My Review of the new Richard Ashcroft LP

jadams501 · Post by **jadams501** » Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:35 pm

The good folks at The Verve Live were kind enough to ask me to write a review of the new Richard Ashcroft album, which has just been published. If anyone would care to read it, I'd appreciate your feedback!

http://thevervelive.blogspot.com/2010/0 ... sound.html

Already There · Post by **Already There** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:50 am

Ashcroft himself sounds passionate and energized â€“ sometimes too much for his own good.

I like how you put that because I totally agree with it. That's really the only thing that bothers me about his new songs.

NO IDâ€™s production is mostly effective, but multiple tracks are marred with an irritating R&B singer pseudo-rapping or repeating something ad infinitum in the background.

Also in need of work are many of Ashcroftâ€™s lyrics. The better tracks feature his trademark philosophical ramblings, inspirational sermonizing, and paeans to spiritual love, but several include at least one line cringe-worthy enough to hurt the song. Itâ€™s not encouraging for the man who wrote â€˜Science of Silenceâ€™ to randomly name check Venus and Serena Williams in the middle of â€˜Born Again,â€™ or for the talent behind â€˜Bittersweet Symphonyâ€™ to refer to people â€œout there in The Matrix tonightâ€ in â€˜This Thing Called Life.â€™ Such lyrics are adequate for demos, but itâ€™s somewhat shocking that someone whoâ€™s done as much multi-tracking as Ashcroft didnâ€™t overdub something less awful for an album release â€“ or at least leave the offending bit on the cutting room floor.

XD That's my problem with his solo work in general. It's really fascinating if you compare "Bitter Sweet Symphony" with the songs because it's really hard to beat those lyrics. They're some of the best lyrics he's ever written, but it's rather shocking to think it's the same man who wrote them. And yes, "Science of Silence" is another brilliant song lyric-wise. Maybe his best solo lyric. (I am very fond of Don't Take Me In, it's such a perfect song that basically consists of only this one line, but this is much better than cringe-worthy filler lines. And musically... It's very straight-forward and repetitive, but not overproduced with hundreds of instruments. Minimalism is often better than too much.)

The explanation is simple: early Verveâ€™s evocative psychedelia did not require much in the way of elegant songcraft, and even as he became a formidable songwriter Ashcroft could rely on The Verveâ€™s dynamism to flesh out the track.

I agree and disagree at the same time. Yes, the music of early Verve was just this brilliant, but I also never had the feeling that he got really better. I mean, Bitter Sweet Symphony being one of few exceptions. I don't particularly like quite a lot of his later lyrics. Even though he has said himself that his early writing was too influenced by outer sources and not authentic enough, but I actually disagree with him there. I believe that even if what you write is not 100 % your own, it can be very very authentic and I think in most cases it'd be that for me, except for a couple of the later songs. Come on, Sonnet? He can do better than that. It's nice to sing along to, but that doesn't mean it's good.

Even his weakest material has more soul than most, and there are a number of excellent tracks on the new LP. â€˜Let My Soul Rest,â€™ a stunning confessional that builds to a euphoric catharsis, is one of the best songs Ashcroft has ever written.

Very true.

Grade: B-

That's still a rather good grade it got in the end. It sounded more like a C or something, especially if I look at what you have written.

I enjoyed the review a lot. I think it mentioned the most important points and made all the necessary comparisons there needed to be regarding his solo work and his work with The Verve. The review seems very straight-forward and to the point. In most cases I can totally see where you're coming from. Thanks for sharing.

TheWarmth · Post by **TheWarmth** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 3:09 pm

You seem very down on his first two albums. Personally, I think Alone With Everyone is the peak of his solo career. There are quite a few gems on that album and it's b-sides. It's really the only period of Ashcroft solo that I consider worth investigating. Based on the tracks I have heard (just a few songs) and read about the new one, AWE is a far superior album.

jadams501 · Post by **jadams501** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:43 pm

Thanks for reading!

TheWarmth wrote:You seem very down on his first two albums. Personally, I think Alone With Everyone is the peak of his solo career. There are quite a few gems on that album and it's b-sides. It's really the only period of Ashcroft solo that I consider worth investigating. Based on the tracks I have heard (just a few songs) and read about the new one, AWE is a far superior album.

AWE is definitely the superior album. Richard's voice is in better form and compositionally it's way stronger, with none of the cringeworthy lyrics on the new album. But some of it is overproduced with goopy orchestrations that weigh down the material -- Human Conditions is less ambitious production-wise, which in some ways is unfortunate but also doesn't get in the way of the material as much as on AWE. I think both of those records would have been better with a real band playing the material, though -- particularly Verve but also the UN of Sound.

There are gems to be found across everything Ashcroft's done, I'd say, even if there's a lot of disappointing filler.

As for the latest album, I was on the fence between a C+ and a B- . I suppose because the LP is frontloaded with the weakest material so that by the time it's over I remember the better stuff.

TheWarmth · Post by **TheWarmth** » Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:28 am

There are definitely plenty of cringeworthy lyrics on AWE: I get my beat with you / when we see things through/ and I think about you all the time. I can't believe that is lodged in my memory somewhere.

I have to disagree that having UNS as a band on the first album would have made it better. I just don't like the style (or lack thereof) of their playing. To me, it's even more generic than that of the players on AWE.

Minky · Post by **Minky** » Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:58 am

Richard Ashcroft's solo shit sucks! So boring.

jadams501 · Post by **jadams501** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:49 am

TheWarmth wrote:There are definitely plenty of cringeworthy lyrics on AWE: I get my beat with you / when we see things through/ and I think about you all the time. I can't believe that is lodged in my memory somewhere.

I have to disagree that having UNS as a band on the first album would have made it better. I just don't like the style (or lack thereof) of their playing. To me, it's even more generic than that of the players on AWE.

I don't think that lyric is particularly bad... a bit by the numbers I suppose but not more than J's umpteenth lyric about heroin=love=god . Enjoyable for the fans, I'd say.

I don't know how much UNOS would have added to I Get My Beat or Song For The Lovers but they would have to have enhanced New York, Crazy World, Money To Burn, and C'mon People. All of those are pretty good songs that are really let down by the utter failure of the album versions to ROCK -- of course Verve would have been ideal but UNOS is more than capable of making those into the anthems they try to be but don't quite manage.

Already There · Post by **Already There** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:16 am

Minky wrote:Richard Ashcroft's solo shit sucks! So boring.

It's definitely nowhere as good as what he did with The Verve. I get really angry at him and myself that I don't seem to see the point in most of his solo work. I love four or five songs, but most of the rest doesn't really appeal to me. Too mainstream maybe?

TheWarmth · Post by **TheWarmth** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:54 pm

Most artists' careers have an arc to them and they peak at some point. Every now and again you'll run across one that has multiple peaks, but I think that's rare. It's pretty obvious that Ashcroft peaked years ago. It probably has a lot to do with the fact that he's not struggling for success and he's not as hungry for it as he used to be. It's just the way it goes sometimes. I'm a huge Luke Haines fan, but his new stuff isn't nearly as good as what he did with the Auteurs/Baader Meinhof. Luckily, it's not as bad as what Ashcroft is releasing these days, though.

jadams501 · Post by **jadams501** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:39 am

While production and arrangement have consistently been a problem with Ashcroft's solo stuff, in terms of songwriting and singing he's had some great moments that stand up with his best songs for the Verve -- Check The Meaning, Science of Silence, Break The Night With Colour, etc..

Usually there are 3-4 songs per LP that really show a lot of promise. Obviously I'd prefer LPs from Ashcroft that are consistent in the way Verve's are, but there's a lot of good stuff if you're willing to sift through it a bit.

Multi · Post by **Multi** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:22 am

TheWarmth · Post by **TheWarmth** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:11 pm

Multi wrote:
TheWarmth wrote:Most artists' careers have an arc to them and they peak at some point.

While true, it's ultimately a cop-out for making excuses for an "artist." There is no legitimate reason for an artist to release sub-standard material... ever.

Not sure I agree. While I don't know what's going on in Ashcroft's brain, he probably thinks that the material he is releasing is excellent. It's not as if he isn't trying, either. I'm not defending the dude's records, because I don't like the majority of his solo stuff. What I am saying, though, is that he's been releasing albums and touring consistently for 15 or more years (including his time in The Verve, of course) and that alone takes a unbelievable amount of hard work. Sometimes the magic just isn't there anymore and I think that's the case with Ashcroft. Think about it: how many artists do you know that have released more than, say, 4 albums and not had at least one "sub-standard" effort?

Multi · Post by **Multi** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:24 pm

radioshack · Post by **radioshack** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:07 pm

If Ashcroft had released only an EP between 2000 and 2010 I might be inclined to think he was still on top of his game

1. Song for the Lovers
2. Break the Night with Colour
3. Music is Power
4. Keys to the World
5. Slow was my Heart
6. Science of Silence
7. C'mon People

That probably would have done me. Meaning he has around a 15% success rate with his solo career.

angelsighs · Post by **angelsighs** » Wed Sep 08, 2010 7:01 pm

Interesting points being made here about artists intentions versus the end results. Its true that they may put as much work, passion and integrity into their work as they ever did, but after someone has peaked the end results just don't measure up. But still, who are we to deny them the chance to express themselves, even if we aren't feeling it?

I'd probably be a bit kinder to Ashcroft with his solo career, I reckon he probably amassed about an albums worth of good material, would probably include:

Song For The Lovers
Leave Me High (gorgeous)
I Get My Beat (I like the lyrics!)
You On My Mind In My Sleep (to be fair, some plain weird lyrics in this one)
On A Beach
Slow Was My Heart (good choice radioshack)
Check The Meaning (NOT the 8 min version though)
Paradise
God In The Numbers
Science Of Silence (great pop song)
Music Is Power
Sweet Brother Malcolm

jadams, I think you are being far too kind to the new album. AWE is still his most solid solo work I think.

TheWarmth · Post by **TheWarmth** » Wed Sep 08, 2010 7:39 pm

I think the b-sides from the first two singles were great and all of them should have been on the first album:

(Could Be A) Country Thing, City Thing, Blues Thing
Precious Stone
Leave Me High
XXYY

In fact, I'd say that every one of these songs is better than "A Song For The Lovers." If he could have maintained this level of quality, I would still be a fan. I'd also like to add that I saw him solo acoustic (no backing band) in Chicago after the first album came out and it was superb. He played some of the big Verve classics as well as a large chunk of AWEand it was fantastic. So, I will always argue that his solo career has not been a total waste. However, I never connected with Human Conditions or anything after that.

jadams501 · Post by **jadams501** » Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:01 pm

angelsighs wrote:I'd probably be a bit kinder to Ashcroft with his solo career, I reckon he probably amassed about an albums worth of good material, would probably include:

Song For The Lovers
Leave Me High (gorgeous)
I Get My Beat (I like the lyrics!)
You On My Mind In My Sleep (to be fair, some plain weird lyrics in this one)
On A Beach
Slow Was My Heart (good choice radioshack)
Check The Meaning (NOT the 8 min version though)
Paradise
God In The Numbers
Science Of Silence (great pop song)
Music Is Power
Sweet Brother Malcolm

jadams, I think you are being far too kind to the new album. AWE is still his most solid solo work I think.

Interesting... Sweet Brother Malcolm is usually noted as Ashcroft's worst song, at least until this new one came out. I'd say Ashcroft's best solo stuff is

Song For The Lovers
I Get My Beat
Brave New World
You On My Mind
Money To Burn
Slow Was My Heart
C'Mon People
(Could Be) A City Thing, Country Thing, Blues Thing
Precious Stone
Leave Me High
Make A Wish
Check The Meaning (in its full glory)
Paradise
God In The Numbers
Science of Silence
Man On A Mission
Running Away
Nature Is The Law
The Miracle
Get Up Now
The Journey's Just Begun
Why Not Nothing
Music Is Power
Break The Night With Colour
Words Just Get In The Way
Keys To The World (Acoustic)
World Keeps Turning
75 Degrees
Good Lovin'
Royal Highness
Glory
Life Can Be So Beautiful
Let My Soul Rest

That's 33 songs, enough for 2-3 albums. The new album def has some of his weakest material, but some really good stuff as well. Yes Ashcroft has released some mediocre stuff and yes he was much better with Verve, but he deserves more credit than he usually receives for the solo career.

angelsighs · Post by **angelsighs** » Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:22 pm

TheWarmth wrote:I think the b-sides from the first two singles were great and all of them should have been on the first album

agreed- both Precious Stone and XXYY almost made my list. I think the AWE era was okay all in all, it was overproduced but it does has a big slick charm to it, and I like BJ Coles pedal steel. In hindsight Ashcroft was probably still running on residual talent/inertia from The Verve (if i remember he went into the studio pretty much immeadiately after the split was announced)

I think Sweet Brother Malcolm's deficiencies in songwriting is made up for by THAT VOICE.. i was probably thinking of the live versions to be fair.

There are certainly gems to be found in his solo career, but the thing is the Verve were so damn consistently great that its spottiness is more frustrating in comparison. But I don't know why Ashcroft gets more flak than, say, Ian Brown whose solo career has a similar strike rate.

jadams501 · Post by **jadams501** » Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:19 pm

angelsighs wrote:
TheWarmth wrote:I think the b-sides from the first two singles were great and all of them should have been on the first album
agreed- both Precious Stone and XXYY almost made my list. I think the AWE era was okay all in all, it was overproduced but it does has a big slick charm to it, and I like BJ Coles pedal steel. In hindsight Ashcroft was probably still running on residual talent/inertia from The Verve (if i remember he went into the studio pretty much immeadiately after the split was announced)

I think Sweet Brother Malcolm's deficiencies in songwriting is made up for by THAT VOICE.. i was probably thinking of the live versions to be fair.

There are certainly gems to be found in his solo career, but the thing is the Verve were so damn consistently great that its spottiness is more frustrating in comparison. But I don't know why Ashcroft gets more flak than, say, Ian Brown whose solo career has a similar strike rate.

For me AWE was too overproduced -- at its best it realized his songs more than the production on Human Conditions or Keys To The World, but he was a better singer later on and the slighter production didn't get in the way as often. I.E. New York would have been great if it were recorded like Why Not Nothing, but instead it's fussy and weak. But yes, several of those b-sides were better than plenty of album tracks and I'd bet Ashcroft has Noel Gallagher-esque regrets about wasting such strong material on b-sides early on.

I'm not anti-Sweet Brother Malcolm. As a whole the song doesn't cut it, but I know what you mean with THAT VOICE -- the singing in the prechorus is amazingly good (almost enough to justify the song) and the live versions tend to be better than the studio. And there are more decent songs that Ashcroft has done than the top 33 that I chose -- like Buy It In Bottles or Are You Ready -- but not good enough that they couldn't clearly have been much better with some additional work.

The Ian Brown comparison is a great one. I'm a big fan of his solo career, and Music of The Spheres is a better complete album than anything Ashcroft has managed, but Brown has also released more sheer crap than Ashcroft and The World Is Yours is far worse than any Ashcroft LP. I prefer Ashcroft as an artist to Ian Brown, just my personal taste, but it seems unfair that Brown get so much more cred and respect when his albums (and especially live shows) are at least as inconsistent -- and the solo careers of both mostly pale next to their previous bands.

Already There · Post by **Already There** » Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:19 pm

Don't Take Me In is epic. Much better than the a-side. Buy It In Bottles can be pretty boring.

Post by **BzaInSpace** » Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:23 am

I fuckin' hate the Verve, the most overrated band since The Smiths...or Joy Division, or the fuckin' Stone Roses...

'Bittersweet Symphony'...that one I liked.

Byee.....

Guessed · Post by **Guessed** » Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:52 am

BzaInSpace wrote:I fuckin' hate the Verve, the most overrated band since The Smiths...or Joy Division, or the fuckin' Stone Roses...

Don't get me wrong, I don't think they're shit, although I think they have been well and truly over inflated by this weird pro-manchester journo crap....Tony Wilson...

'Bittersweet Symphony'...that one I liked.

Byee.....

On the sauce, Barry?

I have to agree with your sentiments. Lately I've been thinking about a lot of the music I listened to growing up and have started to see that a lot of it is now dross.
I think they (the Verve) had some moments but they are distinctly average overall.
Sure there was a place for them maybe even up too a few years ago (christ I've even championed fad Richard) but now I'm not at all interested.
I think there are a hundred albums from my youth (now being so ancient!) that I wouldn't touch with a bargepole.
A-ha...now that would make for an interesting top 25!!!
Cue new thread>>>>

B,
S.

TheWarmth · Post by **TheWarmth** » Sun Sep 19, 2010 3:01 pm

The Smiths are not overrated. Their entire catalog is virtually flawless.

Guessed · Post by **Guessed** » Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:44 pm

TheWarmth wrote:The Smiths are not overrated. Their entire catalog is virtually flawless.

Wha-What!!!

I don't buy that, Paul. Now I know next to nothing about The Smiths but surely even your favourite artis is responsible for at least 40% of below good work.

I know mine are. My mainstays; Matthew Dear, Sasu Ripatti & Bowie each have released some stinking tracks/even albums.
I think that's par for the course when you get beyond 4 or 5 studio albums.

Horrorflick · Post by **Horrorflick** » Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:59 pm

TheWarmth wrote:The Smiths are not overrated. Their entire catalog is virtually flawless.

I second that. I'll go one step further and say that Morrissey lost nothing when he parted company with the boys. His solo stuff is fucking brilliant!

Post by **runcible** » Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:11 pm

The Smiths produced 2 totally incredible singles in the form of Panic and How Soon Is Now - I absolutely love those songs. Curiously the rest is all music I really intensely dislike.

Ian · Post by **Ian** » Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:12 pm

runcible wrote:The Smiths produced 2 totally incredible singles in the form of Panic and How Soon Is Now - I absolutely love those songs.

Musically, Panic is essentially Metal Guru. How Soon Is Now is unlike anything else, before or after.

runcible wrote:Curiously the rest is all music I really intensely dislike.

You are quite clearly mad!

When it comes up in conversation, I tend to tell people that Spacemen 3 are my favourite band, but really, it's The Smiths. They quite simply changed my life. I just wish Morrissey would never talk to anyone ever again - that way, he might stop himself tainting his past achievements with offensive nonsense that it's hard to forget about.

Post by **runcible** » Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:50 pm

Ian wrote:
runcible wrote:Curiously the rest is all music I really intensely dislike.
You are quite clearly mad!

Sorry Ian - I really hate almost everything they did and I was very aware of them at the time and turned down endless opportunities to see them live.

As for mad - that's rich coming from a Huggy Bear fan...

jadams501 · Post by **jadams501** » Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:16 pm

Guessed wrote:\I think they (the Verve) had some moments but they are distinctly average overall.
Sure there was a place for them maybe even up too a few years ago (christ I've even championed fad Richard) but now I'm not at all interested.

You are dead to me!

Well, everyone can have their opinion (thankfully, or a mob would come after me for my thoughts on Imagine and Working Class Hero) but average? Verve are my favorite band, but I can see why people might not like them -- certainly I have my gripes about each of their studio albums. But calling them AVERAGE I don't understand.

I also see why people may not like Spacemen 3 or Spiritualized (my second favorite), but I wouldn't call them average either.

Already There · Post by **Already There** » Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:34 pm

Guessed wrote: I think they (the Verve) had some moments but they are distinctly average overall.
Sure there was a place for them maybe even up too a few years ago (christ I've even championed fad Richard) but now I'm not at all interested.

I must disagree with you there. I don't think they are distinctly average. There's hardly a band I know that are less average. Nick McCabe might be the only guitarist out there who really gets me. Jack White? Thanks a lot, I want something innovative. And you can't say Nick was not innovative. He can't play guitar like Jimmy Page, but technique and how many fingers you can use simultaneously is not what music is about. Or should be. Of course, one can lose interest after a while, but I think it's too far-fetched to say it was just because you've been young and nowadays this music doesn't interest you at all. A band, not as innovative as The Verve, but definitely the most important band in my life must be Oasis. Spiritualized won't ever top that, however more innovative and distinct they are.

I also like The Smiths.

Of course all the bands I mentioned are terribly overrated, but at the same time so underrated because a lot of people are just out there looking for the commercial popularity a band has. And how many people like a band. I'm not saying popularity doesn't say much about the quality of a band, but in many cases I am afraid it just means a band sells itself well. It's like writers. Surely, Stephenie Meyer is successful, but...

Ian wrote: You are quite clearly mad!

When it comes up in conversation, I tend to tell people that Spacemen 3 are my favourite band, but really, it's The Smiths. They quite simply changed my life. I just wish Morrissey would never talk to anyone ever again - that way, he might stop himself tainting his past achievements with offensive nonsense that it's hard to forget about.

The Smiths changed my life, too. But in a more subtle way than Oasis or The Verve did. Johnny Marr must be one of the best and most innovative guitarists I've ever heard. The Smiths are all about their distinctive sound. Brilliant debut, The Headmaster Ritual still shocks me everytime I listen to it, it just blows my mind. How Soon Is Now is obviously another one of their best songs and one of my favourites, That Joke Isn't Funny Anymore is one of the saddest songs I have ever heard, it always almost makes me want to cry. The Boy With The Thorn In His Side, brilliant stuff. And Stop Me is what Manchester in the 80's was about. I think they'd better not reunite. I think they have done everything that's possible, in a very good way. But the Spacemen, I fear, stopped before they could finish properly. I mean, Playing With Fire was so promising, as if showing there was even more to come, but then... Recurring is like the product of a band that never got where it was headed. It stopped before it even began.

I think Spacemen 3 are the band for me that shows me the best what love for music and collaborating are all about. There are very few good examples in literature for successful collaborations, too. It's just such a shame to see how this great songwriting partnership dissolved.

Post by **runcible** » Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:54 pm

We're into subjective territory here. Many hate Spacemen 3. Many hate Verve. People hate Led Zeppelin, The Beatles, Nirvana, The Stones, Hendrix, Pink Floyd, Grateful Dead... Yet these are all bands I absolutely love, and the last 7 are genuinely massive-selling artists that are tagged as being 'great'.

The Smiths were a massively important band and I fully understand the impact they made and why they are so important. I just don't like the music. I don't think it's rubbish, I just don't want to listen to it.

Guessed · Post by **Guessed** » Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:58 pm

jadams501 wrote:
Guessed wrote:\I think they (the Verve) had some moments but they are distinctly average overall.
Sure there was a place for them maybe even up too a few years ago (christ I've even championed fad Richard) but now I'm not at all interested.
You are dead to me!

Well, everyone can have their opinion (thankfully, or a mob would come after me for my thoughts on Imagine and Working Class Hero) but average? Verve are my favorite band, but I can see why people might not like them -- certainly I have my gripes about each of their studio albums. But calling them AVERAGE I don't understand.

I also see why people may not like Spacemen 3 or Spiritualized (my second favorite), but I wouldn't call them average either.

That's allright.

Seriously though - the emotion I used to feel/channel when I listened to The Verve (I can't be doing with the dropping of the "The") are no longer prevalent when I listen to them now.
Take "The Rolling People"; that uncharted drive, that ground-shattering rumble to too tooo....where exactly? Maybe it's because I'm older, wiser or even less wiser that the warp-speed momentum to reach something and I dunno what - "the feeling" - no longer panders to my sense of need.
So the emotive relationship is soured; not by them but by me, the intaker.
The music itself, yeah ok...a lot of it not particularly groundbreaking...never thought McCabe was an extrordianry guitarist; he played with flashes/washes of sound to spur on the emotion of words and feelings. The baladeering was ok to begin with but the excessive amounts on ANS and UH were really the begining of the end.
The lyrics...the lyrics, yeah ok but they hit the same brick-wall with as Ashcroft does when he gets to the end of his walk in the BS video. Actually to me life aint a bittersweet symphony - it can be - but it is a great adventure.
I dunno; I think we now live in a world where if something is decent WE LOVE IT (5 stars) and if something is not that decent WE HATE IT (1 star).
I'm sorry to be dismissive but The Verve were a band in the 90's...we're in the second decade of the 21st century now and overtime (allbeit a decent innings) they have paled with me.
However with the exception of Spiritualized there is very little guitar based music i listen too.
I listened to Slowdive a lot too and I'm ecstatic they actually shook the apple tree and came out with Pygmalion.
I think even Primal Scream another band I have difficulties with could be regarded with a tad more respect than The Verve because they pushed on.
The Verve seemed to push into mediocrity - thats where that great bass locomotive was heading.
I used too love The Verve but now, you know what..they're ok.

Do you get a bit of this; I mean you could put the Scream, Slowdive, The Verve, Ride, Spiritualized et al together I guess. All bands from the early 90's all having success (of sorts) at a similar time and all travelling in different directions.
And if I had a choice too listen to any two albums from those 5 I'd pitch for GOBDGU and probably A&E and it's been years (formerly) months (latterly) when I actually have.

B,
S.

Ian · Post by **Ian** » Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:00 pm

runcible wrote:As for mad - that's rich coming from a Huggy Bear fan...

February 14, 1993, upstairs at the Richmond (RIP), Brighton - still the most confrontational and exciting gig I've ever been to...

Guessed · Post by **Guessed** » Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:15 pm

Already There wrote:
Guessed wrote: I think they (the Verve) had some moments but they are distinctly average overall.
Sure there was a place for them maybe even up too a few years ago (christ I've even championed fad Richard) but now I'm not at all interested.
Of course, one can lose interest after a while, but I think it's too far-fetched to say it was just because you've been young and nowadays this music doesn't interest you at all. A band, not as innovative as The Verve, but definitely the most important band in my life must be Oasis. Spiritualized won't ever top that, however more innovative and distinct they are.

I've removed the McCabe bit for reasons of brevity.

Why does the above mean I can't say they are average?
I'd like to think my sense of taste and appreciation for sound gets enriched as I mature.
The Verve sound is very basic, no?
Essentially a 4-piece; guitar, bass, drums & vocals. Essentially doing nothing more than 2 verses and a chorus.
Essentially constructing a simple pop song. Essentially disposable.
Now I'm not going to have a debate about how groundbreaking pop music can be but by it's very structure it has a "slow-release" form of breaking new ground.

I'm (or we) are the crucial interface in any form of art meaning anything. I don't require nostalgia to dilute my curious mind.
Trust me; i'd love them to actually have the verve to grab me.

Good on you for championing Oasis.

Sorry if my posts are shards but I'm on the merlot trying to mix Bob Sinclair with Ike Yard. Essentially like trying to mix bricks with butter.

B,
S.

spunder · Post by **spunder** » Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:10 pm

Essentially a 4-piece; guitar, bass, drums & vocals. Essentially doing nothing more than 2 verses and a chorus.
Essentially constructing a simple pop song. Essentially disposable.

you are dismissing a lot of INCREDIBLE music to the sin bin with this nonce - sense. Gravity Grave - pop music?

burningwheel · Post by **burningwheel** » Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:14 pm

Ian wrote:
runcible wrote:As for mad - that's rich coming from a Huggy Bear fan...
February 14, 1993, upstairs at the Richmond (RIP), Brighton - still the most confrontational and exciting gig I've ever been to...

i felt like i was floating when i saw them on the ASIH tour, concert was so powerful, not in a loud way per se... indescribable..amazing!

Ian · Post by **Ian** » Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:17 pm

burningwheel wrote:
Ian wrote:
runcible wrote:As for mad - that's rich coming from a Huggy Bear fan...
February 14, 1993, upstairs at the Richmond (RIP), Brighton - still the most confrontational and exciting gig I've ever been to...
i felt like i was floating when i saw them on the ASIH tour, concert was so powerful, not in a loud way per se... indescribable..amazing!

I'm afraid to have to tell you that I was referring to a Huggy Bear gig.

Post by **runcible** » Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:28 pm

Ian wrote: I'm afraid to have to tell you that I was referring to a Huggy Bear gig.

spunder · Post by **spunder** » Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:31 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz9a8yBG ... re=channel

they were the coolest.rock.band.ever.

Minky · Post by **Minky** » Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:24 pm

They were a great band back then. My wife just informed me she saw The Verve at the Astoria (Smashing Pumpkins & Catherine Wheel), Powerhouse, and Town & Country (w/Spiritualized) in 1992. I passed on the '95 Tour (Huge Regret) but we saw them in '97 at the 9:30 Club, Kate was there.

Already There · Post by **Already There** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:43 am

Guessed wrote: The lyrics...the lyrics, yeah ok but they hit the same brick-wall with as Ashcroft does when he gets to the end of his walk in the BS video. Actually to me life aint a bittersweet symphony - it can be - but it is a great adventure.

It's about the contradictory quality of life, innit?

Guessed wrote: The Verve seemed to push into mediocrity - thats where that great bass locomotive was heading.

This, sadly, is true. I think some of the band members lost a bit of interest around UH, it's half Richard Ashcroft anyway.

Guessed wrote: Do you get a bit of this; I mean you could put the Scream, Slowdive, The Verve, Ride, Spiritualized et al together I guess. All bands from the early 90's all having success (of sorts) at a similar time and all travelling in different directions.
And if I had a choice too listen to any two albums from those 5 I'd pitch for GOBDGU and probably A&E and it's been years (formerly) months (latterly) when I actually have.

I see what you mean. The Charlatans, like Primal Scream, pushed on, too. Both were good live as well. I think this gives them some more credibility. I'd listen to Going Blank Again and Lazer Guided Melodies. I listened to A Storm In Heaven again yesterday. It still surprises me.

spunder wrote:Essentially a 4-piece; guitar, bass, drums & vocals. Essentially doing nothing more than 2 verses and a chorus.
Essentially constructing a simple pop song. Essentially disposable.

you are dismissing a lot of INCREDIBLE music to the sin bin with this nonce - sense. Gravity Grave - pop music?

Oh, I LOVE Gravity Grave. It took me so long to notice how great that song is. It's become one of my top 10 if not top 5 Verve songs. So epic.

Minky wrote:They were a great band back then. My wife just informed me she saw The Verve at the Astoria (Smashing Pumpkins & Catherine Wheel), Powerhouse, and Town & Country (w/Spiritualized) in 1992. I passed on the '95 Tour (Huge Regret) but we saw them in '97 at the 9:30 Club, Kate was there.

I would give anything to have been at a Spiritualized gig in the first half of the 90s. 1997 might be best because it's got all the best music they have ever made.

Post by **BzaInSpace** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:53 am

BzaInSpace wrote:On the sauce, Barry?

Completely ripped, thanks Stu! But it's good every now and again to make some virual sacrifice - in this case brain cells and time - in exchange for new powers. Or something.

BzaInSpace wrote:I fuckin' hate the Verve, the most overrated band since The Smiths...or Joy Division, or the fuckin' Stone Roses...
'Bittersweet Symphony'...that one I liked.
Byee.....

An annoyingly soundbite-esque post from me there, probably more for antagonism than anything else. I have removed reference to the deceased Godfather of Overhyped Mancunian Rock as...well, he can't answer back, can he?

I probably don't actually "hate" "the" Verve, but I certainly find their music insufferably dull. Urban Hymns - the most boring music to come out of 1997. Given that you had stuff that year like Goldie's(Rage

) Saturnz Return and even OK Computer that's quite a feat.
The first two albums have their moments, but from A Northern Soul onwards soon as the strings come on and another wretched ballad starts I need to listen to something else. As Runcible point out though - this is completely subjective and I appreciate there is a lot of love for the Ashcroft experience so...opinions, innit.

TheWarmth wrote:The Smiths are not overrated. Their entire catalog is virtually flawless.

Now, I definitely respectfully disagree... in the strongest possible terms. I must admit to enjoying the music of the Smiths at around 16-17, one of the first singles I ever bought was a cassette re-release of 'How Soon Is Now' b/w 'Hand In Glove'.

I do find however as time moves on their catalogue becomes ever less-important. 'How Soon Is Now',yes it sounds amazing (apart from the horrible 'big' drum production that marred - unintended pun - most of their recordings) but really, I don't get how anyone can really enjoy the misery.# I kinda want to tell the protagonist - just Morrissey of course - to get a grip.

(#See Dylan's take on those that enjoy Blood On The Tracks...)

The first album - an poorly produced, unlistenable shambles. The Queen Is Dead is way overrated, possibly not as much as it was however. In fact, the only album that actually works all the way through is Srangeways Here We Come - it definitely has the best sequence of songs IMO.

They may be better served by one of the many singles compilations, with the odd album tracks thats up there with their best.

As Ian hints at though, their music becomes almost tarnished due to the ever more reactionary view points spouted by the Smiths' former singer, who is now a sad and embittered old fool, trading on past glories with increasingly dull re-hashes of his back catalogue in a frighteningly safe, watered down rockabilly format.

The odd moment aside, his solo-career is just garbage.

His recent views in the Chinese - the entire race! - enraged me, and rather than believing he was striving to be controversial or daring I just think he's an ageing, racist arsehole.

His uber-fans won't have a bad word said about him right enough. I can actually forsee Mozza "going upriver and qutting the whole damn program" at some point, surrounded by his hardcore fan-base as a private army, indulging Moz with anything he wishes and anything he wishes to say with braying sycophantic laughter...
He can fuck off.

Shaun · Post by **Shaun** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:32 pm

Guessed wrote: Lately I've been thinking about a lot of the music I listened to growing up and have started to see that a lot of it is now dross.
I think there are a hundred albums from my youth (now being so ancient!) that I wouldn't touch with a bargepole.

A similar thing going on down here too.

Matt Johnson wrote:It's funny how, as we grow old,
we cling to the past as we cling to the air
and feel nostalgia for things that were, maybe never there.

I always feel the sentiment behind those lyrics. Does it help you move on? Probably not. I see a lot of it on here, few exceptions. It's like a middle aged gentlemans club offering a hand.

BzaOnSpaceDust wrote:Urban Hymns[/i] - the most boring music to come out of 1997. Given that you had stuff that year like Goldie's(Rage ) Saturnz Return and even OK Computer that's quite a feat.
entire catalog is virtually flawless.

Fair enough on the first three but while a lot of Ok Computer might conjure up images of Bob Geldof shaving off his eyebrows, I quite enjoy listening to it (says a lot about myself then.) Karma Police, great video one thought at the time but what's it got to do with Hitlers hair-do!!! Hmmm.

Post by **BzaInSpace** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:38 pm

Shaun wrote:
BzaOnSpaceDust wrote:Urban Hymns[/i] - the most boring music to come out of 1997. Given that you had stuff that year like Goldie's(Rage ) Saturnz Return and even OK Computer that's quite a feat.
entire catalog is virtually flawless.
Fair enough on the first three but while a lot of Ok Computer might conjure up images of Bob Geldof shaving off his eyebrows, I quite enjoy listening to it (says a lot about myself then.) Karma Police, great video one thought at the time but what's it got to do with Hitlers hair-do!!! Hmmm.

Ahh....I knew you'd pick up on that mention of OK Computer. Ach, I'll tell you what Shaun, it's nowhere near as good as In Rainbows. That album is almost - but not quite - worth the previous decades worth of hype about that band...

Bog Geldof shaving his eyebrows??!! Now that's spacedust! I'm willing to bet that nobody has ever used those words in conjuction with that album - or indeed that band before...or indeed anything!

I like it...

niamhm · Post by **niamhm** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:45 pm

I`m of a mind that The Smiths produced a run of singles and albums ,of such quality and volume in a short period, 4 yrs that you`d have to go back to The Beatles to find their equal ...probably ,though I don`t listen to them much these days ,this thread has got me digging some out and loading it onto the ipod

I don't get how anyone can really enjoy the misery.# I kinda want to tell the protagonist - just Morrissey of course - to get a grip.

you jest surely? Morriseys lyrics are unremittingly hilarious ,ball achingly so in some cases.

I`ll conceed they sort of ran out of steam towards the end, Twinkle covers ,but fuckit its understandable after the run they had

The first album - an poorly produced, unlistenable shambles.

steady on ,I think I might have been responsible for "an poorly produced ,unlistenable shambles " or two in the past and this just doesn`t fit the bill ,production maybe not to everyone`s taste but its still my fav. set of Smiths tracks,

still its good to know I`m not the only one who posts bladdered.

Shaun · Post by **Shaun** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:06 pm

BzaInSpace wrote:
Ahh....I knew you'd pick up on that mention of OK Computer. Ach, I'll tell you what Shaun, it's nowhere near as good as In Rainbows. That album is almost - but not quite - worth the previous decades worth of hype about that

And I suspected you knew I would pick up on that.

I was looking back to see if you were looking back to see me looking back at you.

And I've still not listened to In Rainbows.

TheWarmth · Post by **TheWarmth** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:43 pm

Now, I definitely respectfully disagree... in the strongest possible terms. I must admit to enjoying the music of the Smiths at around 16-17, one of the first singles I ever bought was a cassette re-release of 'How Soon Is Now' b/w 'Hand In Glove'.

I do find however as time moves on their catalogue becomes ever less-important. 'How Soon Is Now',yes it sounds amazing (apart from the horrible 'big' drum production that marred - unintended pun - most of their recordings) but really, I don't get how anyone can really enjoy the misery.# I kinda want to tell the protagonist - just Morrissey of course - to get a grip.

Why do most people ignore the fact that Morrissey is one of the funniest men in music. Yes, the sad songs can be quite heavy, but there are an equal number of Smiths and Morrissey songs that are light-hearted and humorous. We're talking about the guy behind "Frankly, Mr. Shankley" and "Vicar In A Tutu." Moreover, songs like "Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now" are not meant to be taken literally by any stretch of the imagination.

On the other hand, I find the very sad songs incredibly moving. The power of "Asleep" and "This Night Has Opened My Eyes," to name two, is undeniable and the songwriting is untouchable. How anyone could listen to these as a teenager and somehow no longer be moved by them in their twenties, thirties, forties, etc. is beyond me. Ashcroft, for example, will never come close and this is coming from a big fan of The Verve.

Guessed · Post by **Guessed** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:59 pm

spunder wrote:Essentially a 4-piece; guitar, bass, drums & vocals. Essentially doing nothing more than 2 verses and a chorus.
Essentially constructing a simple pop song. Essentially disposable.

you are dismissing a lot of INCREDIBLE music to the sin bin with this nonce - sense. Gravity Grave - pop music?

Good. I'm glad you chose Gravity Grave. A track that should only be heard live and the studio version dismissed.
Live and up close it is intense, fascinating, raucous.
However take a step away from ASIH which is an album that has never been highly regarded by myself and snuggle up next too ANS and UH. Pop songs, surely?
And anyway, why is referring to these as pop songs being dismissive...is it because I disagree with your own personal tastes.
Spellcheck your own nonsense.

AlreadyThere wrote:It's about the contradictory quality of life, innit?

Might well be but then I already know life has contradictory qualities...I don't particularly wish to wallow in them...I'd rather escape from them with a smile and a dance.

I refer both of you too Bob Sinclar - I Feel For You. I know that it won't be to your tastes but there is more in that slab of wax than in any The Verve release and on the surface it has been regarded as completely disposable. Fine by me. Let The Verve'rs have there tepid dirge and let me have my sweet sunshine.

Again, The Verve are ok.

Already There · Post by **Already There** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:51 am

BzaInSpace wrote: I probably don't actually "hate" "the" Verve, but I certainly find their music insufferably dull. Urban Hymns - the most boring music to come out of 1997. Given that you had stuff that year like Goldie's(Rage ) Saturnz Return and even OK Computer that's quite a feat.
The first two albums have their moments, but from A Northern Soul onwards soon as the strings come on and another wretched ballad starts I need to listen to something else. As Runcible point out though - this is completely subjective and I appreciate there is a lot of love for the Ashcroft experience so...opinions, innit.

I'm not a great fan of the ballads you are talking about either. As well as a third of Urban Hymns. Or half of it, depends on my mood. Sometimes I can't listen to Weeping Willow. I avoid some songs on Urban Hymns because I find them just too unbearable, even worse than most of Richard's solo stuff, to be honest. And yes, of course all of this is completely subjectuve. I wil always be torn between hating and loving Urban Hymns. I think Forth even topped it though. Sadly. I think it's even worse than Urban Hymns.

BzaInSpace wrote: Now, I definitely respectfully disagree... in the strongest possible terms. I must admit to enjoying the music of the Smiths at around 16-17, one of the first singles I ever bought was a cassette re-release of 'How Soon Is Now' b/w 'Hand In Glove'.

I can see what you are talking about. I don't like everything they have ever done myself. I quite like the drums on How Soon Is Now though. And on a lot of their other songs. What really gets me about them is mostly the guitar, really, even though that might sound pretentious. I'm not in the fan community who obsess over every word that Morrissey has ever uttered. I can't even say that his lyrics mean a lot to me, but part of them. But that's not why I like them anyway. Their sound is just... pretty interesting. There's hardly a band like that nowadays, at least not many I can find appealing.

BzaInSpace wrote: His recent views in the Chinese - the entire race! - enraged me, and rather than believing he was striving to be controversial or daring I just think he's an ageing, racist arsehole.

I talked about this with a friend a couple of days ago. That's not the first time he said something like that though. At the same time, he is not exactly the guy to beat you up on the street. I find it hard to tag him as completely racist. It doesn't really make sense to me. I can't deny though that part of my brain keeps shouting "Why did he say that?" It's easier if the person you are talking about is this completely flat and stupid asshole.

Shaun wrote:
Matt Johnson wrote:It's funny how, as we grow old,
we cling to the past as we cling to the air
and feel nostalgia for things that were, maybe never there.
I always feel the sentiment behind those lyrics. Does it help you move on? Probably not. I see a lot of it on here, few exceptions. It's like a middle aged gentlemans club offering a hand.

I quite like those lines. They are true in a way. Of course not everything we remember is only in our head, but it's this feeling of clinging to the past that is completely out of proportion if you're really nostalgic.

But I think it's wrong to apply that to everything. Especially when it comes to possible band reunions.

Shaun wrote:
BzaOnSpaceDust wrote:Urban Hymns[/i] - the most boring music to come out of 1997. Given that you had stuff that year like Goldie's(Rage ) Saturnz Return and even OK Computer that's quite a feat.
entire catalog is virtually flawless.
Fair enough on the first three but while a lot of Ok Computer might conjure up images of Bob Geldof shaving off his eyebrows, I quite enjoy listening to it (says a lot about myself then.) Karma Police, great video one thought at the time but what's it got to do with Hitlers hair-do!!! Hmmm.

It used to be my favourite Radiohead album. But it's not as good as some people make it look. Often enough, I'd rather listen to Amnesiac or Hail To The Thief. Paranoid Android is not their best song, but it depends on my mood. I like to listen to it sometimes. Well, the Hitler hairdo line I believe is to be taken as a representation of a certain kind of person. Personally, I prefer Climbing Up The Walls and Lucky off the album. And Karma Police. It reminds me of one night when I couldn't fall asleep. Just like LAGWAFIS is kind of my insomnia album.

BzaInSpace wrote: Ahh....I knew you'd pick up on that mention of OK Computer. Ach, I'll tell you what Shaun, it's nowhere near as good as In Rainbows. That album is almost - but not quite - worth the previous decades worth of hype about that band...

Bog Geldof shaving his eyebrows??!! Now that's spacedust! I'm willing to bet that nobody has ever used those words in conjuction with that album - or indeed that band before...or indeed anything!

I like it...

Ah, God, no. In Rainbows is terrible. It's like listening to Arcade Fire or any other elitist indie band. Insert what you like. I think it's just so pretentious. It's like elevator music. The album got hyped. Because it was released on the internet? There were albums before that. There's just so many people decorating their musical taste with Radiohead. But they don't really like the music, do they? This always reminds me of Kant or just the general concept of aesthetics. That's not why you like things, even though some of it has a point.

angelsighs · Post by **angelsighs** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:38 pm

Very interesting to hear the opinions on the Smiths here... I went through a similar thing.. I had a very intensive and very deep phase of fandom when I was around 17 or so.. now I don't find myself reaching for the albums very often. when I do I really enjoy them though. they had the knack of writing quite catchy and commercial songs which still didn't resort to big booming choruses or anything and were often quite weird structurally.

they were an important phase in my musical listening, but it's still hard to shake the fact that is was a phase. after a time I hankered for something a little more trippy or visceral. It's pertinent that people are citing How Soon Is Now as a fave here as it's the nearest they got to psychedelia.

I don't like the first album at all either, horrible flat production and many of the songs are weak too. I think Meat Is Murder is great (apart from the awful title track) and the Queen Is Dead is cracking too.

I don't think Morrissey is a racist per se, but he does seem xenophobic and quite small minded in musical and other matters. Apart from a few flashes of brilliance his solo career is hampered by mediocre backing musicians and him ploughing the same furrow lyrically (and melodically- a lot of his melodies are borderline identical).

Already There · Post by **Already There** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:50 pm

angelsighs wrote: I don't think Morrissey is a racist per se, but he does seem xenophobic and quite small minded in musical and other matters. Apart from a few flashes of brilliance his solo career is hampered by mediocre backing musicians and him ploughing the same furrow lyrically (and melodically- a lot of his melodies are borderline identical).

I know what you mean. It's sad to admit, but you have a point there.

But The Smiths... I don't like to think of their songs as commercial. Of course, a lot of their songs are aimed at a wide audience. But they seem very personal, too. Hand In Glove and This Charming Man are just so good. The Marr guitar just got me trapped. I think it has gotten better now, but I still think it's some of the best and genuine guitar playing I've ever heard. A lot of people will slag me off for this, but in many cases Jason's guitar style just seems a bit less personal to me. Of course you cannot compare him to Johnny Marr, he also writes the lyrics and he's got a great vision of the music. But Johnny Marr starts to play and I want to hear him play forever. I think only Nick McCabe can top that for me. Of course, not everything Marr has produced IN THE SMITHS is all good, but a lot of it is. Spiritualized... Almost everything on Lazer Guided Melodies, basically all of Pure Phase and some songs on LAGWAFIS. That might be it. Yeah... And Sitting On Fire. Wow, that might be the only acoustic song in my list. ^^ Shame on me. Take Led Zeppelin... My favourite song of theirs is, fascinatingly, acoustic. Completely acoustic. And it took me a while to figure that out. A lot of their acoustic songs are better than part of their electric songs. Anyway... The Smiths for me are about the guitar really. It's the dominant thing there. Spiritualized are more of a mix of many different instruments, that gives Jason a lot of credibility. I like both a lot.

angelsighs · Post by **angelsighs** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:58 pm

They certainly were commercial in the fact that the songs were usually quite short and catchy, and often instantly memorable. nothing wrong with that. and they did it quite distinctively (very different from say Oasis, who were also commercial but in a very different and less subtle way)

Johnny Marr is a great guitarist, (and I totally respect the way even he was getting bored near the end with the restrictions of the Smiths sound.. not everything he has done since has been particularly great, but at least he has stretched his wings a bit). also thought a lot of the basslines were often very inventive. the drums do leave a lot to be desired though.

Already There · Post by **Already There** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:34 pm

angelsighs wrote: Johnny Marr is a great guitarist, (and I totally respect the way even he was getting bored near the end with the restrictions of the Smiths sound.. not everything he has done since has been particularly great, but at least he has stretched his wings a bit). also thought a lot of the basslines were often very inventive. the drums do leave a lot to be desired though.

I like that the drums were so basic. That reminds me of what Sonic Boom once said about the "For All The Fucked Up Children...". Because he said that he didn't particularly liked the drums, except for TV Catastrophe. But I love the drums on "Fixin' To Die". They just fit the song so well. Just as well as the drums fit well there, I find it similar with The Smiths. They are not very complex or innovative, but could you imagine that in The Smiths?

Post by **spzretent** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:56 pm

As I have stated before, I think The Smiths were one of the all time underrated live bands. I never quite understood the fandom that went with them but that may have been a more English thing(with a few select anglophiles over here).
The notion that Morrissey didn't miss a beat after going solo is preposterous imho. I saw The Smiths 4 times and Morrissey solo 3 times. The only thing that beefed up his sound was hiring a rockabilly backing band.
Verve on the other hand simply played some of the best live shows I have ever seen including the the best show. Reptile House Grand Rapids Michigan on Halloween 1993. I am pretty sure I needed to be scraped of the ceiling after that show. No one could touch them live except for Spiritualized. Nick McCabe was able to get the effect of all engulfing lava coming from the stage still shocks me. Like getting totally sucked in to this glorious sonic maelstrom.
As for both bands records? I couldn't live w/o the first 2 Verve records(and Voyager 1). The Smiths? Gimme Meat Is Murder, Queen Is Dead and Strangeways and i'm good.

jadams501 · Post by **jadams501** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:05 pm

Guessed wrote: I'd like to think my sense of taste and appreciation for sound gets enriched as I mature.
The Verve sound is very basic, no?
Essentially a 4-piece; guitar, bass, drums & vocals. Essentially doing nothing more than 2 verses and a chorus.
Essentially constructing a simple pop song. Essentially disposable.
Now I'm not going to have a debate about how groundbreaking pop music can be but by it's very structure it has a "slow-release" form of breaking new ground.

I'm (or we) are the crucial interface in any form of art meaning anything. I don't require nostalgia to dilute my curious mind.
Trust me; i'd love them to actually have the verve to grab me.

Personal taste is personal taste and all that, but I think it's inaccurate to boil down the Verve to such a mundane description. Ashcroft in his prime was an uncommonly expressive singer/frontman, Si Jones & Pete Salisbury were an extraordinarily elastic/nimble/groovy rhythm section, and of course Nick McCabe coaxed extraordinary waves of oceanic cosmic noise from the guitar. All in all they combined some of the best sonic achievements of shoegaze with funk and the melody that many of those bands often lacked. I'm all for verse-chorus-verse -- criticizing that to me is like criticizing Bach for sticking to the liturgy in the St. Matthew Passion and certainly would impact Spaceman as well -- but Verve also had plenty of songs (Shes' A Superstar, Feel, Gravity Grave, Drive You Home, So It Goes, etc.) that weren't tied to traditional pop structure. And the live shows could be pretty overpowering.

Musical taste is a very personal thing, and as I said I can see how somebody might find Verve meandering or self-indulgent or something like that, but I'm surprised that such a sentiment would come from a fan of J Spaceman! In my mind, for all the critical plaudits Verve and Spiritualized have received, they are still underrated compared to groups like Radiohead (who welded elements of V/Sp to more conventional material, imho) or Pavement.

Shaun · Post by **Shaun** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:00 pm

Already There wrote:
Shaun wrote:
Matt Johnson wrote:It's funny how, as we grow old,
we cling to the past as we cling to the air
and feel nostalgia for things that were, maybe never there.
I always feel the sentiment behind those lyrics. Does it help you move on? Probably not. I see a lot of it on here, few exceptions. It's like a middle aged gentlemans club offering a hand.
I quite like those lines. They are true in a way. Of course not everything we remember is only in our head, but it's this feeling of clinging to the past that is completely out of proportion if you're really nostalgic

There's a thought I've held for years and that is people often have an album they keep going back to. Not to help them cling to the past so much, but to evoke something deep rooted to realise where you once were and where you are now. To reminisce isn't actually that nostalgic yearning. Of course you're right, we don't just keep memories in our head

Already There wrote:But I think it's wrong to apply that to everything. Especially when it comes to possible band reunions.

No, I'm sure it can be applied to everything just not everything for everyone. It's an individualistic thing. The basic principle behind that theory might just be a general one.

I don't think there is a band reunion out there that would interest me. Led Zep already happened and I missed out then so not interested now. Can't think of anymore.

Already There wrote:
Shaun wrote: Police, great video one thought at the time but what's it got to do with Hitlers hair-do!!! Hmmm.
Â Well, the Hitler hairdo line I believe is to be taken as a representation of a certain kind of person.

As in a specific kind of person in everyday life or a kind of person who, individually, you've come across in your own life and decided to attach that stigma to?Â

I was thinking more of the connection to that particular line and a middle aged guy running along a dark country lane being followed by a car. I just can't find a reasonable narrative to bridge the gap. But I do like the video. The expression on Thom's face at 1:29 is great. However, it is the video for Street Spirit that is their finest and also the best music video of the 90's.Â

p/s...quoting and counter quoting on an iPhone is a nightmare.

Already There · Post by **Already There** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:45 pm

Shaun wrote: p/s...quoting and counter quoting on an iPhone is a nightmare.

That sounds very difficult indeed. ^^

Mh, my favourite Radiohead video would be... I don't really have one. I think Street Spirit is cool and arty. I like Anyone Can Play Guitar because it is just completely weird and absurd. As well as Pop Is Dead. Their best video though might be There There. Radiohead don't have many videos that I really love though. But The Verve... I love almost all of their videos. Blue, Slide Away, All In The Mind and Lucky Man. And Bittersweet Symphony obviously. The video for All In The Mind is very simple, but so good.

OK, the video for Karma Police is a bit weird and doesn't have much to do with the lyrics of the song. ^^

jadams501 · Post by **jadams501** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:03 am

Already There wrote:Mh, my favourite Radiohead video would be... I don't really have one. I think Street Spirit is cool and arty. I like Anyone Can Play Guitar because it is just completely weird and absurd. As well as Pop Is Dead. Their best video though might be There There. Radiohead don't have many videos that I really love though. But The Verve... I love almost all of their videos. Blue, Slide Away, All In The Mind and Lucky Man. And Bittersweet Symphony obviously. The video for All In The Mind is very simple, but so good.

I'm as die-hard a Verve fan as anybody but I gotta say that a lot of their early videos are real stinkers. It's sort of disturbing watching all of the blank drugged-out stares and especially the emaciated androgynous insectoid creature that was young Richard Ashcroft. But This Is Music, Lucky Man, and BSS are great, great videos.

Some of Ashcroft's solo videos are quite good... Music Is Power is an amusing update of BSS in which he's at last learned to apologize for bumping into people, Break The Night With Colour is striking in its own way, and Science of Silence is a really well-done paean to domestic bliss.

Already There · Post by **Already There** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:09 am

jadams501 wrote: I'm as die-hard a Verve fan as anybody but I gotta say that a lot of their early videos are real stinkers. It's sort of disturbing watching all of the blank drugged-out stares and especially the emaciated androgynous insectoid creature that was young Richard Ashcroft. But This Is Music, Lucky Man, and BSS are great, great videos.

Some of Ashcroft's solo videos are quite good... Music Is Power is an amusing update of BSS in which he's at last learned to apologize for bumping into people, Break The Night With Colour is striking in its own way, and Science of Silence is a really well-done paean to domestic bliss.

I think we won't agree here. ^^ I just think that Richard looked much much better when he was in his early twenties. Much better than during Urban Hymns and definitely better than now. Yes, Music Power is an amusing "update". ^^ I always thought of it that way, too. Nah, I don't like This Is Music. It's a bit clichÃ©. And I always thought the song would need a much better video. It's just such a brilliant song. Nah, I think I at least love All In The Mind and Gravity Grave. The She's A Superstar video is a bit weird, yeah. Blue might be my favourite video, followed by either BSS or Slide Away. I love how Slide Away starts. And I love all of Blue. It works so well with the song. And on itself.

Guessed · Post by **Guessed** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:51 am

I was gonna reply to a post in this thread but i've lost my lustre and it's incredibly tiring.
The Verve are ok but I'd rather listen to Yellow Swans or something, now.

I think that's the original point I was trying to make; that through time and with "understanding" I no longer require the more traditional "music to relate too" but rather I seek "music to escape too".
In all honesty there is nothing a pop/rock/indie-shoegaze-funk band can tell me about life that I haven't experienced myself/done already.
I don't need to listen so much now; for me music is about emotives more than affinity.
I dunno - it's very hard to explain a relationship with sound.

B,
S.

Ian · Post by **Ian** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:15 am

I'm sure we've done this before, but...

The Bitter Sweet Symphony video is awful. Are we supposed to be cheering on Richard as he pushes all of those people out of the way? If it's supposed to indicate doing your own thing, not letting anyone tell you what to do, then there are much better ways of showing this than pushing over regular people and walking over their cars. He comes across as an absolute cunt.

Shinesalight · Post by **Shinesalight** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:54 am

Ian wrote:
runcible wrote:As for mad - that's rich coming from a Huggy Bear fan...
February 14, 1993, upstairs at the Richmond (RIP), Brighton - still the most confrontational and exciting gig I've ever been to...

Oh dear Ian, Huggy Bear!

I actually saw the Verve play at the Richmond just after the release of the All In The Mind single. There was a lot of "mad" Richard antics then, crouching atop speaker stacks and the like. Fucking good gig though and a brilliant venue thats sadly no more.

Post by **BzaInSpace** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:25 pm

Why do most people ignore the fact that Morrissey is one of the funniest men in music. Yes, the sad songs can be quite heavy, but there are an equal number of Smiths and Morrissey songs that are light-hearted and humorous. We're talking about the guy behind "Frankly, Mr. Shankley" and "Vicar In A Tutu." Moreover, songs like "Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now" are not meant to be taken literally by any stretch of the imagination.

On the other hand, I find the very sad songs incredibly moving. The power of "Asleep" and "This Night Has Opened My Eyes," to name two, is undeniable and the songwriting is untouchable. How anyone could listen to these as a teenager and somehow no longer be moved by them in their twenties, thirties, forties, etc. is beyond me...

Well, you move on... I can't really put it any simpler than that - Angelsighs said it best above I think.

I don't think anyone here misses the much-vaunted humour in Morrissey's lyrics, and yes whilst in parts it can be witty and self-deprecating there's an awful lot of just...misery, really.

I was talking about 'How Soon Is Now' in particular to what was quoted, and despite being a song I like I find the lyric ridiculous and unintentionally hilarious. Perhaps at a certain age these songs sound a little more comforting maybe, but a lot of it today reeks of an indulgent, distinctly parochial sense of self-pity.

I mean, where's the rock n' roll?

I'm not completely convinced of Morrissey's latter day comedic ability either - nowadays he's kinda pathetic, although I might be more inclined to join in with the hilarity when he quits mouthing his ever-increasing right wing views.

(Besides - when I think of the 'funniest men in rock', I begin to picture incredible Indie-Crimes against culture like those utter bastards We Are Fucking Scientists'. Not a good thing...)

Anyway, derailing this thread just a bit more...Morrissey. I half expect him nowadays to be quoted - like his hero Bowie - saying "...that Britain could benefit from a fascist leader." ...at least Bowie had a bonkers coke habit to blame.

See, I don't really want believe Morrissey is racist either - but let's face it, he does a FUCKING good impression of one.

AlreadyThere....yes, the recent quote regarding the Chinese is just one in a long line of unsavoury anecdotes etc - without getting all Conor McNicholas 'right-on at the NME' here.

Already There & Kant wrote: Ah, God, no. In Rainbows is terrible. It's like listening to Arcade Fire or any other elitist indie band. Insert what you like. I think it's just so pretentious. It's like elevator music. The album got hyped. Because it was released on the internet? There were albums before that. There's just so many people decorating their musical taste with Radiohead. But they don't really like the music, do they? This always reminds me of Kant or just the general concept of aesthetics. That's not why you like things, even though some of it has a point......

What? You are kidding, right? In Rainbows is the one Radiohead album that most certainly isn't pretentious - i'm gobsmacked you single out that album for that particular opinion - I mean just look at their goddamn back catalogue!

That album was probably the LEAST hyped since The Bends! It kinda just...appeared. For me, it's the only album that works as a whole piece, and much more than that, it's got a lot of soul and feeling and it feels like a 'new phase' Radiohead album.

It's fucking brilliant!

The albums before that...indeed:

A hotch-potch of half-baked songs and a lot of unsuccessful cribbing of the Warp catalogue. (Why bother? They do the emotional rock thing so much better...)
Q Magazine's Best Album Of All Time And The Universe. (it's not.)
A hyped-up, but merely average modern rock record with some pretty grating ballads.
And a dismal, Pixies knock-off debut.

I've missed Hail To The Thief as, well, there's nothing really to say about it. The sleeve was cool though.

Granted - 'Pyramid Song' was genius. And...that's it!

Please ...explain to me how In Rainbows is elitist, elevator music or *shudder* in any way like Arc*de F*re???

Meanwhile...back to 'The' Verve.

If you must...

radioshack · Post by **radioshack** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:46 pm

Barry, I'll break your heart now to soften the blow - I love the Verve. And I think Nick McCabe is the best guitar player I've heard. Whether it's the early cavernous, delay-heavy sound, or making the Ashcroft solo efforts more palatable, I dig him and rate him higher than most.

I'm surprised how many copies of the RPA album I saw 2nd hand whilst record shopping on Friday. I haven't heard it, but that Are You Ready? track was enough of an EWS to tell me not to bother. So I knew it was shit, but come on- who the hell would take a risk buying it on vinyl? Surely now Ashcroft must be thinking ''Fuck, I really do suck and cannot write a song worth a fuck without the other guys!''? He's got to be getting dropped after the failure of this album, huh?

and what's happened with the Black Ships? Are they writing the next Verve album secretly?

TheWarmth · Post by **TheWarmth** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:14 pm

Wow, what an interesting thread this has turned into. It's all over the place.

I'm going to try to weigh in on a few things again:

Morrissey ... Barry, I simply disagree with you here. The only solo albums I find difficult to get into are Kill Uncle and Maladjusted, and both of them have their moments. "Pathetic"? His solo carrer has had it's ups and downs, but for the most part it is incredibly solid (Viva Hate, Bona Drag, Vauxhall & I, Your Arsenal!!!!)The song "It's Not Your Birthday Anymore" from the recent Years of Refusal is incredible and probably one of my favorite songs of the past five years or so.

Regarding Radiohead, I agree with you here, Barry: In Rainbows is a great record. Unlike OK Computer it's not overwrought. Unlike Thief, it's concise. Unlike Amnesiac, it flows beautifully. I can find very few faults with it.

Finally ... bring on the Black Ships album!!! I can't wait.

Shaun · Post by **Shaun** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:58 pm

Ian wrote:I'm sure we've done this before, but...

The Bitter Sweet Symphony video is awful. Are we supposed to be cheering on Richard as he pushes all of those people out of the way? If it's supposed to indicate doing your own thing, not letting anyone tell you what to do, then there are much better ways of showing this than pushing over regular people and walking over their cars. He comes across as an absolute c***.

Haha, yes. Very nicely put. Shara Nelson did it and Richard Ashcroft did it. One did it with the Verve and the other did it with great vitality and verve.