sexual abuse in music

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The Dr
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sexual abuse in music

Post by The Dr » Tue Jan 19, 2016 11:38 pm

read this article. it is sickening. all credit to those who finally spoke up about it


http://www.vulture.com/2016/01/musician ... sment.html
“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

'I protest!' Behemoth exclaimed hotly. 'Dostoevsky is immortal!”

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Re: sexual abuse in music

Post by heisenberg » Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:11 pm

Absolutely shocking. What a scumbag. I wonder if he will face criminal charges.

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Re: sexual abuse in music

Post by runaway » Wed Jan 20, 2016 9:07 pm

Not making excuses but men have been doing shit like that for centuries. Deplorable behavior but hardly surprising, unfortunately.

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Re: sexual abuse in music

Post by spzretent » Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:03 pm

Good for those first women who spoke up. Then the domino effect.
This guy sounds like a predatory scumbag. Asshole.
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Re: sexual abuse in music

Post by runaway » Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:11 pm

Have you heard about Don McLean?!

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Re: sexual abuse in music

Post by angelsighs » Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:53 am

absolutely sickening. it's scary how women find it difficult to speak up about this sort of stuff. I guess it's a combination of feeling shame and also the thought that it might harm their career (which is what he's betting on I guess)

the statement from the company is a bit weird as it still seems to give him a lot of credit and doesn't actually single him out??

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Re: sexual abuse in music

Post by is » Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:45 pm

Horrible subject.

I don't read the board as thoroughly as I used to - has anyone mentioned the stuff which came up last year about Kim Fowley and The Runaways?

I don't know if music has a particular problem compared to other walks of life - or even if the question matters. I've said it before, that show business/pop music is as much about selling sex as about selling music. Is it any wonder that the boundary between right and wrong (I think there is one) gets confused?

I also think there is a danger that it's probably easy to be convinced that the problem is something from The History of Rock - like the Kim Fowley thing, and more the ambiguous things that happened to Lori Maddox - and be fooled into thinking that it doesn't happen anymore. Another reason to be grateful for these people coming forward.

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Re: sexual abuse in music

Post by The Dr » Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:23 pm

Though many women leave tech to start families, a high percentage leave due to aggressions they experience. This can range from lack of career advancement opportunities to sexual harassment in the workplace, which 60 percent of women who have spent more than 10 years in tech have encountered, according to a recent study. This is why 56 percent of women in tech leave the industry — an attrition rate double that of their male counterparts, according to research by the Harvard Business School.
“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

'I protest!' Behemoth exclaimed hotly. 'Dostoevsky is immortal!”

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Re: sexual abuse in music

Post by is » Fri Jan 29, 2016 5:27 pm

At least half the people in Architecture schools in Britain are women. This has been the case for probably 10, maybe 20 years.

I'll leave you to find out what percentage of the architectural profession (!) are women. I'm sure you won't be surprised to find it's less than 50%.

Thing is - no-one knows why.

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Re: sexual abuse in music

Post by The Dr » Fri Jan 29, 2016 5:30 pm

is wrote:At least half the people in Architecture schools in Britain are women. This has been the case for probably 10, maybe 20 years.

I'll leave you to find out what percentage of the architectural profession (!) are women. I'm sure you won't be surprised to find it's less than 50%.

Thing is - no-one knows why.
Why are so many women leaving architecture? - The Guardian
http://www.theguardian.com › Women in Leadership › Leadership

7 Aug 2013 - 44% of architecture students are female, yet just 12% are partners in firms.



http://www.archdaily.com/597557/video-v ... d-industry
“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

'I protest!' Behemoth exclaimed hotly. 'Dostoevsky is immortal!”

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Re: sexual abuse in music

Post by The Dr » Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:23 pm

Best Coast's Bethany Cosentino has written a letter about misogny and sexism in the music industry for Girls' creator Lena Dunham's email newsletter Lenny.

The essay comes in the aftermath of accusations of sexual assault against former music publicist Heathcliff Berru, the CEO of the now-defunct US company Life Or Death PR who represented acts such as DIIV, Killer Mike and Tyler, The Creator.

In the letter, Stereogum reports that Cosentino described sexist reviews written about her gigs and comments directed towards her during shows. "I recently read a review that mostly lauded a Best Coast show — it specified how great the band sounded and how "sexy" I looked — but it bemoaned my lack of smiling. This article has, and continues to, deeply trouble me," she wrote.


Continuing to explain why the comments bothered her, she said: "This reviewer's gendered critique of my presence onstage revealed how he thought a woman who he saw as "sexy" should behave. It also showed how ideas about the sexualization of women are reinforced. Many people did not see the underlying sexism of the review. In fact, in the social media referencing the article, countless people attacked me with comments like "Get over it! He complimented you! Quit being a whiny bitch!""

Cosentino also stated that she had already written a first draft of the essay before the allegations against Berru, which were shared online after Dirty Projectors' Amber Coffman tweeted about her experiences, came to light. While she acknowledged the difference between a sexist review and harassment or assault, she called it "part of the same continuum".

"Because when someone critiques Best Coast's live performance because "Bethany looks like a miserable bitch onstage," it is a gendered attack," she wrote. "There are currently four men in my band, and no one is really talking about how they don't smile onstage or how hot their outfits are."


Read more at http://www.nme.com/news/best-coast/9117 ... T5SFH5t.99
“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

'I protest!' Behemoth exclaimed hotly. 'Dostoevsky is immortal!”

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Re: sexual abuse in music

Post by spaceman85 » Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:51 pm

its a shame shit bags live among us...

props to those that speak up...

and shit on those that make excuses and state they dont wanna make excuses...

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Re: sexual abuse in music

Post by is » Mon Feb 08, 2016 10:50 am

Interesting (by which I mean shocking) that this sort of thing (gendered attack/whatever) still happen.

Obviously this kind of thing in writing is not as bad as an actual attack in some ways - in other ways, worse: insidiously belittling, and much further reaching: the author can affect anyone who's reading...

The fact that the phrase 'gendered attack' has been coined at all is a sign that something is wrong.

I believe we've actually gone backwards. I can vividly remember someone in an NME from the very early 90s, complaining that he (I can't remember who - but I'm sure it was a man, from a quite popular NME band of the time) had never seen a criticism of Yoko Ono (in relation to the Beatles) that couldn't be boiled down to sexism/misogyny. I think he was referring to the 'split up the Beatles' guff, etc. Today he could have called that a Gendered Attack.

It made me think at the time (it actually made me quite careful only to criticise Yoko Ono on grounds of her actual output - easier now you can read her glib platitudes on twitter, and I know more about Fluxus, and Conceptual Art is so mainstream now it's possible for me to despise much of it on entirely non-gendered lines).

Something happened in the meantime that made people forget these things, but I'm glad it's being talked about now like it was for a while in the past. The Lad Bantz discourse needs challenging, not least because it demeans men.

Meanwhile, to quote Nigel Tufnel: "What's wrong with being sexy?"

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Re: sexual abuse in music

Post by The Dr » Sat Feb 20, 2016 6:55 pm

Lady Gaga and Lorde are among the female musicians who have shown their support for Kesha following the news that she will not be allowed to break from a professional contract with the producer she has accused of raping her.

As reported, Kesha has been denied an exit from her recording contract with producer Dr Luke (Lukasz Gottwald) by the New York Supreme Court, with Justice Shirley Kornreich telling the singer that Dr Luke's offer to allow her to record without his involvement "decimates her argument."

In October 2014, the pop star filed a lawsuit against her long-time producer Dr Luke for "mental manipulation, emotional abuse and sexual assault", and was looking to be freed from her contract with him.

Kesha had previously said that her career is "effectively over" following delays in the case, with the preliminary injunction papers stating that the singer's brand value had fallen "past the point of no return."

Since the ruling was made, #FreeKesha has been trending on Twitter with some of the biggest female musicians in the world joining in.

Lady Gaga tweeted "There are people all over the world who love you @KeshaRose. And I can say truly I am in awe of your bravery." while Lorde added: "standing with @KeshaRose through this traumatic, deeply unfair time. send good vibes her way everyone."

Meanwhile, Halsey dedicated her song 'Hold Me Down' to Kesha at her gig in Glasgow last night.





Kesha claimed in her suit that Dr Luke – who she signed with at the age of 18 – made her snort something before getting on a plane "and during the trip he forced himself on her while she was drugged". She also alleged that she was given something Dr Luke called "sober pills" before waking up the next day "naked in Dr Luke's bed, sore, sick… and with no memory of how she got there".

When an injunction case relating to Kesha's recording contract with the producer was heard in the New York Supreme Court today, however, The Hollywood Reporter quotes Justice Kornreich as saying "You're asking the court to decimate a contract that was heavily negotiated and typical for the industry," as well as citing Dr Luke's $60 million investment in Kesha's career. She added "my instinct is to do the commercially reasonable thing."

"I don't understand why I have to take the extraordinary measure of granting an injunction," the Justice continued. Kesha's lawyer complained she was being "set up to fail," with the judge responding "you're asking me to assume an entity like Sony, who are in a competitive position, will not want to make money on their investment."

Dr Luke owns Kemosabe Records, which is part of the Sony group, and Kesha has made it clear she is prepared to record with Sony, but not under Dr Luke's imprint, or in a contract with the producer. Dr Luke denies Kesha's abuse claims.


Read more at http://www.nme.com/news/kesha/91694#bmuVVIwYk5HFqeqI.99
Kesha has been denied an exit from her recording contract with producer Dr Luke (Lukasz Gottwald) by the New York Supreme Court, with Justice Shirley Kornreich telling the singer that Dr Luke's offer to allow her to record without his involvement "decimates her argument."

In October 2014, the pop star filed a lawsuit against her long-time producer Dr Luke for "mental manipulation, emotional abuse and sexual assault", and was looking to be freed from her contract with him.

Kesha claimed in her suit that Dr Luke – who she signed with at the age of 18 – made her snort something before getting on a plane "and during the trip he forced himself on her while she was drugged". She also alleged that she was given something Dr Luke called "sober pills" before waking up the next day "naked in Dr Luke's bed, sore, sick… and with no memory of how she got there".

When an injunction case relating to Kesha's recording contract with the producer was heard in the New York Supreme Court today, however, The Hollywood Reporter quotes Justice Kornreich as saying "You're asking the court to decimate a contract that was heavily negotiated and typical for the industry," as well as citing Dr Luke's $60 million investment in Kesha's career. She added "my instinct is to do the commercially reasonable thing."

"I don't understand why I have to take the extraordinary measure of granting an injunction," the Justice continued. Kesha's lawyer complained she was being "set up to fail," with the judge responding "you're asking me to assume an entity like Sony, who are in a competitive position, will not want to make money on their investment."



Kesha had previously said that her career is "effectively over" following delays in the case, with the preliminary injunction papers stating that the singer's brand value had fallen "past the point of no return."

The injunction paperwork, written in September 2015, explained through Former Universal Music Chief Executive Jim Urie "she has not been recording, touring, or able to market merchandise for nearly a year – an eternity in the industry. If Kesha cannot immediately resume recording... her career is effectively over."

Dr Luke owns Kemosabe Records, which is part of the Sony group, and Kesha has made it clear she is prepared to record with Sony, but not under Dr Luke's imprint, or in a contract with the producer. Dr Luke denies Kesha's abuse claims.

Read more at http://www.nme.com/news/kesha/91680#CzMVb7rrTpBelj6g.99
“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

'I protest!' Behemoth exclaimed hotly. 'Dostoevsky is immortal!”

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Re: sexual abuse in music

Post by mkb » Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:15 pm

Yeah, the kesha situation is disturbingly fucked up.

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Re: sexual abuse in music

Post by mc » Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:51 am

http://pitchfork.com/news/63780-swans-m ... erous-lie/

I post this as an (admittedly late) Swans fan, and feel so torn and desperately sad about the whole situation. Is a man whose music I admire capable of such despicable behaviour? Is one of his previous colleagues a jealous, inveterate liar? I really don't know. How can anyone know?

But you know what? If I were forced to pick a side at gunpoint, I'd pick and believe Larkin Grimm. Why, you ask? Because of history. Because of the way rape victims are treated in the (UK and US) legal system. Because I can't believe anybody would deliberately subject themselves to the personal, sexual and dehumanising humiliation of a rape trial on the basis of a false allegation. Because men that fuck around are "players" or "bros" or "studs" and women displaying even a hint of sexual freedom are "sluts" or "whores". It all makes me horribly sad: sad about the actions of my fellow men, sad about society's attitude to rape and sexual assault, sad about everything. Is this particular case fabrication or not? Either way, my previous points hold. Therein lies the problem.

I'm not assuming M. Gira is guilty. But I'm worried, nevertheless.

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Re: sexual abuse in music

Post by mojo filters » Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:24 pm

I thought the point made about Yoko Ono is very valid. I've been an avid Beatles and Lennon fan since I was a little kid. I always thought it was a shame how Yoko was characterized, as in almost every book I read (thankfully in those pre-internet days there was plenty of reading materials I could access via the library) that referenced the subject - it was clear that whatever else was going on, she made John very happy and was a fascinating character in her own right.

It saddens me that I had no compunction criticising her as a youngster - in the same childish way others did, when really my only issue with her at the time was I didn't like her songs on Double Fantasy and a few other records.

I don't think I'd have been so quick to happily dismiss her artistic merits as a youngster, had she been a male associate of John Lennon. I think in those circumstances I'd have more clearly been able to separate the work I didn't happen to like, from the person I knew had such a significantly positive effect on one of my musical heroes.

It is quite awful looking back, just how much ignorant criticism aimed at Yoko Ono was overtly gendered and grossly unfair. Bearing that in mind, whilst I still find most of her songs on Double Fantasy irritating, I have considerable respect for the dignified way she behaved in the face of such overtly sexist prejudice.
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Re: sexual abuse in music

Post by olan » Sun Feb 28, 2016 10:45 am

mc wrote:http://pitchfork.com/news/63780-swans-m ... erous-lie/

I post this as an (admittedly late) Swans fan, and feel so torn and desperately sad about the whole situation. Is a man whose music I admire capable of such despicable behaviour? Is one of his previous colleagues a jealous, inveterate liar? I really don't know. How can anyone know?

But you know what? If I were forced to pick a side at gunpoint, I'd pick and believe Larkin Grimm. Why, you ask? Because of history. Because of the way rape victims are treated in the (UK and US) legal system. Because I can't believe anybody would deliberately subject themselves to the personal, sexual and dehumanising humiliation of a rape trial on the basis of a false allegation. Because men that fuck around are "players" or "bros" or "studs" and women displaying even a hint of sexual freedom are "sluts" or "whores". It all makes me horribly sad: sad about the actions of my fellow men, sad about society's attitude to rape and sexual assault, sad about everything. Is this particular case fabrication or not? Either way, my previous points hold. Therein lies the problem.

I'm not assuming M. Gira is guilty. But I'm worried, nevertheless.
This appears to be quite nasty. According to the Guardian Gira has owned up to an 'intimate encounter' but denies rape. :cry:

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Re: sexual abuse in music

Post by The Dr » Sun Feb 28, 2016 5:51 pm

mojo filters wrote:I thought the point made about Yoko Ono is very valid. I've been an avid Beatles and Lennon fan since I was a little kid. I always thought it was a shame how Yoko was characterized, as in almost every book I read (thankfully in those pre-internet days there was plenty of reading materials I could access via the library) that referenced the subject - it was clear that whatever else was going on, she made John very happy and was a fascinating character in her own right.
.

what about mark chapman? yes he is a murderer but there are more murderers who commit worse crimes (multiple) who have the chance of bail and/or are released after their term. if life is 25 years then mr chapman should be free now but due to the high profile of ther person whom he killed he will, probably, never get out. is this fair? it's not the same, no, but it is still a person being treated differently due to association with a famous person
“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

'I protest!' Behemoth exclaimed hotly. 'Dostoevsky is immortal!”

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Re: sexual abuse in music

Post by angelsighs » Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:35 pm

olan wrote: This appears to be quite nasty. According to the Guardian Gira has owned up to an 'intimate encounter' but denies rape. :cry:
very worrying. he's basically now backtracked and admitted there was an 'incident' and it's come down to the horrible matter of whether it was technically rape or not.. why quibble about semantics, it's just a horrible situation all round.
I know it's often best to try and separate the art from the artist but not sure if I could give any more of my money to a guy like that.
The Dr wrote: what about mark chapman? yes he is a murderer but there are more murderers who commit worse crimes (multiple) who have the chance of bail and/or are released after their term. if life is 25 years then mr chapman should be free now but due to the high profile of ther person whom he killed he will, probably, never get out. is this fair? it's not the same, no, but it is still a person being treated differently due to association with a famous person
not sure that's a valid comparison to be honest? kind of a different situation and a different debate for another day.

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Re: sexual abuse in music

Post by mojo filters » Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:54 pm

Yeah I don't quite understand the Chapman comparison.

Out of interest I used to have a great book analyzing the murder of Lennon. The author's theory was that all behaviour exhibited before during and after indicted evidence that Chapman was "programmed" in some way (a bit like theories about the RFK assassination) possibly by rogue intelligence agency elements. The comparison made was with the fictional film The Manchurian Candidate, and the case made was very compelling!

Of course maybe as a long-haired anti-authority anarchist-leaning flower power child born too late to live through the summer of love, but making up for it through a thoroughly retro taste in music - I was probably not quite as objective back then, compared with the balding cynic obsessing over my ever expanding middle-aged waistline and diminished long lost youth of today ;)

As far as I can recall - whilst Yoko Ono has been unfairly accused of many negative things related to the life of John, she was not considered a factor nor a suspect, in either the police investigation nor any literary accounts concerned with his untimely death!
No one ever says "Robert Mueller - that guy just shoots from the hip!"
No one ever says "Robert Mueller - what an erratic fellow!"
That is a contained man! He's the human equivalent of those Japanese watermelons.

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Re: sexual abuse in music

Post by The Dr » Wed Mar 02, 2016 3:46 pm

o my point was simply that people seem to get treated differently depending on who they 'know' so to speak. yoko had years of people lambasting her for the 'death' (i've read the press clippings!) of the beatles and subsequently everything she has done has come with the asterix *ended the beatles, mr chapman, yes he is a killer and my thoughts on punishment are irrelvant but by the letter of the law if he was given a life sentance he should have been released and also had the possibility of parole/reduced sentences for good behaviour/time spent etc but due to his assosiation with a beatle he is treated, possibly, unfairly so i was wondering if people thought of him as some guy who killed another and went through due process as set out by the courts or if he was the ******* who killed lennon and must suffer more. personally if he has served his time i'd release him under the witness protection to protect his life. better things have been done to help worse people (drug lords who get children hooked, peadophile racists etc)
“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

'I protest!' Behemoth exclaimed hotly. 'Dostoevsky is immortal!”

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Re: sexual abuse in music

Post by niamhm » Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:37 pm

The Dr wrote:o my point was simply that people seem to get treated differently depending on who they 'know' so to speak. yoko had years of people lambasting her for the 'death' (i've read the press clippings!) of the beatles and subsequently everything she has done has come with the asterix *ended the beatles, mr chapman, yes he is a killer and my thoughts on punishment are irrelvant but by the letter of the law if he was given a life sentance he should have been released and also had the possibility of parole/reduced sentences for good behaviour/time spent etc but due to his assosiation with a beatle he is treated, possibly, unfairly so i was wondering if people thought of him as some guy who killed another and went through due process as set out by the courts or if he was the ******* who killed lennon and must suffer more. personally if he has served his time i'd release him under the witness protection to protect his life. better things have been done to help worse people (drug lords who get children hooked, peadophile racists etc)
He got a 20 to life, indeterminate life sentence, can`t see how he`s being treated unfairly. I would still see him as the ****** who shot Lennon personally.

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Re: sexual abuse in music

Post by runaway » Wed Mar 02, 2016 8:27 pm

Can we get back to talking about sexual abuse in music please?

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Re: sexual abuse in music

Post by niamhm » Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:13 pm

runaway wrote:Can we get back to talking about sexual abuse in music please?
Don`t let me stop you getting the ball rolling again if you`ve got something to add,

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Re: sexual abuse in music

Post by Rinker » Mon Mar 14, 2016 4:15 pm

a quite horrible subject, no laughing matter

but I couldn't help but be reminded of this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY26l5SAxJs

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Re: sexual abuse in music

Post by semisynthetic » Fri Mar 18, 2016 2:16 am

I obtained this decades ago before the disgrace of what he was doing was made known.
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Re: sexual abuse in music

Post by The Dr » Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:30 am

niamhm wrote:
I would still see him as the ****** who shot Lennon personally.


that's my point. he is treated differently due to the person whom he killed as opposed to others who murder more or others and are treated differently. i'm not advocating mr chapman at all. i think murder is terrible and everyone who does it, depending on circumstances of course, should be treated with in the harshest manner- worthy of but not more than the crime, but i feel that each should be treated equally regardless of celebirty etc the same way yoko should be judged on her art (if you can call it that :wink: ) opposed to her realtionship with some guy and some band

getting back to sexual abuse. does your opion of the person doing it change? my favourite director is roman polanski. in his autobiography he speaks candidly of what happened and i fing myself sympathetic towards him, probably more than i should be but then it is his art i adore, not him, for i have never met him but i find myself making excuses to lesson his behaviour and support the fact he did not go to prison and end up on the register
“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

'I protest!' Behemoth exclaimed hotly. 'Dostoevsky is immortal!”

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Re: sexual abuse in music

Post by The Dr » Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:45 pm

Seminal girlband All Saints have spoken about the rampant industry sexism they experienced at the start of their music career in the 1990s.

Speaking ahead of the release of their first new album in a decade, the band's main songwriter Shaznay Lewis said that producers at Top of the Pops, the BBC's flagship music TV show, wanted to film the women topless.

"They were filming images of us to use as a backdrop and they wanted us to take our tops off," she told the BBC in a recent interview. Producers had wanted to shoot them from the shoulders up to make it look as though they were singing nude.

"The vision was that we looked naked and we didn't want that vision," added Natalie Appleton. "But because it was such a huge show, we were told 'if you don't do it, you don't get to go on the show'," her sister Melanie said.




Sexism was rife across the music industry in the 90s, according to the band, who have recently reunited for a second time since 2006, which followed a first, more acrimonious split in 2001, in an argument over a combat jacket which escalated.

The band claims that their unwillingness to "play the game" and do things like saucy FHM cover shoots. It earned them, they claim, an unfair label as sulky.

"A lot of Britpop groups at the time would act very arrogantly and very stroppy, but that was never seen as a negative thing," said Melanie. "We weren't half as bad - but if we didn't want to smile one day, or we weren't really interested in doing an interview, we'd be labelled as stroppy cows."

A spokesman for the BBC said: "We're not able to comment on something that is alleged to have happened nearly 20 years ago, but today we seek to ensure that everyone working at the BBC does so in an environment in which they are comfortable."
“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

'I protest!' Behemoth exclaimed hotly. 'Dostoevsky is immortal!”

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Re: sexual abuse in music

Post by The Dr » Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:43 am

http://www.nme.com/news/best-coast/93040


the sad thing is how shocked i am for a moment and then i think 'yeah but who is surprised?' it is terrible
“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

'I protest!' Behemoth exclaimed hotly. 'Dostoevsky is immortal!”

The Dr
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Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:32 pm
Location: some forgotten memory/ midday of eternity

Re: sexual abuse in music

Post by The Dr » Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:39 pm

As the Johnny Depp domestic abuse claims reveal, we are too quick to make excuses for men we admire

The backlash received by Amber Heard for claiming she suffered abuse by her estranged husband is yet another reminder that men are always given the benefit of the doubt over the women they are said to have hurt.
By
Sarah Ditum

Maybe he didn’t do it. Maybe that man you care about didn’t do that awful thing to the woman you don’t care about very much. Maybe this time, of all the times, is Gone Girl in real life and that man you like – the sports star one, or the actor one, or the musician one, I’m not going to specify – really is the victim of a vicious feminine plot to destroy him. After all, you’d know the real thing if you saw it, wouldn’t you? You’re no rape apologist. You’d never harbour liking or admiration for a man who was abusive or violent to women. We all know that this is at the core of your moral thinking, because you’ve been extremely careful to say so, explicitly, before declaring that this time – this one time – is different.

Well, maybe he didn’t do it. We know that 1.4m women in England and Wales experience domestic violence. We know that one in five women has been the victim of a sexual offence since she turned 16. We know that the volume of violence against women is under-represented in statistics. None of that means that this one man – sports star, actor, musician – did what he has been accused of. Perhaps you have excellent and compelling reasons to believe in his innocence. But, just so we’re completely clear: the fact that you like him is not an excellent and compelling reason to believe in his innocence.

I will let you in on a secret now. A sensational true fact about abusive men. Here goes: pretty much every man who has ever harmed a woman has been liked by someone. Even the ones who aren’t famous have someone to have a pint with. Extraordinary I know, but the ability to be popular with other men – or with other women – has never stood in pristine opposition to the ability to go home and shove your girlfriend against a wall, taking care to focus only on the parts of her body that will stay clothed and covered. Or the ability to tyrannise your girlfriend by jealously monitoring to whom she speaks and what she eats. Or the ability to take a woman to a hotel room and neither know nor care if she’s saying yes or no, or is even capable of saying yes or no.

All the men I’ve known who’ve harmed women have had friends. Sometimes, I’ve been their friend: because one of the strategies of abusers is to isolate the women they victimise, it’s actually easier to be friends with an abuser than with his victim. Unpleasant, I know, but true.

And even when we know what men have done, we don’t like to talk about it. It seems crass somehow to say “that man hurts women”, when he is surely a fascinating and admirable character in so many other ways. William Burroughs shot his wife in the head and Leo Tolstoy raped his wife repeatedly and Roman Polanski sodomised a drugged 13-year-old, but weren’t they geniuses, and wouldn’t it be a shame to let these sad lapses overshadow the genius?

And then, wouldn’t it be an injustice to restrict such generosity to brilliance and condemn the ordinary man? So that guy you work with gets the benefit of the doubt besides.

Because it’s not really about the fact that they’re talented or charming or successful. It’s about the fact that they’re men. There is a quiet conspiracy of power compelling us to preserve every crevice of doubt where a man’s reputation can hold on. It’s true that women are not believed when they come forward with allegations, but even the disbelief has an insultingly shallow quality – if her story becomes impossible to deny then the criteria for her dismissal can be easily changed, and the charge of “liar” replaced with one of “slut” or “gold digger” or “asking for it”. The reason women’s words count for so little is that women are counted for so little.

Hating women is a bonding ritual for men. The locker room chat about who they would and wouldn’t do. The communal rite of shared pornography. The trips to strip clubs, where men perform their pleasure in having women submit. The stags in brothels urging each other to feats of penetration.

Being liked is not just compatible with misogyny: misogyny can be the social code that cements the liking. Patriarchy would have fallen apart a long, long time ago otherwise. So maybe this time, this sports star or actor or musician didn’t do it. It’s possible. And maybe this time, like so many other times, she’s telling the truth. Maybe her life matters at least as much as his career and reputation. That is possible too.

Sarah Ditum is a journalist who writes regularly for the Guardian, New Statesman and others. Her website is here.
“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

'I protest!' Behemoth exclaimed hotly. 'Dostoevsky is immortal!”

is
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Location: Over the city, fucking the future.

Re: sexual abuse in music

Post by is » Fri Jun 03, 2016 4:09 pm

Good thread, The Dr.

Really thought provoking. Bleak, but thought provoking.


Regarding the Depp/Heard thing - it's interesting how 'keep an open mind' and 'innocent until proved guilty' is often code for 'she's an obvious manipulative bitch'.

The facts are we know nothing except what we have been told. You could argue we don't even know that much. You could even say we only know anything at all about it because of who they are.

The other thing that occurs to me, is that there are many ways in which people in relationships (and people not in relationships) abuse each other. Not all of them are physical, and not all of them can you tell who is the victim by defining their gender.

Moving away from music, and also real life* - do you listen to The Archers, at all? People on twitter are all about how evil Rob Titchener is - and so on - and I agree. What is forgotten is that as far as all the characters on the show are concerned, there is only one victim of domestic violence in the village, and it's the man who was stabbed nearly to death by his wife.

*in real life the story has been used to raise £130000 for Refuge, brilliantly.

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Re: sexual abuse in music

Post by is » Fri Jun 03, 2016 4:15 pm

The Dr wrote: that's my point. he is treated differently due to the person whom he killed as opposed to others who murder more or others and are treated differently.

The argument that not all murders are equal is often justified thusly.

When (if?) 'Cop Killers' get harder sentences than people who murder civilians, it's not as some tribute to the individual human being that was killed because anyone thinks they were better than everyone else - it's because of the need to protect the office that they held, and in the hope it would act as a deterrent to others.


(if you believe that we need a police service at all, that is... you might actually believe in an anarchist utopia).

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Re: sexual abuse in music

Post by The Dr » Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:13 pm

is wrote:
The argument that not all murders are equal is often justified thusly.

When (if?) 'Cop Killers' get harder sentences than people who murder civilians, it's not as some tribute to the individual human being that was killed because anyone thinks they were better than everyone else - it's because of the need to protect the office that they held, and in the hope it would act as a deterrent to others.


(if you believe that we need a police service at all, that is... you might actually believe in an anarchist utopia).
firstly thank you for your kind words above- we all here love music, possibly too much :wink: , but it is important to remeber the people behind it

secondly to answer what i have quoted from you in the tv show the west wing they were talking about death sentances for drug kingpins and the other looks at him and says 'don't you think these people live daily with the fear of death over them without the expense of due process?'

personally i think the concept of the 'cop killer' is to do more with police being outraged that they can be shot. for me murder is murder- each person is still alive and if they are bad people, selling drugs to children, murders etc then they should be punished equally (depending on the crime of course, for example a mass murders with a heavier cost than a single etc). yes the police are wonderful in many ways, yes there are people who are harassed for driving under the influence of being black, yes it can be dangerous but they have still opted to do the job. would you avenge a fireman for someone putting a building on fire?

personally i think that if you are going to kill a person you will kill a person, and thank God not many people will or do. what would a good deterant be? death penalty, jail have not worked (maybe it has for the most part, who knows? if murder was made legal would everyone run out and kill the newspaper guy for selling out of mars bars?)



in terms of depp the first i heard of it was when i read the story i copied above so i have no thoguhts on the context. if he did it then he should be punsihed thusly. to be glib for a moment wouldn't that be an awesome prison film staring depp directed by polanksi
“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

'I protest!' Behemoth exclaimed hotly. 'Dostoevsky is immortal!”

The Dr
Known user
Posts: 1383
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:32 pm
Location: some forgotten memory/ midday of eternity

Re: sexual abuse in music

Post by The Dr » Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:26 pm

i was just researching the depp thing and saw this headline in the telegrpah that made me sick
Johnny Depp divorce: Court documents reveal Amber Heard earns $10,000 a month but spends $44,000 on 'basic expenses'
and the article essentailly said she spent too much money. given what i have read it seems likely that he did it and if the defence and media are attacking her spending... no words
“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

'I protest!' Behemoth exclaimed hotly. 'Dostoevsky is immortal!”

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