to both and I believe they may deserve more from me.

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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by jack white » Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:30 am

Surf's Up & even Sunflower is where the beach boys really made it for me. Dennis' Forever & side 2 of Surf's Up are just as good as it gets. Heartbreaking & beautiful, yrs ahead in their vision, language & execution & still absolutely unfuckwithable soul music - spiritualized music.
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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by runaway » Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:39 am

A hate thread? I'm there!
U2
Radiohead
Tom Waits
Eric Clapton
Sting
U2

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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by spzretent » Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:03 am

I would have to agree on Love. I get nothing out of Forever Changes. Another record I have bought(and sold) several times.

A lot of this depends on how time alters my perception of some bands. The hardest thing to do is to make music that is timeless. To my ears a lot of bands I liked in the 80's/90's dont sound nearly as good as they did back then. Some bands that have stood the test of time surprise me. Simple Minds up to and including New Gold Dream. Some dont surpise me: Teardrops/Bunnymen. The ones I dont listen to at all anymore: Ride, Slowdive, My Bloody Valentine.
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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by angelsighs » Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:49 am

Aquarian-Time wrote:The Doors, The Who, The Jam, The Clash
agree, agree, agree, don't agree!!
I do believe that The Clash never really made an album that was brilliant all the way through, but their best stuff is among the best ever rock music.

can't believe I forgot Queen. I find them very pompous and over the top.

and I never liked U2 but that's kind of shooting fish in a barrel :)

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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by runcible » Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:21 am

The 2 albums I think I ought to love but don't get are Forever Changes and Pet Sounds.

The band I ought to love but generally don't get are The Kinks.

I find The Doors and The Who largely overrated. I totally get why people don't understand The Grateful Dead - I felt like that for many years, then suddenly it all made sense.

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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by mc » Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:09 am

Quite a few of mine have already been mentioned: Led Zep, The Who, The Jam, The Clash, The Kinks, Love... However, my main sacred cow I'm more than happy to slaughter is:

The Smiths

I just don't get the adulation. I find them actively painful to listen to. Whiny vocals, dull generically jangly instrumentation, self-pitying lyrics. And Morrissey... :roll:

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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by moop » Tue Apr 15, 2014 11:13 am

mc wrote:The Smiths
seconded! :D

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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by niamhm » Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:30 pm

Brian Jonestown Massacre - can never understand the devotion this band inspire in their followers/ Psych. circles, from the punning titles, to the asshole front man who`s more famous for being a twat in a movie than his music , I must admit its f#ckin` beyond me what people see in them,

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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by runcible » Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:01 pm

niamhm wrote:Brian Jonestown Massacre - can never understand the devotion this band inspire in their followers/ Psych. circles, from the punning titles, to the asshole front man who`s more famous for being a twat in a movie than his music , I must admit its f#ckin` beyond me what people see in them,
Despite all that being true the music is curiously easy on the ear - and lots of it is really good.

I'm in with the Smiths lot here too. I do like a couple of songs but the adulation is most mysterious. And, as someone said, Morrissey...

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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by simonkeeping » Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:32 pm

Some really interesting responses here! Bizarrely I didn't think it was a hate thread (but I guess it actually is)? My reasons behind posting the thread were based more on social conventions that modern media pushes us into. The endless top 100 albums you MUST own etc etc etc etc. Its just cheap easy editorial filler.

I work in publishing and recently was on a project with a music writer. To cut a long story short she'd written an album review and had sent it off to the editor for approval but was worried the editor wouldn't like it as it was quite negative. Anyway, the editor sent a one line reply to the tune of 'I completely agree - good review'. And it got me thinking, so if she had of liked the album would that have been bad review as she didn't share her point of view?

I think the music press sometimes forget that they are only offering an opinion - They are not the authority of what is good and what is bad. Its really interesting to hear from people on the board who have wildly diverse and eclectic tastes (but ultimately know there onions when it comes to music) what they can't get into. What's really nice too is the fact that people try to get into this stuff but it just doesn't light that all important spark in there head.
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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by runaway » Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:53 pm

I don't wanna live in a world where people don't like the Kinks and Beach Boys.

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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by runcible » Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:26 pm

runaway wrote:I don't wanna live in a world where people don't like the Kinks and Beach Boys.
Well if someone's going to get their coat it's not going to be me...

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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by The Dr » Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:04 pm

redcloud wrote:Queen -

Bruce Springsteen-

David Bowie


The Beach Boys
yupp, and most of punk for me. the clash had moments but the ramones, sex pistols etc do nothing for me also jack white projects. the white stripes had great songs- gonna be friends, apple blossom, hotel yarba but generally feels incomplete to me
“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

'I protest!' Behemoth exclaimed hotly. 'Dostoevsky is immortal!”

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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by runaway » Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:02 pm

runcible wrote:
runaway wrote:I don't wanna live in a world where people don't like the Kinks and Beach Boys.
Well if someone's going to get their coat it's not going to be me...
How can someone live in England and not like the Kinks? It should be a requirement for citizenship or something.

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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by olan » Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:43 pm

runaway wrote:
runcible wrote:
runaway wrote:I don't wanna live in a world where people don't like the Kinks and Beach Boys.
Well if someone's going to get their coat it's not going to be me...
How can someone live in England and not like the Kinks? It should be a requirement for citizenship or something.
:D When I first lived in Australia I jokingly suggested that the lyrics to Cattle and Cane by The Go-Betweens should be on the high school syllabus for all Australians. The response was "Who are The Go-Betweens?" :roll:

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Re: Sacred Cows both Milked and Slaughtered

Post by semisynthetic » Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:23 am

For me, it is currently one of the most commercialized, and therefore, (financially "successful") musical genre; it is "Rap" that I find one of the most overrated popular musical forms.

The very early, generally cassette only, bought only from innercity areas and certain small distributors was an interesting musical form by the same name, only without the predictability and a fake thug "lifestyle" that sells now.

In the 1970's, and very early 1980's, I obtained hundreds of these "real life" recordings from urban areas by very talented story tellers that sounds a bit like the "Blues on speed". Creative and talented, there was a much more believable and enjoyable experience to the sound in their rhymes, music and stories than in the Commercialized (c)Rap I hear today.


I HAVE heard pieces I enjoyed; but in general, it is an overrated form that was stolen and mercilessly commercialized, and it is this I dislike. A genuine artform that has been de-evolved into something I do not normally enjoy. A "Sacred Cow" that has been Milked and Slaughtered in order to provide for its very creation.

And Pat Boone.
:D
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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by burningwheel » Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:55 am

Shocked about the kinks too. Probably my fav 60s band
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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by redcloud » Wed Apr 16, 2014 3:13 am

runaway wrote:I don't wanna live in a world where people don't like the Kinks and Beach Boys.
That's what makes open forums, such as this, exist...so that we can talk, discuss, dissect and share opinions. Not everyone will agree. There's no point in losing sleep over it.

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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by mojo filters » Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:02 am

simonkeeping wrote:Some really interesting responses here! Bizarrely I didn't think it was a hate thread (but I guess it actually is)? My reasons behind posting the thread were based more on social conventions that modern media pushes us into. The endless top 100 albums you MUST own etc etc etc etc.

{snip}

I think the music press sometimes forget that they are only offering an opinion - They are not the authority of what is good and what is bad. Its really interesting to hear from people on the board who have wildly diverse and eclectic tastes (but ultimately know there onions when it comes to music) what they can't get into. What's really nice too is the fact that people try to get into this stuff but it just doesn't light that all important spark in there head.
I don't know how many folks here read magazines like Guitarist, Guitar & Bass etc - but if you find publications like NME and Mojo too fawning over the usual suspects, at least they have a degree of objectivity and offer some critical analysis of the music written about.

Whilst I read the guitar magazines for the features and gear reviews, I find the interviews and articles they also include, about a relatively narrow group of bluesy and rock guitarists from little-known journeymen session musicians to massive names in their genre like Eddie van Halen and Slash - each and every mention of such subjects is sickeningly gushing. They inevitably attribute absurdly exaggerated qualities, from each artist's importance in their contribution to guitar music over the years, to overtly praising both their technical and creative ability.

There are occasional exceptions - genuine legends like James Burton, BB King and Eric Clapton deserve some of the achievements they are hero-worshipped and credited for. But it seems that the same names like Brad Paisley and Joe Bonamassa and several others whose music seems to just be a lesser rehash of the brilliant but backwards-looking bluesy rock the likes of Stevie Ray Vaughn and Rory Gallagher were doing a better job of over 30 years ago.

And whilst I agree that in this genre such names deserve credit for keeping some great music alive and kicking, it irritates me that you can be sure each title will have an issue with all the names I've already mentioned on the cover on a virtually annual basis, this pattern is continued and compounded by the surety that a genuine innovator tor like Hendrix will appear even more often with just the same gushing copy re-written (and very occasionally some info about an interesting development like the "People, He'll & Angels" album in the case of the latter) but usually simply on the pretext of some new fx pedal - most recently the Dunlop mini Fuzz Face new ways of packaging existing products (a simple Silicone and also a Germainium pair of fuzz boxes) like the extra "Hendrix" model that's slightly different to previous products.

I enjoy the articles about a specific artist or band's live and recording rigs, but again the limited scope used when finding candidates is extremely frustrating. The musical taste on show is so insanely conservative and repetitive - bands like Radiohead are about as leftfield as you find, and whilst it so happens that band uses some really interesting gear, too often these publications err on the side of caution and seem happy with the narrow scope of the music they explore and embrace.

I guess at the end of the day I'm encouraging what I complain about through buying the magazines. But I know there are a lot of musicians on here, and especially guitarists - I wonder how others feel about this, or do you simply not bother buying these magazines?

I'm also keen to find out if our American cousins find the same with their local publications? I notice that the letters pages often include correspondence from other English speaking countries - so these must manage to find their way overseas. I know that a lot of musicians around the world appreciate Sound On Sound, which is understandable as with the exception of some German publications, it is the most thorough and least biased of any magazine concerned with making music. I have probably learned more useful info about guitars - from tips on recording them to practical info on fx (both hardware and software) - from that magazine than I have from supposedly dedicated guitar rags.

Anyways I wrote a lot more than I intended, but my point was simply that if you think the likes of NME, Uncut etc are poor: there is worse out there, unfortunately...
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Re: Sacred Cows both Milked and Slaughtered

Post by The Dr » Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:13 am

semisynthetic wrote:For me, it is currently one of the most commercialized, and therefore, (financially "successful") musical genre; it is "Rap" that I find one of the most overrated popular musical forms.

The very early, generally cassette only, bought only from innercity areas and certain small distributors was an interesting musical form by the same name, only without the predictability and a fake thug "lifestyle" that sells now.

In the 1970's, and very early 1980's, I obtained hundreds of these "real life" recordings from urban areas by very talented story tellers that sounds a bit like the "Blues on speed". Creative and talented, there was a much more believable and enjoyable experience to the sound in their rhymes, music and stories than in the Commercialized (c)Rap I hear today.


I HAVE heard pieces I enjoyed; but in general, it is an overrated form that was stolen and mercilessly commercialized, and it is this I dislike. A genuine artform that has been de-evolved into something I do not normally enjoy. A "Sacred Cow" that has been Milked and Slaughtered in order to provide for its very creation.

And Pat Boone.
:D
o yes but that can be said about folk, gospel, blues, jazz (jamie cullum anyone?), country, rock, classical etc. every genre has been bastardised in the same way. the britpop thread is a good example of this
“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

'I protest!' Behemoth exclaimed hotly. 'Dostoevsky is immortal!”

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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by The Dr » Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:13 am

redcloud wrote:
runaway wrote: There's no point in losing sleep over it.

now you tell me! :shock: :wink: :lol: :oops: :D
“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

'I protest!' Behemoth exclaimed hotly. 'Dostoevsky is immortal!”

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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by The Dr » Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:16 am

mojo filters wrote: Mojo too fawning over the usual suspects, Uncut etc are poor: there is worse out there, unfortunately...

if uncut and mojo have dylan on i usually buy them to be honest, other than that, with the odd exceptions i tend to ignore them. i had a 2 year subscription to mojo which i don't miss at all. except for the revoews of things i can't afford anyway! :lol:
“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

'I protest!' Behemoth exclaimed hotly. 'Dostoevsky is immortal!”

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Re: Sacred Cows and Writing about Them

Post by semisynthetic » Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:31 am

Over the years I have found many "do-it-yourself" reviews and discussions of bands that are NEVER going to be in NME or Mojo or anything else. These are generally written by the true music loving owner of a small shop, and more often as an anonymous weekly writing, sheet or booklet, and generally IN A SMALL SHOP. Usually just a xeroxed copy, although I do have several very nicely, and somewhat costly examples from those people who wished to share and turn on the unknowing to something that they had found to be Wonderful.

It is these authors that I believe have been more "reliable"; they had no deadline or anything to gain except the love of sharing music; these other Glossy magazines have too much invested to be taken seriously in my humble opinion, though I do believe they have a place for anyone who can be bothered with them. I do find points of interest or details that likely do require an on the spot reporter to obtain.
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Re: Sacred Cows both Milked and Slaughtered

Post by semisynthetic » Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:44 am

The Dr wrote: o yes but that can be said about folk, gospel, blues, jazz (jamie cullum anyone?), country, rock, classical etc. every genre has been bastardised in the same way. the britpop thread is a good example of this......
I certainly agree. Anyone who is going to submit to a major label is likely giving up SOMETHING of their original sound and form; and this can be disastrous, or, by luck and talent and circumstance, can sometimes be a real boon!
"Everything is a Poison; it is the amount or degree that separates one Poison from another"
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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by runcible » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:19 am

burningwheel wrote:Shocked about the kinks too. Probably my fav 60s band


Now that's how The Kinks should sound. :wink:

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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by jack white » Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:54 pm

actually that ^ is a really prescient point. the kinks never got to do america to dilute the sheer englishness of their songs, until it was too late.

when they rocked.. they fucking did:


To the Bone is worth checking out. good album which goes someway to readdressing what went wrong w/the kinks.


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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by burningwheel » Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:24 am

Blur
Post Syd Pink Floyd
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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by angelsighs » Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:25 am

burningwheel wrote:Blur
Post Syd Pink Floyd
agree with both! Blur have done the odd good song (I quite like their melancholy ballady ones) but I hate the Britpop stuff and if I never hear Song 2 again it will be too soon. I also hear Coxon mentioned as a great guitarist which just utterly baffles me.
early Floyd is pretty good but the latter stuff leaves me cold.

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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by olan » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:51 pm

burningwheel wrote:Blur
Post Syd Pink Floyd
Agreed on Blur. I am not a huge fan of the Syd era Floyd. I like some of it but Bike and Arnold Layne are too 'pastoral' or 'twee' for my tastes. I like most of their output from Umma Gumma to Animals though. I find The Wall and anything afterwards almost unlistenable though....

{I managed to send this to Burningwheel as a PM- sorry about that! Old age is catching up with me :lol: :lol: }

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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by BzaInSpace » Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:06 pm

runcible wrote:
burningwheel wrote:Shocked about the kinks too. Probably my fav 60s band


Now that's how The Kinks should sound. :wink:
Image
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Sacred Cows

Post by BzaInSpace » Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:26 pm

Sacred Cows?

Bring 'em.

I don't think this is a negative thread per se - more like one of interest where we are all honest enough to admit that "I just don't get the acclaim here".

I would have been right on Love too, had it not been for a revelatory afternoon in the company of Forever Changes nearly a year ago, where after many years it finally opened my head to reveal the masterpiece lurking within. Since the late 90s I'd really enjoyed the garage-style hits they did - particularly '7 & & Is' and such, but could not get into this one at all. Read that thread again - Heisenberg's reply explains it better than I ever could...

My own 'sacred cows' are neither sacred nor bovine - just music that I either can't be bothered with or actively dislike:

U2
Grateful Dead
(Most) Pink Floyd
BJM
Echo & The Bunnymen

Also - any number of fashion-orientated 'psyche bands' that would have been playing post-Strokes minimalist-indie-filler pish a decade ago, or had they been around 20 years ago would have played Britpop inspired cack.

On that note, need I add Oasis and indeed Blur to this list? See my incoming Britpop reply... but awful, awful music.

I will also hold my hand up for Trout Mask Replica: I did buy the 2012 remaster but to be fair I've yet to properly listen to it. Clearly not as immediate as the stuff I really like by Beefheart, but I do wonder if hearing it back in 1968 on Sunshine Acid or some fine grass made a difference in it's critical standing.

Uh... Calvin Harris?
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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by nickh » Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:48 pm

I don’t hate any of the bands I listed, I just don’t get them when almost everyone else holds them in the highest esteem.
I don’t know if I would post if there was a “Which bands do you think are absolute shite” thread* but aren’t we above all that here?

I love the fact people don’t get Love, and even better, didn’t get them but do now.
7&7 Is is a fantastic song.

Captain Beefheart is an excellent sacred cow. I tried but just ended up on each failed attempt thinking: is it just me or is this just a load of old crap? (apart from Bug Eyed Beans from Venus and Click Clack)



















* Queen

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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by The Dr » Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:50 pm

nickh wrote:I don’t hate any of the bands I listed, I just don’t get them when almost everyone else holds them in the highest esteem.
)
i don't see this as a hate list, i mean why bother hate music you don't like? i'll also add captian beefheart, frank zappa, madonna- but surely queen, madonna etc go without saying?

then again i do like britney spears, u2 and some modern pop songs so...
“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

'I protest!' Behemoth exclaimed hotly. 'Dostoevsky is immortal!”

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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by jack white » Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:03 pm

jeez.. this thread has been a bit of an eye opener.. or an eyebrow raiser..

beefheart getting it in the neck now? wat in the holy good fuck?! :shock: what do you people actually listen to?? :lol:

if EVER there was a master craftsman of songwriting/rock n roll it's don van vliet. i actually feel honoured & awe-stuck such a polymath & genius would grace this thing of ours w/his talent for so many years. i'm truly surprised people are so willing to close themselves off to the wonder of this guy.
not just in his deconstructions, or his voice, which alone ought to garner him ever lasting adoration from everyone who has ever listened to to a song. but his blues.. he's prob the greatest, truest white bluesman we'll ever know. his breathtaking, feral soul is a conduit for the cosmos & a very reason for even fucking being. he's like the fucking charles mingus of rock n roll. the leonardo di vinci of rock n roll!
fuck me. smgdh. electricity fuckers!
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Sacred Cows

Post by BzaInSpace » Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:58 pm

jack white wrote: what do you people actually listen to?? :lol:
Van Halen, Oasis and U2 evidently... and sadly.
jack white wrote:...if EVER there was a master craftsman of songwriting/rock n roll it's don van vliet. i actually feel honoured & awe-stuck such a polymath & genius would grace this thing of ours w/his talent for so many years. i'm truly surprised people are so willing to close themselves off to the wonder of this guy.
not just in his deconstructions, or his voice, which alone ought to garner him ever lasting adoration from everyone who has ever listened to to a song. but his blues.. he's prob the greatest, truest white bluesman we'll ever know. his breathtaking, feral soul is a conduit for the cosmos & a very reason for even fucking being. he's like the fucking charles mingus of rock n roll. the leonardo di vinci of rock n roll!
electricity fuckers!
Well I'd agree with most of the frothing enthusiasm here about Van Vliet - although I'd argue he was a more important figure in rock 'n' roll than Mingus was for jazz.

However, for me at least, Trout Mask Replica remains inpenetrable. Again, I'll admit to not spending vast amounts of time with it - I far prefer even the Captain's so-called 'sell-out'/commercial records - Bluejeans & Moonbeams is a great record! As is The Spotlight Kid.

I read somewhere recently it's because of the fact I've tried to digest it as single CD length disc, as opposed to four sides of vinyl as it was 'back in the day'... with the requisite drugs as well, presumably.

Hate? In the end there's too little time to be hating on music.

Unless it's U2 of course...
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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by semisynthetic » Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:33 am

I love Captain Beefheart! With his (unknowing help), along with Frank Zappa's "Weasels Ripped My Flesh", I was CERTAIN to have a private room and bath my first year of college. :D Plus, the correct time, setting and, uh, snacks, makes it all the more enjoyable. :D
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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by niamhm » Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:48 pm

Another one that just came to me earlier,The Cure never got these men, beggar`s believe they lasted this long, to me anyway, from the doomier than thou early stuff to the toy box orchestra pop songs , I tried , I owned Faith, Primary was all right, the rest? no, never happened , sat with friends being force fed the 80`s albums, disassociation, no connection what so ever , then come the 90`s the panstick caked f#cker , Smith, is all stadiums an international success and devoted obsessives , it leaves me bewildered this bands success if I think about it , I read somewhere last week they were doing shows that lasted almost 4!! fucking!!! hrs, who could put up with that??? ... The F#ckin` Cure,

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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by burningwheel » Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:12 am

Lol! I love the cure
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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by semisynthetic » Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:20 am

I have no "Sacred Cows". No music I can't do without.

Although I DO enjoy most types of music, some more than others; I KNOW a few people who "Idolize" a person or band, but I never have. I enjoy creativity; I have albums that I don't particularly like that much, BUT, they are very well done, and I appreciate them for that.

I did mention one genre' of music that I thought had been so completely and overwhelming commercialized and coerced, that the ORIGINAL musical form of the same name had been eliminated; perhaps my inclusion of this genre' was misunderstood by some, I don't know.

It is very interesting and inciteful to see a sort of "animous of type" without anymore than "I don't like it"; but, I suppose that is enough for the majority of people. Personally, I am interested in more of the whys and specifics.

After all these years of trying to be more "Library Like" and inclusive, while still trying to obtain music that I DO like best, and to show what "happened" in 1890 or 1990 or last week, it is harder to slaughter a mythical "sacred cow", but easier to point out pieces that I like, or other types that I believe were ruined for one reason or another.
"Everything is a Poison; it is the amount or degree that separates one Poison from another"
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Re: Sacred Cows

Post by redcloud » Sat May 31, 2014 7:00 pm

niamhm wrote:Brian Jonestown Massacre - can never understand the devotion this band inspire in their followers/ Psych. circles, from the punning titles, to the asshole front man who`s more famous for being a twat in a movie than his music , I must admit its f#ckin` beyond me what people see in them,
Taken me ages to reply to this but meant to when I first saw it posted.

So, forget about the people behind this band. I know, I know...it is hard not to be swayed by the cult of personality - especially when they are strong personalities or even foul and, at times, horrible. HOWEVER, musically and lyrically there is no denying the beauty in his songs. The gorgeously delicate and sumptuous guitar solo in "Prozac vs. Heroin" is the perfect example of the beauty this band has the ability to create. I melt every time I hear that solo and am completely sucked into everything that is being offered and want more. Juxtapose that with the thick and dirty "Jesus" or the painful "Open Heart Surgery", "Tschusse", "Monster" and the most recent "Days Weeks Moths" and I think it is very evident the talents and artistic merit behind the band. Anton has an innate ability to be able to speak directly from his heart about the human spirit and its condition. Like his songs, he too is bruised, battered and rough around the edges. But, at his best he's able to translate that in a beautiful, touching, and painfully evocative way.

I totally get them and understand why others do too. BUT, it has also taken me years to ignore the people in the band and all the extra baggage nonsense and just listen to the music.

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Re: Sacred Cows and Barbeque Sauce

Post by semisynthetic » Sat May 31, 2014 8:15 pm

I have a similar sentiment with regard to this band, and frankly, a great number that share some things like it; the "Alternative Tentacles" crowd, for example. Their antics and "shock" value can hide some very interesting music of depth. Certainly not one of my "all time favorite" bands, they do provide their own form of entertainment, from the Titles, i.e. "Thank God for Mental Illness", the Artwork and packaging, to the actual music itself; in many ways, BJM is, for me, another and new "breed" of Punk like noise and Bad taste that has a certain Humor in it. The first release I saw, I bought for the title and "artwork", thinking back on how many talented bands from 30 years ago were "disgusting" as was their intent, but also very talented in their own special way, and I enjoy it.
"Everything is a Poison; it is the amount or degree that separates one Poison from another"
Paracelsus

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