forth special edition

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bunnyben
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forth special edition

Post by bunnyben »

i bought it today for my friends birthday present, resisted getting myself a copy, i bought her the nice booklet with a documentry and watched the documentry, (i know, i shouldn't have), and it's 15 mins of simon jones reminding us that he's a bit of a..., mccabe talking bout a few things and some fans going, theyre great *tumbs up* plus live footage. no interviews with assscroft or salisbury.

there is a booklet with a few pictures and some of the albums best lyrics, aparently. 'souls made in china', 'esspresso, double shot for judas' he really catches the soul of blake- milton-blake-ginsberg-asscroft.

all in all a tepid superfictial film not worth the extra £5, not worth a penny of the 15.
'raging and weeping are left on the early road
now each in his holy hill
the glittering and hurting days are alomst done
then let us compare mythologies
i have learned my elaborate lie
of soaring crosses and poisened thorns'
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Re: forth special edition

Post by TheWarmth »

My wife ordered me the double-lp (not the $100 mega special version) for my birthday. Can't wait to get that in the mail.
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Re: forth special edition

Post by bunnyben »

the lp looks amazing, happy birthday!
'raging and weeping are left on the early road
now each in his holy hill
the glittering and hurting days are alomst done
then let us compare mythologies
i have learned my elaborate lie
of soaring crosses and poisened thorns'
jadams501
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Re: forth special edition

Post by jadams501 »

Does anyone have the bonus tracks from the FORTH LP, Muhammad Ali and Ma Ma Soul? If so could you possibly post/PM links?

Thanks!
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Re: forth special edition

Post by radioshack »

Yeah, the deluxe boxset thing is great.

Listening to the album right now. So far it's all a bit samey. But I have grown to like Love Is Noise. And Sit and Wonder is immense. As always, I'll give it a few listens before I decide, but too much piano and strings and not enough McCabe geetar.

Anyway....
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Re: forth special edition

Post by spzretent »

Admittedly i've not heard any of this record but who were these people who did the early reviews? They all claimed it was a return to form, old form. Which is something i would welcome with open arms.
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Re: forth special edition

Post by angelsighs »

finally got Forth. Will be posting my thoughts on it soon. Its a right old mixed bag but there is a lot to like on it. But anyone expecting a return to the sound of the early days will only intermittently be pleased i'm afraid.
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Re: forth special edition

Post by spunder »

well i'm very disappointed, after a pleasing early start....even beginning to like that bloody single, it goes a bit shit. The production lacks any sparkle and really drags it down. Noise Epic should be immense but it sounds like a demo. The 2 best tracks are the bonuses on the vinyls; Ma Ma Soul and Muhammed Ali are both frickin brilliant, cant understand why the rest of the album doesnt sound this good!
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Re: forth special edition

Post by SpaceLine »

i am certainly not blown away but it is a decent record and i'm happy about that. i didn't necessarily expect their best work ever so i am not disappointed. i do think the 2 bonus tracks should have replaced 2 of the weaker 'ashcroft' ditties but there is still enough solid mccabe influence to satisfy. my main complaint is the record is too soft but not in a storm in heaven kind of good way.

hopefully this will be a solid building block for another record.
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Re: forth special edition

Post by ck1dini »

Could someone please PM the 2 Bonus Tracks from Forth (Mama Soul & Muhammad Ali). Thanks.
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Re: forth special edition

Post by TheWarmth »

That's your first post here, ck1dini?

Well, I'm excited to hear those bonus tracks when my vinyl arrives. I think the album is pretty good. Noise Epic is kindof a bummer because it just sounds thin, but I think a lot of the songs sound really great ("Judas," for example). The only other track that really bugs me is "Valium Skies" because the lyrics are so bad. Based on the title, you'd think it might be interesting, but Ashcroft basically tacked on the word "Valium" to the same set of words he's been recycling for the last fifteen years. It could have been a great tune if he would have spent a little more time on the lyrics.
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Re: forth special edition

Post by Multi »

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Re: forth special edition

Post by burst »

If people here think the single is now good and one of the better tracks on Forth I am moving in the direction of not even wating to hear the album at all!
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Re: forth special edition

Post by spzretent »

by Verve standards..... its not good. Not good at all. Its clearly their "Forth" best record.
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Re: forth special edition

Post by spunder »

its actually making me enjoy Urban Hymns!!!
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Re: forth special edition

Post by ORBITAL »

Why did they feel the urge to use a teletubbies sample on the single
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Re: forth special edition

Post by Multi »

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Re: forth special edition

Post by spzretent »

Was that out of 100?
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Re: forth special edition

Post by Multi »

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Re: forth special edition

Post by TheWarmth »

For what it's worth, the Onion (literally my favorite weekly source of news these days), gave Forth a B+, while Lindstrom's Where You Go I go Too, which scored an 8.6 out of 10 recently in Pitchfork, was only awarded a B-. At this point, though, I think I should stop reading posts and opinions about the new Verve LP and just enjoy it.
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Re: forth special edition

Post by spzretent »

With all due respect, afternow having listened to it twice, this record sounds like an Ashcroft solo record w/a few actual good tunes. How the other three members agreed to put out this stymies me to no end.
I think its poor. A waste of $10.
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Re: forth special edition

Post by toomilk »

I just listened to it for the first time and it's not as bad as I thought it would be (especially considering what you have all been saying). Nothing spectacular. It sounds like an Ashcroft solo album with The Verve as the backing band.

That said, it makes an amazing solo album - compared to the others.
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Re: forth special edition

Post by twentysixdollars »

"Judas" makes the whole affair worthwhile. It's simply, purely, lovely. Honestly, one of their most enchating songs ever. Ever!

I like "Noise Epic" and "Columbo" a lot. "Appalachian Springs" is good, in the "Weeping Willow" vein - it reminds me of a Gene Clark song, "Gypsy Rider".

The rest? Ehh...especially the first half. I don't hate "Love Is Noise" anymore, but I'm a long way from liking it.
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Re: forth special edition

Post by cantona »

a big disappointment. And yes it sounds like an Ashcroft solo album.
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Re: forth special edition

Post by bunnyben »

it doesn't sound like an ashcroft solo- atleast those albums have a few gopod songs on them and not an anoying over glossed, indie club vibe *reaches foir tight jeans, pointy shoes and army jacket and libertines album*
'raging and weeping are left on the early road
now each in his holy hill
the glittering and hurting days are alomst done
then let us compare mythologies
i have learned my elaborate lie
of soaring crosses and poisened thorns'
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Re: forth special edition

Post by bunnyben »

love is noisey is anoyingly catchy now. i made a comp cd for my uncle and his g/f and put it on but felt the need to write a note to apologise for ashcroft's lyrics
'raging and weeping are left on the early road
now each in his holy hill
the glittering and hurting days are alomst done
then let us compare mythologies
i have learned my elaborate lie
of soaring crosses and poisened thorns'
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Re: forth special edition

Post by jahman »

considering what they are capable of, this is a letdown.
there are a few great tunes (Sit and Wonder, Judas) but its too non threatning to be the Verve.
its closer to his solo material than anything else.
hopefully we'll get a full tour out of this record...
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Re: forth special edition

Post by bunnyben »

jahman wrote:
hopefully we'll get a full tour out of this record...
aren't they on the verge of breaking up again? ashcroft is going to make a new solo album and according to reviews they don't even look at each other on stage. lends back to the money theory i'm afraid
'raging and weeping are left on the early road
now each in his holy hill
the glittering and hurting days are alomst done
then let us compare mythologies
i have learned my elaborate lie
of soaring crosses and poisened thorns'
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Re: forth special edition

Post by angelsighs »

Here's where i stand at the mo:-

Columbo is the best song by a country mile.

Closely followed by Sit and Wonder and Appalachian Springs (obviously a solo Ashcroft song at heart yes, but the band take it to another level- it lifts and surges in all the right places- stunning.)

Judas is lovely, if a bit soft.

Noise Epic/Numbness- still not sure about these.

Love Is Noise- you know what, i'm coming round to it? quite euphoric in its own way and makes more sense in its place on the album.

Rather Be- alright.

I See Houses- shite.

Valium Skies- utter shite.

Overall observations- Nicks influence seems to be felt more as producer than guitarist- apart from a few obvious examples his guitar is pretty darn low in the mix. If this is anyone's record it's Pete & Si's- the rhythm section is mixed loud and chunky throughout.

Weirdly the best thing to come out of the reunion is still The Thaw Session.

So not a bad album, but yeah hardly shows the bands potential. Dissapointing.
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Re: forth special edition

Post by warmgun. »

I can kind of see why people are disappointed with this album and disillusioned with the reunion as a whole, especially after all of the scuttlebutt about it being a return to their earlier sound, the promise of the Thaw Sessions, etc... But after my umpteenth listen, I have to say that I think it's still a pretty good record overall. Certainly not the great return-to-form that was promised, but regardless I don't think it should be dismissed so quickly... I mean have some people given up entirely on the concept of letting an album grow on them with repeated listens? Surely it's not that bad as to write it off after one or two spins... I mean people are even coming around to Love Is Noise...

As for the accusations that it's just a glorified R.A. solo album - I think that they are definitely founded - especially in songs like Rather Be, Judas and Valium Skies, but wasn't that the case with U.H. anyway? It was the original R.A. solo album after all - wasn't it? I think we have to face the fact that for better or worse, in '08, the Verve are (much like the Verve in '97), more or less under the direction of Ashcroft and it's a little naive (I was definitely in this camp when I was hoping that Let The Damage Begin would make it onto the album...) and will only lead to disappointment to think or hope otherwise. The other guys have their place and are definitely most welcome key supporting players as anyone with ears can tell, but they're probably no longer going to put out albums as challenging or beloved to hardcore fans as ASIH or ANS - at least not while songs a la Bittersweet Symphony and to a lesser extent Love Is Noise are bringing them bigger crowds and magazine covers!

Anyway, as much as I am not a huge fan of the second and third R.A. solo albums (still like AWE well enough), I for one am willing to stick my neck out for this incarnation of the Verve (is it obvious yet?) and despite the album's obvious lyrical flaws ("cheeks like peaches"??) and less than inspired songs (Rather Be, Valium Skies) I am happy that they put it out... if nothing else, it should lead to more shows and hopefully more McCabe influenced material, which we definitely weren't getting while the band was apart (I keep hearing how great the b-sides/bonus tracks are - which again is a definite throw-back to the U.H. trend of keeping the more out-there stuff off the album!)

On a final note, I personally think that Columbo and Judas are fantastic songs and Appalachian Springs is simply put a great closer!
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Re: forth special edition

Post by jpbowman »

The 2 extra tracks that feature on the vinyl can be found here...

http://valiumskies.blogspot.com/

Listed as song + song 2
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Re: forth special edition

Post by JPB »

Thanks for the link.

I've bought Forth but have not had the guts to listen to it yet. I listened to A Northern Soul for the best part of a year. Loved it. Thought it was one of the best records for a while. Urban Hymns horrified me. I loathed the production and thought it masked the lack of decent song writing. However I did love the accoustic b-side version of The Drugs Don't Work.

I'm going to bite the bullet and listen to Forth over the weekend.
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Re: forth special edition

Post by Multi »

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Re: forth special edition

Post by James T »

Despite some terrible lyrics, this album is very good.
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Re: forth special edition

Post by radioshack »

Well this album's gone to number one in Britain. Gotta wonder what all those Urban Hymns fans are making of it.
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Re: forth special edition

Post by spzretent »

no one has ever accused the general public of having good taste.
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Re: forth special edition

Post by James T »

Have you not heard Mika? The general public LOVED him so they must have some taste.
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Re: forth special edition

Post by spzretent »

James T wrote:Have you not heard Mika?
i have not.
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Re: forth special edition

Post by James T »

Lucky you!
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Re: forth special edition

Post by moop »

forgetting the album for a second, they played a life's an ocean-> rappers delight jam when i saw them last month. was this a regular on the setlist for the rest of this tour?
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Re: forth special edition

Post by angelsighs »

moop wrote:forgetting the album for a second, they played a life's an ocean-> rappers delight jam when i saw them last month. was this a regular on the setlist for the rest of this tour?
yep.
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Re: forth special edition

Post by moop »

angelsighs wrote:
moop wrote:forgetting the album for a second, they played a life's an ocean-> rappers delight jam when i saw them last month. was this a regular on the setlist for the rest of this tour?
yep.
i suspected as much. didn't really feel like there was much spontaneity going on, *except when ashcroft got half way through TDDW and stopped playing, telling everyone he was never gonna play the song again* i was thinking, awesome, they're gonna break into she's a superstar or something. but nooooo, he decided to just play the song over again.

...or was that whole thing a regular in their set too? :roll:
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Re: forth special edition

Post by TheWarmth »

jpbowman wrote:The 2 extra tracks that feature on the vinyl can be found here...

http://valiumskies.blogspot.com/

Listed as song + song 2
Yeah, these songs are really cool. Muhammad Ali should have been on the album. Also, I totally disagree about the Thaw Sessions being the best recording to come from the Verve reunion. "Sit & Wonder" is killer. There are at least six songs on the album that I'd much rather listen to than that poorly recorded 14 minute jam, interesting as it may be.
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Re: forth special edition

Post by bunnyben »

moop wrote:
angelsighs wrote:
moop wrote:forgetting the album for a second, they played a life's an ocean-> rappers delight jam when i saw them last month. was this a regular on the setlist for the rest of this tour?

...or was that whole thing a regular in their set too? :roll:
when i saw him solo he said after history 'it was writen as a train of thought i've never got it all right before until today...' when i saw the verve after history he said 'it was writen as a train of thought i've never got it all right before until today...'
maybe i'm his X factor? brings out uniquie expereinces 8)
'raging and weeping are left on the early road
now each in his holy hill
the glittering and hurting days are alomst done
then let us compare mythologies
i have learned my elaborate lie
of soaring crosses and poisened thorns'
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Re: forth special edition

Post by angelsighs »

TheWarmth wrote: I totally disagree about the Thaw Sessions being the best recording to come from the Verve reunion. "Sit & Wonder" is killer. There are at least six songs on the album that I'd much rather listen to than that poorly recorded 14 minute jam, interesting as it may be.
I agree that Sit And Wonder is awesome, but for me the Thaw Session is pretty special. It has a free form flow that I love, Pete's drumming is really jazzy and intricate, Ashcroft is sailing over the top of it rather than trying to construct a chorus.. Thats not to mention all the guitar tricks McCabe is pulling out of the bag. The recording quality is fairly rough but i like that- it has a nice warm analogue sound, like you are in the room with them playing. Compared to that Forth is very shiny and plastic sounding in places.
moop wrote: i was thinking, awesome, they're gonna break into she's a superstar or something.
it would be so amazing if they did that.
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Re: forth special edition

Post by twentysixdollars »

Forth doesn't seem to be holding up to close scrutiny in my household. Part of the problem is the attempts to juice the tempo - Verve have always plodded more convincingly than they raced, and "Columbo" and "Noise Epic" are vaguely embarrassing for this reason (though totally listenable), as is "Love Is Noise" (which is less listenable). "Sit and Wonder" has yet to bowl me over - "Judas" is still the only one that thrills me.
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Re: forth special edition

Post by radioshack »

I'm really into Judas too. Numbness is starting to get to me too.

I think I've kind of judged this album too quickly. Even Love is Noise, which I detested, has started to grow on me. When it comes on the radio I realise how good it is. Just the way the bass kicks in, then that cool 'All In the Mind' type guitar figure climbs and climbs.

Still too smooth in the production, and still too much like an Ashcroft solo record. But I'm beginning to grow to the record, and it's nowhere near the disaster it's been written off as.
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Re: forth special edition

Post by TheWarmth »

What he said ... exactly.
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Re: forth special edition

Post by angelsighs »

radioshack wrote: Still too smooth in the production, and still too much like an Ashcroft solo record. But I'm beginning to grow to the record, and it's nowhere near the disaster it's been written off as.
yep this pretty much hits the nail on the head.
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Re: forth special edition

Post by burningwheel »

radioshack wrote:
....I think I've kind of judged this album too quickly..
i've only listened to it once but i like it. i then followed it up with urban hymns, a true way underrated classic
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Re: forth special edition

Post by radioshack »

burningwheel wrote:
radioshack wrote:
....I think I've kind of judged this album too quickly..
i've only listened to it once but i like it. i then followed it up with urban hymns, a true way underrated classic
Sacrilege to say it on here, but I love Urban Hymns. I love their first 3 albums equally.
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Re: forth special edition

Post by spzretent »

My .02 cents Verve completely lost me after A Northern Soul!
There were a handful of excellent tracks on UH but that is a far cry from the first two.
It is exactly where Richard assumed control. And spelled the beginning of the end.
Forth blows. I dont even count it as a Verve record. To me its still ASIH, ANS & UH. End of discussion in my humble opinion of course :shock:
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Re: forth special edition

Post by burningwheel »

spzretent wrote:My .02 cents Verve completely lost me after A Northern Soul!
There were a handful of excellent tracks on UH but that is a far cry from the first two.
It is exactly where Richard assumed control. And spelled the beginning of the end.
Forth blows. I dont even count it as a Verve record. To me its still ASIH, ANS & UH. End of discussion in my humble opinion of course :shock:
i used to think UH was a RA album but i've changed my mind. i would probably rank it 3rd best, but it's a great album i've decided
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Re: forth special edition

Post by angelsighs »

Urban Hymns may be the weakest 90s Verve record, but its still an awesome set of songs- the differences in quality between those first three album really are incremental.
It may be more of a Richard album, but with hindsight we can now see that period was his peak in terms of conventional songcraft- even the songs on that acoustic demo bootleg (Oh Sister, Dont You Want Me) piss all over the recent stuff. He was in the zone then. People also tend to forget the awesome UH B Sides when they start saying they went downhill after ANS or whatever. I don't think you can generalise like that.

Still finding Forth a total curates egg- Judas is flowering nicely now, its absolutely gorgeous. I still don't 'get' Noise Epic at all- even though on paper it sounds right up my street.
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Re: forth special edition

Post by Stuart X.Hunter »

I guess from the temperate approach to this thread most people were expecting the album to be disapointing. I concur. Thought it was it awful.
I believed the lead in two songs (which are actually awright allbeit in a "play the verve by numbers" kinda way) were going to be a precursor to something good.
How wrong I was.
Mine was duly dispatched after 2.5 listens to a mate I play football with...hope he gets some enjoyment out of it.
It left me scratching my head as to what direction they are taking/who they are wishing to appeal too?
I don't consider it a Verve album but equally I don't think it comes up to par with RA solo stuff either.
Guess magic is something you can't produce and rather it is something that arrives unnanounced...to me there is a complete lack of that "je ne sais quo!"
Anyway it got me on to thinking...were they ever really any good?
Seriously, that's how much apathy I felt when I heard it.
Thankfully they were but only really for a 4yr period IMO; from the release of the gritty Blue to the kick in the nuts that was Bitter Sweet.

Anyway, as for Forth; funny that title conjours up images of giant strides in the same way that verve relates (to me) as something perpetually seeking out something else...maybe the realisation has dawned on them, that that something is not really there and therefore the hunger to attain it dissipatated. To put it another way; they struck me in there prime as a gloriously restless foursome...searching, constantly searching for that epiphany...moment...maybe it's been and gone or maybe it's still to come. Well, when they come to start looking again least they'l know that others are still looking too.
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gottafire
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Re: forth special edition

Post by gottafire »

Sounds just like Ashcroft and friends all over again for me...I've played it a lot and just can't like it. It's not grown on me at all sadly...I really thought with the thaw session that they had found their magic again but alas this is not the case...
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jadams501
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Re: forth special edition

Post by jadams501 »

Has anyone's opinion of Forth become more favorable over time?

Judas was an early favorite of mine, and although I still think Ashcroft's vocals are amazing in it the song hasn't quite held up for me.

But my opinion of Sit & Wonder, Rather Be, Noise Epic, Columbo, and Appalachian Springs has gone up -- and a bunch of the b-sides and other stuff are really good too.

I'm really glad the album exists and that we got some good gigs out of the reunion.
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Re: forth special edition

Post by radioshack »

jadams501 wrote:Has anyone's opinion of Forth become more favorable over time?

Judas was an early favorite of mine, and although I still think Ashcroft's vocals are amazing in it the song hasn't quite held up for me.

But my opinion of Sit & Wonder, Rather Be, Noise Epic, Columbo, and Appalachian Springs has gone up -- and a bunch of the b-sides and other stuff are really good too.

I'm really glad the album exists and that we got some good gigs out of the reunion.

I listened to the album a lot in 2009, and a little in 2010. But after that, it hasn't been on. I'd give it 6/10. Being blunt, there's 10 songs on it, and I'd only bother with 6 of them. The whole thing ultimately (I'd say) was worth it for the Thaw... jam, Mover, Sit and Wonder and some of the B-side jams. I was pretty obsessed with Judas, as were a lot of us. But I don't know if it will stand up like ASIH does/will. Maybe you just have to be in the mood. What grated was the Ashcroft solo lean of the material that I hoped would be avoided, and having McCabe back on guitar again, only for him to be buried so low in the mix. Almost a wasted opportunity, but not quite.


I think it's pretty ridiculous they fell out so quickly and broke up within two years again. What the hell is going on there? Or was it purely just for money, so Ashcroft could hire American producers for his nasty solo music? I'd hope they'd make a couple more records, some cool jams and maybe it would inspire Ashcroft to write better songs rather than the tacky stuff he seemingly held onto throughout the reformation and return to the band. It's a weird one.
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Re: forth special edition

Post by TheWarmth »

I pretty much agree. There are about six good to great songs on it. The rest is pretty limp. "Noise Epic" certainly doesn't live up to its name. "Valium Skies" is horrible and I believe I read that it was originally intended for a Dickie solo LP (makes sense). The two songs they chose for singles, "Love Is Noise" and "Rather Be," are both pretty lame, if not entirely intolerable.

I've been looking forward to the Black Ships album for ages, but so far there is no word on a release date or live dates. Frustrating.
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Re: forth special edition

Post by angelsighs »

my opinion is pretty much the same- it's the worst Verve album but still has some great moments. much better production would have helped (and yes some of the B sides were great too) but it's weird to have a Verve record where I actually have to skip tracks every time.

I'm on the fence whether the reunion was 'worth it'. Sit and Wonder, Judas, Columbo and Appalachian Springs are great. The Thaw Session was the best thing to come out of the whole period. the gigs were really variable as well.
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Re: forth special edition

Post by niamhm »

The boost on the thread had me listening again this afternoon ,its still an okay album ,agree with most ,6 good songs ,but nobody mentiond my fav.Numb ,the only true Verve track IMO,superb psychedelic blues and the only track you can really hear Mcabe doing his stuff.
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Re: forth special edition

Post by angelsighs »

niamhm wrote:Numb ,the only true Verve track IMO,superb psychedelic blues and the only track you can really hear Mcabe doing his stuff.
I would rate Numbness as one of the 'almost good' tracks on there, its okay but something just isn't quite right. The clean and chunky guitar and general air of doom places it in the vein of So It Goes or Country Song but it's nowhere near as good as either. it also outstays it's welcome (something I rarely find my self saying about Verve tracks)
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Re: forth special edition

Post by jadams501 »

angelsighs wrote:
niamhm wrote:Numb ,the only true Verve track IMO,superb psychedelic blues and the only track you can really hear Mcabe doing his stuff.
I would rate Numbness as one of the 'almost good' tracks on there, its okay but something just isn't quite right. The clean and chunky guitar and general air of doom places it in the vein of So It Goes or Country Song but it's nowhere near as good as either. it also outstays it's welcome (something I rarely find my self saying about Verve tracks)
I agree with you that Numbness is along the same lines as So It Goes and Country Song, and in general is the track from Forth that sounds most like the Northern Soul sessions. Numbness is probably also the weakest of the three, but it's pretty close to Country Song, which at 9 minutes overstays its welcome more than Numbness imho! I really like the mostly instrumental Country Song demo, but there's something about the finished b-side version that sounds a bit too much like a parody of Nirvana and/or 90s American alternative. Maybe the song as a whole is slightly better than Numbness, but it doesn't have anything quite as cool as Nick McCabe's awesome bluesy solo.
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Re: forth special edition

Post by angelsighs »

yeah the solo on Numbness is probably the best bit on it but it should end after that. it just goes back to the main riff and chugs along a big longer, becoming monotonous.

to be fair the B side version of Country Song is (wisely) a good minute or so shorter than the ANS demo
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