Mercury Rev Secret Migration

[spzretent]

I know its not new but I have been playing this a lot recently and it fits perfectly into the summer playlist.
I think alot of people gave up on Mercury Rev and this really hits the spot right now.
I cant explain why. It just does.

[G*]

It's funny, I've been mulling over that record recently, too. There's stuff on it that I like, but I have to say that I'm still pretty disappointed by it. Perhaps I need to persevere, but I think it's very weak (compared to their high standards) in too many places. In particular the key change in 'The Climbing Rose' really, really grates with me for some reason. Too saccarine, I suppose. I want to like the record, and in places I do, but I'm just not having it overall.

[TheWarmth]

I haven't listened to it in awhile, but I really dug it when it came out. It's far superior to the previous one, All Is Dream, IMO.

[flamingrev]

This album disapointed me so much.

I wasn't crazy about All Is Dream, although it wasn't bad. Everything before that was gold. About once every 7 months or so I'll revisit it to see if it is as bad as I remember, and it is usually worse. How does one go from such wonderful, impressionistic lyrics of everything before to this awful Dungeons and Dragons "I'm gonna rescue you on my big horse" crap???

The existence of this album angers me. I should sell the fucker back.

[Laz69]

Another band who i no longer get excited with...

Loved Deserter's Songs, although that took a while since they had kinda ditched the inventive-ness and frenzied-ness of previous albums. Songs were good and finally grew on me.

All Is Dream sounded like Deserter's Songs b-sides... couldn't get into it at all, and, god, did i try. Saw them live on the tour at the time and they were very average.

Never even gave Secret Migration the time. Think i heard the single from it, but wasn't convinced.

Personally, they've kinda went the same way as the Flaming Lips. Great band who have ultimately become average (just my opinion!). maybe its just me...

[angelsighs]

Similar story for me- i rather liked Deserters Songs, but then All Is Dream I found rather grating & whiny, not half as good, so I haven't followed them since. Saw them on the tour and they were indeed extremely average. Heard the single from The Secret Migration which sounded better but not enough to make me buy the album.

Than again, i've not got any of their early stuff, but its on the 'To Buy' list. I heard a tune called Car Wash Hair which sounded brilliant.

[runcible]

Than again, i've not got any of their early stuff, but its on the 'To Buy' list. I heard a tune called Car Wash Hair which sounded brilliant.

1st album, Yerself Is Steam, is one of the all time greats. It's more guitar distortion orientated but has, for me, all the great Rev tracks - Frittering, Chasing A Bee, Syringe Mouth... all classics. Try and get the double CD issue with the extra songs: Lego My Ego. That has some fantastic moments too.

The 2nd album, Boces, features a few superb songs (Something For Joey, Hi Speed Boats, Bronx Cheer) but isn't quite as good.

Car Wash Hair was the single in between the 2 and is also wonderful.

Those make up the essential Mercury Rev collection as far as I'm concerned. Every now and then I play Deserter's Songs and it's OK but nothing too special. The 3rd album, See You On The Other Side, was not as good as the 1st 2 and marked the split when David Baker left. Not that brilliant but acceptable.

[They Transmit]

I rather liked See you on the Other side. I'm sure it's because of that super extended psych opener though which just gets bigger n bigger in a good way.
I loved them around Yer self era and the couple of tours in between albums when Grass Hoppers taste barriers hadn't yet arrived and his playing as well as Jonathans was much freer and less studied.
And Car Wash Hair is still in my all time greats list.

[runcible]

Oh - also check out the insane 'Harmony Rockets' album 'Paralyzed Mind of the Archangel Void'. It's one huge piece that throbs and wobbles it's way towards a truly terrifying psychedelic climax. I guess you could sort of call it ambient as it's all this shifting around with occasional mad trumpets. The ending is really brain-crunching in its intensity.

Having said that anyone heard 'I've Got a Golden Ticket' by Harmony Rockets? Not heard anything about it.

[Laz69]

I've got that <rushes away to get it!>

Not heard it for a very long time.

Tracklisting of the EP is:

1. I've Got A Golden Ticket (cover of the song from the original "Charlie & The Chocolate Factory" movie)
2. Tale ScendevaL'Etternale Adore (from the movie "Life & Times Of Jerzy Kosinski")
3. L'Apocalypse Des Animaux (from the movie of the same name)
4. I've Got A Golden Ticket

First track is a big throbbing pop-type song. Actually sounds like some of the current Flaming Lips stuff. Dancy beats and rhythms carry on through Jonathan's vocals.
Second track is an eerie drone piece. Not quite sure it sounds like anything really...
Third track is actually not that bad. Hard to describe it as anything other than "French" sounding until about half way through when some guitar plucking and what sounds like some bowed guitar melt in. Beat picks up pace before some organ-led finale.
Last track is just an extended version of the first track by the sounds of it.

If anyone's interested i could probably throw it up on yousendit or megaupload...

[slim]

Another band who i no longer get excited with...

Loved Deserter's Songs, although that took a while since they had kinda ditched the inventive-ness and frenzied-ness of previous albums. Songs were good and finally grew on me.

All Is Dream sounded like Deserter's Songs b-sides... couldn't get into it at all, and, god, did i try. Saw them live on the tour at the time and they were very average.

Never even gave Secret Migration the time. Think i heard the single from it, but wasn't convinced.

Personally, they've kinda went the same way as the Flaming Lips. Great band who have ultimately become average (just my opinion!). maybe its just me...

A very familiar story, I tried to listen to All is Dream again a couple of months ago and gave up. The Deserter Song B-sides were better.

I saw them live last summer and got bored. It was all very nice but not very interesting just bland, even Godess of the Hiway struggled.

How'd a thought I called them bland when Dave Baker was doing his thang?

[angelsighs]

1st album, Yerself Is Steam, is one of the all time greats. It's more guitar distortion orientated but has, for me, all the great Rev tracks - Frittering, Chasing A Bee, Syringe Mouth... all classics. Try and get the double CD issue with the extra songs: Lego My Ego. That has some fantastic moments too.

Cheers- think i'll take the plunge then. Everyone's descriptions of the early stuff sounds great, right up my street. I was always put off by the horrible artwork- awful early 90s garish 'trippiness'.

Looking on amazon there's a few different versions of Yerself is Steam- with Lego My Ego, others with Car Wash Hair EP and one with a DVD, all at reasonable prices.

[spzretent]

I look at Mercury Rev much like the Flaming Lips. Their early output is noisy. Except M Rev's first two releases are outsatnding and probably heavily influenced by the mid period(and by far best imho) Lips stuff.
Then apparently M rev listened to a shitload of Neil Young and I would lump Deserters Songs and All Is Dream into that catagory. All Is Dream I cant listen to much like others have posted about Secret Migration.
But Secret Migration is just hitting the spot this summer. Like I said I cant explain it. Maybe catchier songs. It actually sounds more "sweet" than the previous two releases.
Heavy Rotation here w/the new Soulsavers, Leonard Cohen reissues, & Man Who Sold The World.

[flamingrev]

I was always put off by the horrible artwork

Madness.

[spzretent]

i rank Boces as one of the all time great album covers.

[runcible]

I look at Mercury Rev much like the Flaming Lips. Their early output is noisy. Except M Rev's first two releases are outsatnding and probably heavily influenced by the mid period(and by far best imho) Lips stuff.

My opinion is that the Lips changed once they met Jonathan Donahue and it was actually them copying him. Their sound was so different once he joined and it was his influence that did it - so Mercury Rev effectively influnced the Lips rather than the other way round. Ronald Jones continued this era and even managed to push it further. Once he left they became utterly turgid. But we've been over that before.

[MUFCSPACEMAN]

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[spzretent]

exactly

[BzaInSpace]

"...The Flaming Lips were great when they were just an idea. As soon as they started playing live and recording stuff, that's when it all went wrong."

When opinions begin to sound like the wankers who review stuff on Amazon, then its time to challenge...

However, neither The Lips or Mercury Rev really 'do it' for me, probably due to their whiny vocals and songs about teeth, spiders and things like that.

I saw both bands supporting each other a few years back and it was disappointing, Rev just played mediocre rock versions of 'Deserter's Songs', and I remember being so bored by The Lips and their wacky shit I went to the bar while they played with their puppets and backing tapes...

In saying that 'See You On The Other Side' is essential, 'Boces' too. But...I don't think 'Yerself Is Steam' has aged particularly well. When I first heard it around '99 I thought it was amazing but i'm no longer convinced. Over familiarity maybe.

Angelsighs - if you haven't heard it though you should check it out. Get the one that has 'Car Wash Hair', the 'Lego My Ego' disc is pretty poor, and has a terrible Sly Stone cover.

Veiko turned me onto the Harmony Rockets album, now that is more like it...

[spzretent]

I respectfully disagree comrade!

Count me in on whin-ey vocals. The noise both bands created in various parts of their careers is spectacular.

Top 5:
F Lips- In A Priest Driven Ambulance
M Rev- Yerself Is Team
F. Lips- Hit To Death
M. Rev- Boces
F. Lips- Transmissions From The Satellite Heart

All glorious noise. Lord knows what Wayne Coyne is singing about but Ronald Jones- geetar hero- puts the pedal to the metal(well not on Priest driven).
And live? They were way up there. Now i'm not, nor never have, bought into the ridiculous alt.performance artwank that they had had to create since the aforementioned Ronald Jones left the band. They suuuuuck now.

Mercury Rev I haven't given up on yet. And based on this cd someone sent from session in April i think a lot of folks will like the new stuff. I'll leave it up to Runcible to upload since I have no idea how to do that(if it hasn't already been leaked). When he gets it of course.

[MUFCSPACEMAN]

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[spzretent]

Your assessment of the worth of their studio work is completely fucked, though.

How can it be? Its my opinion.


please explain.

[MUFCSPACEMAN]

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[runcible]

Its my opinion.

Cool. Have it. I can't be arsed banging my head off a brick wall for paragraph after paragraph with people who are already closed off on the subject. Namely, you and Runcible.


Your disregard for 99-07 Lips seems to stem from this kind of static, unsubtle, adolescent 80's/90's-forged view of 'experimental' guitar rock - the idea that innovation should be effected guitars, the 'skewed pop song' format of transparently pretty melodies married to 'psychedelic' noise, esoteric lyrics ostensibly about nothing in particular and jack all else.
Well, eventually that shit starts to sound rote.

It's like you don't want the artists you supposedly admire to have any creative license. You'd rather they made the noise you want them to make forever and a day, instead of moving on and taking you with them. Which latter is what a real trip should be about.

Besides, you're probably just pissed that they got Peter Mokran to help on a couple tunes. Admit it.

You are cross because I don't like the music they made after those guys left? Strange. When Soft Bulletin came out I was so keen to hear it and was then so gutted that it was musically terrible.

I love innovation. I love development. But if I think the result is rubbish why should I like it? Spacemen 3 made the most howling racket ever heard and I loved it - then they made music of the most tranquil kind I'd ever come across on Playing With Fire. Innovative stuff, and I loved it. What's the problem with disliking something?

You admitted you liked Primal Scream once. So did I. But then the music became appalling and now I loathe them. You seem to share that opinion. Same thing happened with the Lips for me. I tried so hard with the 2 Soft Bulletin and Yoshimi albums, but I believe they are terrible.

You can't have a go at someone simply because they don't like some music.

[spzretent]

MUFC:

I really am quite good at letting go of bands when they go in a direction I dont like.
Otherwise how could I have started this thread in the first place. Mercury Rev have clearly gone in another direction.
What I resent, I suppose, is the mega popularity(indie style) The Lips gained with in my opinion are their two worst releases. This after Ronald Jones left because the drummer couldn't get his habit kicked. The man had a conscience and a heart and couldn't watch Steven slowly kill himself.
Now he gets to play keyboards and drum on videotape.
And the zaniness and kookiness that is the Flaming Lips is just not for me.
I think they suck now.
I mean how old is this schtick w/Wayne in a balloonand pouring fake blood on his white suit gonna go on?
So yeah I like the noisier stuff by far but my lif has gone on swimmingly since they decided to move in another direction.

[MUFCSPACEMAN]

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[MUFCSPACEMAN]

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[MUFCSPACEMAN]

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[spzretent]

the bit about starting this thread is I am fine w/bands, Mercury Rev, I like that go in another direction ie: the alt.country whatever route.
I like all their records.
The difference is I dont like the Lips last 3 records and just gave up(really I gave up after Soft Bulletin). I realize they are stretching the boundaries of their artistic ability. But for me thats my jumping off point.
Ronald did stick around longer than he wanted and was pretty vocal to Steven to no avail. If you ever watch that Fearless Freaks DVD you can see what an asshole Steven was while in the throes of his drug habit. At some point you just have cut bait and move on.
I suppose its the rock n roll version of being in an office setting where one person is bringing down the morale of the whole office. How long can you let this affect your life?

[MUFCSPACEMAN]

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[BzaInSpace]

On/off topic, I always wanted to hear that Flaming Lips album 'Zarieeka', with the 4 discs of different parts of songs to be played instantaneously on different Cd players.

That sounded really interesting, and a possible way forward for crazy music production on another level. Anybody indulged and care to say what it was like?

[alan_cohaul]

Whoa, what high drama!

Starting off with the original topic moreso, I haven't heard The Secret Migration. Unlike alot of people, I really liked "All Is Dream"....I liked how much "bigger" the strings and everything was. That being said, I haven't listened to that OR "Deserter's Songs" for some time now, and I was never as big a fan of "Deserter's Songs" as alot of people were--but the first half of that album is very good.

Anyone see the "Something For Joey" video?

Onto the topic of the Flaming Lips:

I think that most Lips' fans can agree that there's stuff that they don't like by the band. Which means that the band always pushes their style forward. They've had so many different, zany, out there styles that I don't think that they've ever made the same album twice. And that's what divides the fans, but I think that we can all agree that they're one of those bands that consciously go out of their way to not sound the same. Especially a band that's been going for much longer than 20 years.

My thoughts on the major label period:

I grew up with the band since about 1994, so I can't claim to have been into the earlier stuff for as long as some people. But I do really like "Transmissions From The Satellite Heart", and "Clouds Taste Metallic". I didn't originally like "Clouds Taste Metallic", because I think that it was more strictly pop oriented, but it really grew on me. I think it's a really cool album, and I could hear the beginning of the orchestral stuff in "Christmas At The Zoo", and before that, the end part of "Chewing The Apple of Yr Eye"....you know, I might be in the minority, but the closing part of that with the strings on "Chewing..."...even if it was not very long.. sort of became a direction that I anticipated and hoped for.

Which meant that by the time that "Zaireeka" and "The Soft Bulletin", you have to understand, that I was really thinking that those were albums that I wanted them to make, even if I wasn't sure that they'd manifest themselves like that. And when those came out (even though I didn't hear Zaireeka until years after the fact), I was blown away. I think that "The Soft Bulletin" might be my favorite album of all time. For once, Wayne wasn't hiding behind crazy psychedelic freakouts and weird, obtuse lyrical imagery (and certainly no car exhaust epics), it was an album full of very human things. "The Spiderbite Song" was about Steven Drozd getting bitten on the hand by a spider and nearly dying. Alot of the album deals with the harrowing experiences that Drozd had with drugs, kicking the habit, and other existential things. I understand if this is not for everyone, but it's that human struggle with life and death that really makes "The Soft Bulletin" much more real. It's a real emotional statement that resonates on a human level, much more than anything else that they had done before, or after.

When the first notes of "A Spoonful Weighs A Ton" kick in, to me, that's one of the greatest moments in rock history. Wayne's voice cracking over this really lush, sad backdrop, then the massive drums kicking in on one speaker, and this weird synth bassline. I could go into a ten million word essay on why this album changed the way I view music--and the Lips--forever. Maybe it just came along at a time where I thought there was nothing that could be done musically.

Plus, the production methods are amazing. I think that they used something like 96 string tracks for some songs. What has to be considered is that the Lips were on a major label for some time by then, so obviously making a lo-fi record like the early days was out of the question. I think that "The Soft Bulletin" was one of those albums where they just kept on getting bigger and bigger sounding up until that point, and I really commend them on using those budgets to make bigger and better albums. I love the way that they used big synths and mellotrons and mellotron-ish sounding strings.....they fused orchestral elements, pianos, harps, and lush moments with harrowing material, and I don't think that rock music has ever really seen such a collision course (sans The Moody Blues), but the Lips make use of their wacked out psych mendbending philosophies to full effect.

The albums since then are fairly good, but not as good. For once, I do think that they have let a bit of commerciality influence the record making process since "The Soft Bulletin", because the two albums (and EP's) since then have not been as groundbreaking. I think that "Zaireeka" and "The Soft Bulletin" marked an apex of their career where they could still fuse radical experimentation with commercial appeal. "The Soft Bulletin" is still much too "out there" for most fans, even though it's probably much too commercial for the old fans.

Then there's "Zaireeka". This might be the single most inventive album(s) in the course of musical history. The combinations of what this album is or what it could be are endless. On it's own, it stands as four separate cds that could play like four different cds on their own, if they were just to be played alone. Buzzing sounds drift in and out of speakers. Disorienting frequencies pummel you with audio wonder. Dogs (who are probably in torture by now by said disorienting frequencies) even pop up for a big barkfest on "The Big Ol Bug Is The New Baby Now". Drums pound, then disappear into jittery electronics at the drop of a hat. Instruments that don't even sound like real instruments appear. Huge, eerie Queen-esque choirs surface like "Okay, I'll Admit, I Really Don't Understand". Wiggly synths and huge sounding synth mellotron strings snake their way through 8 speakers.

Forget genres, on "Zaireeka", they're a genre unto themselves, a whole new experience that divides them from music, itself.

[MUFCSPACEMAN]

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[MUFCSPACEMAN]

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[runcible]

Christ. I come back from work and see all this stuff.

My view is simply from the fact that I do not like the music the Lips made after 1996. I'll watch a few tracks on the Zaiereeka DVD but it's the match of images and music that make it good. The musical direction was always going to be difficult for me in terms of the fact that the Lips produced some of the greatest music ever made and that came from them being a guitar based band. If the music post 1996 had been great then I'd embrace it. For me it's pretty worthless. I played Soft Bulletin umpteen times, desperately trying to get something out of it that sounded good. I make compilations to play at home, in the car. I searched for a track from Soft Bulletin to include on one as I loved the band so much but there wasn't anything I could actually say I even vaguely liked. And yes I am saying that without a highly talented guitarist like Donahue or Jones the others were a group of good musicians without very interesting ideas (again my opinion - please note).

You say I don't like artists to have 'creative license'. That's not right at all. In terms of musical development/innovation I can give a couple of examples of this going both ways. 1st/2nd Clash albums: Loved the 1st album from a few months after it came out, played it hundreds of times, sort of obsessed with it - that lo-fi sound was fantastic. 2nd album came out - big rock production and everyone around me hated it, crying 'sell out' etc. I love it to this day. For me it's their best record. Then 'London Calling' came out and everyone loves it, but I didn't. I still don't. Talking Heads: I was a huge fan of the initial period. Then 'Remain In Light' came out and I was shocked at the funk element and huge direction change. but I played it a lot and it became my favourite Talking Heads album.

I can't really see the full Spacemen catalogue as being 'lo-fi' - only Sound of Confusion really sounds like that. The 3 main albums are so different from each other that they have to be looked at as a band developing ideas.

Lastly, and vaguely tongue in cheek... Wendy James? Seriously? OK - Bananarama made pop records that were catchy even if I didn't like them. But Transvision Vamp were never anything more than a money making exercise which failed miserably. The music was (in my opinion of course) rubbish, but they stuck a dolly bird in front of a punkish looking band, pumped massive amounts of money into them and hoped for the best. I remember record company execs rubbing their hands at the expected wave of popularity, but it all went flat when the public saw through the idea and realised the music was pitiful. The industry backed them with picture disc CDs (a rarity back then), lush packaging etc. and when I worked at Virgin in London the industry reps were pushing them so fucking hard it actually became a joke between the staff and reps (incidentally the same thing happened with Zodiac Mindwarp - a one trick pony band even if the one trick was a highly amusing one). It didn't work and Transvision Vamp vanished - the first time I heard them mentioned since about 1990 was on this board! Sure I enjoyed a small period of The Cult (when their 'development' took them into a psychedelic sprt of area) and I still like that 'Love' album. They became ridiculous soon after that (I hope you won't criticise me for disliking their innovation!). It's interesting that the 'Love' era coincided with a very short psychedelic scene I witnessed in London in the mid 80's - Erik mentions it in his Spacemen book and quotes me. The goths suddenly had pink and green hair and this uplifting mood hung over places like Portobello and Camden Lock. Acid made a revival, house music hadn't hit, and it was a period I'll always treasure. Spacemen 3 were part of it too but in a different way.

I'll always love the Donahue/Jones Lips era. It took the full band to make those incredible albums and I play them still. For that Wayne, Mike and Steven will command my respect. But I can't listen to the stuff they play now as I really, really don't like it.

By the way who is Peter Mokran anyway? Seriously because I genuinely don't know!

[MUFCSPACEMAN]

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[runcible]

Not mentioning Wendy's post TV career.

The 'Elvis Costello' album? Great. Racine? Even greater. I'm unconvinced by some distance.

Ok then. You dug The Cult. Any Cult, don't matter which. It all sucks.

And that's your respectful response to other people's opinions? Brilliant.

[MUFCSPACEMAN]

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[runcible]

Yep, the Elvis Costello album. And the unreleased one. You've heard any Racine?
Wow, so dismissive for such a casual skim through what you're shitting on.


Unfortunately, I have a brother in law (similarly mired in that cynical 80's indie-boy bullshit) who subjected me to all the Cult I could take years ago, so I can say...

The Cult fathom one of the 80's greatest singles? Great. "She Sells Sanctuary"? Super great. I'm unconvinced by some distance.

"I Want Your Love" is the sound of all cult members being boiled down to a fleshy gruel to be fed to Wendy's dogs (if she has any).

'I don't want your pictures of Marilyn or Bobby D, and I don't want your records your pictures or anything' = I don't want your precious indie boy fanwank shite, fuck me instead if you're man enough.

And that's your respectful response to other people's opinions? Brilliant.

What? The Cult suck? How is that disrespectful to anone but the Cult? If you're gonna slam me, at least pick on the "80's indie boy bullshit" bit of the 'diatribe'.

I already extended the hand of respect and reason. You ignored and gave an eye-rolly, snotty, shruggy response. So forget it. I'm out.

I heard the Elvis Costello album actually. Not good in my opinion. I also heard a couple of songs by Racine on the radio at some point. So I'm wrong - I had heard about Wendy James more recently than 1990 - apologies. But I didn't like those songs either.

Much of the rest of your post puzzled me as I didn't really get it. Apart from the last bit. I was only teasing there. I just saw you saying you'd leave this thread for good and on the spur of the moment I thought I'd bait a little and see if you'd post again. Poor joke I guess. But you responded!

[MUFCSPACEMAN]

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[alan_cohaul]

Whoa, what high drama!

Where?

Great post, though. And I dig those tunes btw. "Electric Midnight" best.

Thanks! I agree with alot of 'yer points, too.

As for the general ongoing "discussion" we're having here, I do like variance in opinions, because it would probably get pretty boring if all we did was like the same things. The way that I viewed the Lips entering the 1997/ 1998/ 1999 ranges, were that they were gonna do something radically different. I felt that they were getting up in years, and that they didn't have to prove how abrasive that they could be anymore. I think the whole idea that they put out "The Soft Bulletin" was a really daring move, because they were at the point where they had amassed enough popularity, where they could have put out regressive albums, instead of progressive albums.

I think that the worst that can be said about any band is when they try to rehash what they did best, and, from a musician's standpoint, there comes a time--often quickly--where you tire of a certain style or specific sound and need to branch out. I was in other bands where they were verse/ chorus/ verse--you know, I love to hear that stuff--but it's not something that really interests me anymore. It was very restricting. You just naturally move on. But when you have expectations, you have two choices--you duplicate what you did in the hopes that it's up to past standards, or you destroy the template and move on. I think that we should all be glad that the Lips never ever really looked back, even if we don't agree with what the material might of actually yielded.

You know, it's amazing the amount of people who's only experience of the Lips was "She Don't Use Jelly" (or in my many encounters, known as the "Jelly" or "Vaseline" song). I'm just happy that anyone has been open minded enough to have any sort of semi to well informed opinion on the albums. I've had a pretty difficult time trying to get people into them, simply because they change up so much, but that, to me, is what makes that band so damn brilliant.

Wayne can be a bit of a....well, he seems kinda goofy onstage at times. But I love the guy's true joie de vivre, that real enthusiastic, genuine love to do what he's doing. Wayne's the crazy conductor, Steven's the madman
scientist, Michael is the silent but creative dude in the background. I don't think that Ronald Jones was as great as people give him credit for; I think all the identities and schitzophrenic geniuses that have been in the band (Donahue, Jones, the early days, etc) were all really influenced by Wayne's zest for being himself, being really true to just being a true weirdo. In the best sense, of course.

And the best part? The Lips' story is open ended. They're still going. They're still continuing to write and shape their own history. I'm glad that they were up for a Grammy (I think they won that, didn't they?) for "War...". They're still really vastly underrated by most people, and sadly, I don't think that alot of the new fans really understand the earliest stuff, but I applaud the Lips for continuing a band that should have been named about 15 to 20 bands now, due to their radically different concepts.

Just me .02.....

[spzretent]

Wayne can be a bit of a....well, he seems kinda goofy onstage at times. But I love the guy's true joie de vivre, that real enthusiastic, genuine love to do what he's doing. I don't think that Ronald Jones was as great as people give him credit for; I think all the identities and schitzophrenic geniuses that have been in the band (Donahue, Jones, the early days, etc) were all really influenced by Wayne's zest for being himself

Interesting because the only period of the Lips I own is from Priest Driven Ambulance thru Transmissions. Which was all but dismissed. But that is your opinion and I respect that.
Obviously I realize I am in the minority, albeit a vocal minority, on this since the last three Lips records have outsold the previous catalog 10 times over(or more).

But the constant thing that hasn't changed is the wacky stage presence of one Mr Wayne Coyne. It just seems to have become worse or more annoying. Admittedly I saw them on the Soft Bulletin and then Yoshimi tours and gave up 'cuz it seemed like the same exact show a few years apart. Maybe its to deflect attention from the fact the drummer isn't really drumming. i dunno.

[flamingrev]

The Lips have had a live drummer for a couple of years now. I personally had no problem with the video drummer and I kind of liked how it irritated people.

Wayne no longer does the blood thing. They do phase elements of their performance out and change the setlists a little after each round of tours. I agree that they could shake it up more, but lately they've been playing Mountainside and Moonlight Mile which is great.

The wacky stuff they do in concert is not performance art in any way. I think Wayne would roll his eyes at the words "performance art." Wayne has repeatedly said, and I think he's mistaken, that people don't come to Lips shows to see the Flaming Lips. They go to hang out with their friends and party and go home and try to get laid. I think this is a huge misperception that is possibly rooted in his humble views of the band's abilities. But with that in mind, when they play they reinforce the festive party atmosphere with balloons and confetti and visual gimmicks. Personally, I think that if you go to a Flaming Lips show and you stand there with your arms crossed thinking about what a gimmick it all is, then you have a hard time just relaxing and having a good time.

I like all of the Lips catalogue after Telepathic Surgery, with some select songs from their earlier stuff. It's only natural that some people are not going to like the later, dense, syrupy stuff, just like some people that got into the band later on might not ever really appreciate what was so stunning about Ronald Jones.

Ronald left the band for a variety of reasons, although Steven was the straw that broke the camel's back. I try not to let the personal politics of band members affect how I hear the music. Most musicians are self-obsessed assholes, so if I started taking that into account I wouldn't have much music to enjoy. Forget about ever enjoying the music of Lou Reed.

The first time I was exposed to Mercury Rev, they were opening for the Jesus And Mary Chain on their last tour. I think only one of the brothers was left at that point and it was terrible. But Mercury Rev was outstanding. Very restrained and atmospheric, it blew me away. The last time I saw them was in support of All Is Dream and it was awful. Really, really terrible. In the way Jonathan handled himself he had started mimicking aspects of Wayne the showman, except he couldn't really pull it off because he's so awkward. And the band had tightened up in a professionally boring way.

I don't think the Lips or Mercury Rev ever really copied each other much. They definately had a similar MO at one point, which is natural considering that the leaders of both bands spent a lot of time together. Early Mercury Rev captured the sound of an acid-drenched mind spasming and trying to right itself, and The Flaming Lips trip at the time was similar but much more melodic and poppy.

Zaireeka is amazing and gorgeous.

[alan_cohaul]

Admittedly I saw them on the Soft Bulletin and then Yoshimi tours and gave up 'cuz it seemed like the same exact show a few years apart.

Yeah, it's the same thing, though in fairness, it's really hard for bands to be different, especially since props and everything that goes with it is often very expensive to design and change up.

Maybe its to deflect attention from the fact the drummer isn't really drumming. i dunno.

I noticed that at points, too....why didn't they have a drummer that was actually drumming? They must play with tape assist? Which makes sense, because everything post Zaireeka would be very difficult to pull off, live, due to the built up nature of it. I'm assuming that the drummer doesn't drum because of the tape assist, and the coordination of it all?

The wacky stuff they do in concert is not performance art in any way. I think Wayne would roll his eyes at the words "performance art." Wayne has repeatedly said, and I think he's mistaken, that people don't come to Lips shows to see the Flaming Lips. They go to hang out with their friends and party and go home and try to get laid. I think this is a huge misperception that is possibly rooted in his humble views of the band's abilities. But with that in mind, when they play they reinforce the festive party atmosphere with balloons and confetti and visual gimmicks. Personally, I think that if you go to a Flaming Lips show and you stand there with your arms crossed thinking about what a gimmick it all is, then you have a hard time just relaxing and having a good time.

Some good points.

Most musicians are self-obsessed assholes, so if I started taking that into account I wouldn't have much music to enjoy. Forget about ever enjoying the music of Lou Reed.

Yes! I guess it's the "separate the music from the person" type thing.

[flamingrev]

They have a live drummer now, and they have for two or so years.

When they had taped drumming, it was because they needed Steven to play keyboards/guitar/effects pedals/VCR and they didn't want to bring in an outside person to drum. And they were already (and still) using taped backing to fill out the sound. A lot of what they did on the Soft Bulletin and afterwards could not be replicated by a 3 or a 4 piece band. I think they simply didn't care that not having a live drummer would wig people out.

Their current touring drummer, Kliph Scurlock, is pretty cool and answers any questions posted in his section on the Flaming Lips forum. I think he was a roadie and they drafted him when they were playing as Beck's back-up band. They had to have a drummer to fill that out, and Beck said that he had somebody and Beck didn't take care of it so Kliph was recruited at the last minute. He pretty much copies Steven's parts with slight variances that reflect his style, and he does a good job.

[Spacehead]

Sorry to revive life into this interesting thread, but i've been a big Spiritualized, Mercury Rev and Flaming Lips fan for a good eleven years or so now. I can't really add a great deal to this debate except to say that of course every band are going to go through rough patches musically where the ideas that they express don't go down too well, it's inevitable. Personally, I couldn't stick At War With the Mystics for a while after its release, even after I saw the Lips perform many of its songs live - but because the Flaming Lips are a band that seem to lurch from one extreme to another, never seemingly hanging around one musical area for long, that's why I fully respect them for having the balls to try different things.

For me, the Soft Bulletin is an amazing album - yes, it was toured without a live drummer, but that to me doesn't detract from the sheer quality of the songs on it. Lets face it, Wayne Coyne grew up in the progression to its release (98-99), his Dad sadly passed away and it matured him and gave him a very different outlook on the music he and his band produced.

Anyway, I speak as I find. I'm not going to criticise anyone for liking musicians that I don't, that's none of my business - but I really dig music that has a great affect on me as a person, and all three of the bands mentioned (Spz, MR and TFL) mean a great deal.

[BzaInSpace]

Quite right pal. Its sadly easy to forget - in a single witty retort on a thread for example - the effect music has on others. A bit of consideration goes a long way.

Some of my mates think the Flaming Lips [modern version] are one of the greatest bands - or the greatest live band they've ever seen so in the words of Eurythmics 'who am I to disagree?'. And so the same should be here. Someone - apologies for not noting your name - mentioned a crowd standing there with their arms crossed at gigs. Those people should have stayed at home, aye?

My earlier comments about the Mercury Lips - well, i wasn't feeling 100% that day. Live it like you love it. I sincerely hope those bands will come back with some music to blow me away. And maybe they have...

An admission - I have yet to hear the last albums those bands have released. So really I don't know what the fuck i'm talking about really.

[Spacehead]

Quite right pal. Its sadly easy to forget - in a single witty retort on a thread for example - the effect music has on others. A bit of consideration goes a long way.

Some of my mates think the Flaming Lips [modern version] are one of the greatest bands - or the greatest live band they've ever seen so in the words of Eurythmics 'who am I to disagree?'. And so the same should be here. Someone - apologies for not noting your name - mentioned a crowd standing there with their arms crossed at gigs. Those people should have stayed at home, aye?

My earlier comments about the Mercury Lips - well, i wasn't feeling 100% that day. Live it like you love it. I sincerely hope those bands will come back with some music to blow me away. And maybe they have...

An admission - I have yet to hear the last albums those bands have released. So really I don't know what the fuck i'm talking about really.

Hey, there's nothing wrong with a bit of debate BzaInSpace!

As people rightly say, if everyone in the world enjoyed the same kinds and genres of music, how boring would life be? There certainly wouldn't be much left to discuss, that's for sure!

[Stuart X.Hunter]

Hey, there's nothing wrong with a bit of debate BzaInSpace!

As people rightly say, if everyone in the world enjoyed the same kinds and genres of music, how boring would life be? There certainly wouldn't be much left to discuss, that's for sure!

I think what you and Bza are saying is true but sometimes it is not a debate per se that actually unfolds on these boards.
The very word; debate means consider...a considered approach...
Sometimes, there is a little lack of consideration from posters...I'm guilty...hell we're probably all guilty at some stage of spouting off something that we believe to be definitive and that should be definitive to all and sundry...but this really is not the case.

Anyway...i'm sure there's a fortnightly "love-in" about here somewhere...

[Laz69]

Anyway...i'm sure there's a fortnightly "love-in" about here somewhere...

Just leave yer keys on the table Mr. musiK!

[Stuart X.Hunter]

I always thought there was something odd about the numbers at the end of your name!

[flamingrev]

I'm a member of a few different music forums. Sometimes I'm really taken aback by how much the tone of language changes from forum to forum.

I spend the most time at the Ween forum, and what passes for debate there is hilarious. Everyone here is very, very, very polite compared to elsewhere.

[Shaun]

...i'm sure there's a fortnightly "love-in" about here somewhere...

A waiting list to get in on that, or just a clique away ?

[BzaInSpace]

Anyway...i'm sure there's a fortnightly "love-in" about here somewhere...

Just leave yer keys on the table Mr. musiK!

Whats the fella doing on the floor - balancing drinks?

[alan_cohaul]

Whats the fella doing on the floor - balancing drinks?

I think it has something to do with getting salads and tossing them? Bwahahaaa.