Richard Ashcroft's guitar playing

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twentysixdollars
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Richard Ashcroft's guitar playing

Post by twentysixdollars »

In a severe fit of Verve-are-reforming intoxication, this evening I put on Alone With Everybody for the first time in, oh, four or five years. It's still lousy, by the way, so at least I remembered that part clearly enough. One thing that did catch my attention as I was perusing the liner notes (besides the second thing I'd forgotten, which was the inset photograph of Kate Radley in a bikini top) was that there's no credit for a second electric guitarist, besides B.J. Cole. A lot of songs that have a lot of conventional lead guitar (cf. the fade of "A Song For the Lovers") credit only Ashcroft for guitar. Does this mean Ashcroft is actually a proficient/competent lead guitarist? For years I thought it was Simon Tong I was hearing.
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Post by TheWarmth »

I actually kinda dig Alone With Everybody. I haven't listened in years, but there is some good stuff on there. The b-sides are excellent to (XXYY, for example). As far as Ashcroft's guitar playing, he isn't bad, I suppose, but I think his solo stuff would have benefited greatly from a real lead guitarist. Now that I think of it, there isn't anything that could have helped Human Conditions. That album is an unforgivable dud. Keys To The World is only a tad better.
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Post by radioshack »

He's actually not a bad guitar player-he definitely had to improve when he went solo, because I think in the Verve days he was nothing more than a rhythm guitarist with a few chords under his belt. He obviously played the guitar a hell of a lot more between the Verve ending and starting to record his solo stuff, and if I recall correctly he said as much in a interview with him I read in Total Guitar.

I also remember seeing him on Jools Holland last year doing weird, freak-out stuff that you wouldn't normally expect from him.

I liked the cool guitar lead lines in Song for the Lovers, they're really accomplished and well executed. And scarily enough I think it was Ashcroft that played them.
twentysixdollars
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Post by twentysixdollars »

radioshack wrote:I liked the cool guitar lead lines in Song for the Lovers, they're really accomplished and well executed. And scarily enough I think it was Ashcroft that played them.
Yeah, it's definitely the fade-out of that tune that made me suspicious. The runs are impeccably timed and pretty intricate. Now, anyone who plays guitar professionally for 10 years is eventually going to get good at it, and some of the acoustic rhythm parts on Urban Hymns are unusually detailed, but if Ashcroft was actually that good, why did they even bother with Tong? Unless he couldn't play those parts and sing at the same time, which makes a species of sense.

Anyway, if that's really him (and on "New York" too?) then I respect him more. He's learned something from McCabe. Almost makes me anxious for some Love-style (cf. "A House is Not a Motel") duel-guitar freakery on the forthcoming Verve album!
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Post by radioshack »

twentysixdollars wrote:
radioshack wrote:I liked the cool guitar lead lines in Song for the Lovers, they're really accomplished and well executed. And scarily enough I think it was Ashcroft that played them.
Yeah, it's definitely the fade-out of that tune that made me suspicious. The runs are impeccably timed and pretty intricate. Now, anyone who plays guitar professionally for 10 years is eventually going to get good at it, and some of the acoustic rhythm parts on Urban Hymns are unusually detailed, but if Ashcroft was actually that good, why did they even bother with Tong? Unless he couldn't play those parts and sing at the same time, which makes a species of sense.

Anyway, if that's really him (and on "New York" too?) then I respect him more. He's learned something from McCabe. Almost makes me anxious for some Love-style (cf. "A House is Not a Motel") duel-guitar freakery on the forthcoming Verve album!
I don't think Ashcroft is great at constructing music around his songs, and so when it came to going solo and having to form the music without someone as talented as McCabe by his side, he threw every instrument and idea at his songs whilst in the studio. I think during this process he must've been forced to play much more guitar than ever before, and therefore became much more competent as a guitar player.

I'd love some Love-style duel-guitar noise on the record too, it would be fantastic, but I'm not really holding my breath. I hope I'm wrong, but I imagine Ashcroft will revert to his acoustic chords on record and live, maybe even drop his guitar more now they're closer to the original line-up, and McCabe will have the space to work his magic. I don't really know if Ashcroft is built for much dual guitar stuff. Even before Tong, I think McCabe was responsible for all those little complex riffs we could hear(compare the studio version of On Your Own to a solo Ashcroft performance, which is normally kind of plain and heavy-handed, even by solo performance standards).

Having said that, I love how you've highlighted the small, but amazing acoustic touches on UH. It's immensely difficult to replicate the intro to Sonnet or The Drugs Don't Work. Even the intros of Space and Time and Velvet Morning always blew me away. Again, there wasn't really anything on Ashcroft's solo records to touch those moments, no matter how many string and horn riffs he threw in all over the place. But I'm glad you touched on this, I thought I was the only one that could hear these brilliant touches on UH.
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Post by twentysixdollars »

I agree with everything you've said, radioshack, but have to make one correction:
radioshack wrote: Even the intros of Space and Time and Velvet Morning always blew me away.
From what I've heard, the intro of "Space and Time" at least was constructed independently by McCabe, which is why it sounds so otherworldly and processed by comparison to the earthier (though still intricate) acoustic riffs that open "Sonnet", "Drugs", and "Velvet Morning". In any event, this discussion has given me a new perspective on Richard Ashcroft as a musician, and for that I'm appreciative.
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Post by twentysixdollars »

Now that I've made an attempt to transcribe the phrase in question from "A Song for the Lovers", I discover that it's mostly in the open position -

Code: Select all


E --------------| -------------------|  1-0-----
B --------------| -------------------| (3)-3--5
G --------------| ----0h2-4-2-2p0----| (2)----4
D --------------| 0h2---------------|----------
A (3)-----------| -------------------|----------
e 1(...)-0h1----| -------------------|----------
 
...which would be consistent with a hobbyist/self-taught guitarist. (Professional/trained guitarists tend to prefer fretted notes, which are easier to control. Hobbyists prefer open notes, which are easier to make.)

Also of musical interest - the move from bar one to bar two, which involves a Dolphy-sized jump of nearly an octave. It only seems apparent to me that this is in the open position, by the way, because that low F note couldn't be anywhere else. By the way, at the moment I can't hear any of bar three (or even much of bar one) so what's above is just a placeholder.
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Post by jadams501 »

Let's not forget the magic of OVERDUBBING - Ashcroft certainly hasn't.

The way that Alone With Everybody was cripplingly overproduced with thick layers of strings and slide guitars and sampled effects makes it likely that Cole probably did everything.

Ashcroft is an amazing singer and songwriter, and he can even bash out some convincing if simple acoustic versions of songs in radio sessions and such, but playing real colorful guitar is not one of his strengths.
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Post by bunnyben »

[quote="twentysixdollars"]Now that I've made an attempt to transcribe the phrase in question from "A Song for the Lovers", I discover that it's mostly in the open position -


...which would be consistent with a hobbyist/self-taught guitarist. (Professional/trained guitarists tend to prefer fretted notes, which are easier to control. Hobbyists prefer open notes, which are easier to make.)

quote]


do you sit there listening to a song and woner if the notes are being played on open notes?

waiting for the man is just two cords palyed in an simplistic manner and it sounds AMAZING! is that all that matters? if you dig you dig if not so be it
'raging and weeping are left on the early road
now each in his holy hill
the glittering and hurting days are alomst done
then let us compare mythologies
i have learned my elaborate lie
of soaring crosses and poisened thorns'
radioshack
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Post by radioshack »

twentysixdollars wrote:Now that I've made an attempt to transcribe the phrase in question from "A Song for the Lovers", I discover that it's mostly in the open position -

Code: Select all


E --------------| -------------------|  1-0-----
B --------------| -------------------| (3)-3--5
G --------------| ----0h2-4-2-2p0----| (2)----4
D --------------| 0h2---------------|----------
A (3)-----------| -------------------|----------
e 1(...)-0h1----| -------------------|----------
 
...which would be consistent with a hobbyist/self-taught guitarist. (Professional/trained guitarists tend to prefer fretted notes, which are easier to control. Hobbyists prefer open notes, which are easier to make.)

Also of musical interest - the move from bar one to bar two, which involves a Dolphy-sized jump of nearly an octave. It only seems apparent to me that this is in the open position, by the way, because that low F note couldn't be anywhere else. By the way, at the moment I can't hear any of bar three (or even much of bar one) so what's above is just a placeholder.
Hmmm, interesting. I remember when I first heard this song,I knew I had to work out how to play that riff. At this point, I'd been playing guitar maybe four years, but I found the riff up around the 5th and 7th frets on the A and D strings, and played the final few notes around the 6th and 8th frets on the B and G string. I'm a self-taught guitarist, does that mean with A Song for the Lovers, I'd finally crossed over into the professional/trained zone?

Another (and I'm sorry, this is very geeky) point worth mentioning is that in the Urban Hymns guitar tab book (which I waited for for years incidentally, and had no use for when it did eventually get released because I'd taught myself the whole album by ear) a lot of the lead parts, particularly the outro of Sonnet is transcribed in this 'open' playing style that you've detailed above. To me, this made no sense and was an incorrect way to transcribe the song, as it's clear McCabe/Tong is playing higher up on the fretboard on the lower strings. I imagine it was possibly tabbed this way for beginners to be able to play the song easily. Watching the Haigh Hall performance validates my theory that they played the song using the 'professional' method. Also, I remember a few years ago Total Guitar did a much more accurate transcription of Sonnet, and they used the 'professional' as opposed to 'beginner' technique.

Finally, the ....Lovers scale is similar to the Sonnet scale in terms of the notes used. On the recorded version of Sonnet and the HH version, McCabe glides from that low F way up to a high E with ease by using the 'professional' way of playing. Maybe this technique was used on A Song for the Lovers too. Having said that, I still buy the theory that it's more likely overdubbed guitars playing different riffs. The song's production is so dense it's hard to tell. Who knows-everyone accused Ashcroft of going for singing lessons between UH and AWE, maybe he went for guitar lessons too.
twentysixdollars
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Post by twentysixdollars »

Interesting. The one thing that it sounds as if we can all agree upon is that Alone With Everybody (and Ashcroft's solo albums generally) are brought to the point of unlistenability by overproduction. It seems to me that Ashcroft's association with Chris Potter has been very damaging to him professionally and musically if not commercially. What he needs is someone to reign in his obsession with the studio. What I wouldn't give for a smallish, let's say countryish acoustic album.

I hope, on the album-in-progress, they're producing themselves. Or using someone hands-off.
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Post by MUFCSPACEMAN »

...
Last edited by MUFCSPACEMAN on Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:13 pm, edited 14 times in total.
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Post by mojo filters »

radioshack wrote:Almost makes me anxious for some Love-style (cf. "A House is Not a Motel") duel-guitar freakery on the forthcoming Verve album!
That would be absolutely class, and Nick McCabe would no doubt produce something rather special :D
I'm like Evel Knievel, I get paid for the attempt. I didn't promise this shit would be good!
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Post by bunnyben »

MUFCSPACEMAN wrote:Benny, $26 was just trying to ascertain if it's Ashcroft playing (ie. figuring that an untrained or less experienced player would play a string open as opposed to fretting the same note on the next string down).



Long post, 12 edits, haha, sorry..
ah ok, persoanly i don't think it really matters, i love the story that will sergeant from the bunnymen took 4 albums to relaise that the cords follow the alphabet- that's a great example of instinct over training. when you see ashcroft live he plays on harld y any songs that either could suggest he likes the freedom to move or that he has people in the studio to do it for him in the studio and on stage, and his credits are just an ego boost, unlike julian casblancas (the strokes) who demos the songs on gutair then dosen't feel that he's good enough to play on the album.
'raging and weeping are left on the early road
now each in his holy hill
the glittering and hurting days are alomst done
then let us compare mythologies
i have learned my elaborate lie
of soaring crosses and poisened thorns'
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Post by TheWarmth »

$26, I'm totally with you regarding the Ashcroft/Potter connection. I hope it's not Potter who is producing the new Verve album. I could also deal with a mellow/acoustic Ashcroft solo record, but I'm nervous that his songwriting skills just aren't what they used to be. I don't think it's all down to his use of the studio and overproduction that made the last two solo albums weak. The songs just weren't that good. Lyrically, he has really lost me. I hope this new Verve album is a return to form. It'd be a shame to taint their stellar catalogue.
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Post by alan_cohaul »

Speaking in general, lead guitar is such a beautiful thing to be able to do, it opens up songs and songwriting, immensely--especially for moods. I took lessons up to a certain point, and it really helped to learn the scales and how there's a ton of ways that you can play to create a certain mood, and you realize that the general vibe of the solos are often only as good as the chord sequences behind it, and you start to get better at arranging major to minor stuff and better at writing, in general, for everyone to sound better over.

Alot of people frown on it, but if you get very good at improvising leads and scales, you can make stuff up on the spot that sounds terrific, and if you really get good at it, you can make even errors sound like they were meant to be there. Hey, if the guitar is the extention of the penis, you might as well play it! :D
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Post by a beautiful noise »

NO,NO,NO!!

it's like a sore dick, you can't beat it.





sorry...
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Post by sendy »

I have to say, its great that some people have recognised Ashcroft for his guitar playing. Listen to the playing on Check The Meaning, Precious Stone, God In the Numbers: its beautiful. Its not difficult, but it works something special.

I have to take issue though with the 'consensus' that has emerged over Alone With Everybody. This is the one instance in his solo career where the production beautifuly complements the songwriting.

Listen to the lush, pedal-steal enveloped track that is Slow Was My Heart. The 3rd verse ("Fly, fly my plane...") is one of the most brilliant homeages to Grevious Angel era balladary in recent times. Also, the "i'm just like eveyone" outro in this song is as touching as some of Dennis Wilson's greatest moments...honestly!

As for 'I Get My Beat', this is his greatest post Verve achievement. The production in the last 2 and a half mins of this song is simply astonishing. The choir, the staccatto trombones/strings, the deep swampy guitar riff, the "its a beautifull thing" refrain...how can people on THIS site not be seriously movede by this!? Its a tradegy that he never again came close to recreating that sound again in his solo career.

A Song For The Lovers, has been appreciated already here. But the production again is brilliant. The French Horns, the wall of strings, the huge drum beat...this is impressive stuff.

I could go on- Brave New World, You On My Mind, On A Beach, Everybody...this is amongst the best balladary by a Brittish songwriter in the last 20 years. The only duff moments are the slightly irritating Crazy World, and Money To Burn tires at times.

YES, Human Conditions and especially Keys To The World (a terrible album) have poor production. Yet this is mainly due to the POOR songs. This is exactly where Alone With Everybody succeeds.
I agree that he should have moved away from the big string laden approach (The Pooter Approach) after Alone With Everybody, but it DOES work here.

Also, listen to the b-sides from the AWE era from the singles A Song For The Lovers and Money To Burn-

Precious Stone
Could Be City Thing...
XXYY
Leave Me High

The session players play like they are truly inspired by the songs. The rest of his solo b sides, by the way, are appaling.

Anyway point made. Bring on the flack...
twentysixdollars
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Post by twentysixdollars »

Uh, actually, "Money To Burn" is one of the few songs on that LP that I really like. I think it's an excellent pastiche of "Good Times" (the Spiritualized tune) and just about the only thing on that album that is actually recognizable as rock and roll. "Crazy World" is tolerable as well. And most of the ballads (barring "Everybody") are OK.

To me, the one unmitigated failure is "I Get My Beat" - pompous and flabby beyond belief.
alan_cohaul
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Post by alan_cohaul »

a beautiful noise wrote:NO,NO,NO!!

it's like a sore dick, you can't beat it.





sorry...
Haha.
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