LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s & NIRVANA!!!

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toomilk
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LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s & NIRVANA!!!

Post by toomilk »

...out of the top 200, according to the ever-supportive http://pitchfork.com

The take of "Ladies and Gentlemen We are Floating in Space" that leads almost all official copies of Spiritualized's 1997 masterpiece feels only like a preamble. "All I want in life's a little bit of love to take the pain away," moans Jason Pierce again and again, eventually intertwining elliptical verse about loving until dying and the uncertainty of the future around the listless, daydream hook. It builds, stalls and empties into the album's electric opus, "Come Together". But the version Pierce hoped to include was squashed by Elvis Presley's estate for its use of the melody and lyrics of "Can't Help Falling in Love". Officially released in 2009, the pan-Presley rendition feels like the encapsulation of not only an album and a career but, really, rock'n'roll, too. Pierce has spent a career teasing out the connections between healthy adoration and destructive obsession, between disaster and redemption. Surrounded by the sighs of strings, harmonica and a slide guitar and backed by a gospel choir singing some of the most desperately romantic lines in history, Pierce inserts himself into a woebegone lineage-- and devastates. --Grayson Currin

Beats out Bittersweet Symphony. Looking through the entire list, I feel like this might be the best 90s list I have ever seen....and I feel the 90s was (arguably) the worst decade for music.
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by MODLAB »

toomilk wrote:

Beats out Bittersweet Symphony. Looking through the entire list, I feel like this might be the best 90s list I have ever seen....and I feel the 90s was (arguably) the worst decade for music.

Are you joking?

M
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by One Asian Under A Groove »

I love lists like this - not because I agree with them but because they're an opportunity to find out about "classic" songs that have passed me by or to remind me of songs I'd forgotten about. I remember a cover of "Here's Where The Story Ends" but I've never heard The Sundays' original until now. I've been missing out. And I'd forgotten how much I loved two moments in En Vogue's "My Lovin'": "oooooOOOHH BOP!" and "now it's time for a break down..." I wonder what will be number 1 though? My guess would be Paranoid Android.
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by johnnyboy »

Yep, I've been reading this list each day this week. Nice seeing Higher Than The Sun in there at #90-something too. I like that they've chosen the Elvis mix of LAGWFIS. Pretty good list so far, and I like that you read through it and think seriously, what can trump that one, then up pops Cannonball, a classic, that made me laugh. Lists, you love/hate them.

#1 will probably be Radiohead or a hip hop song, seeing as it's Pitchfork......but I'm prepared to be surprised/annoyed in equal measure. EDIT: actually I'm going to plump for it being My Bloody Valentine, or they'll def be in the top 3, maybe with Soon.

Funny you mention the Sundays song because that one jumped out at me and made me remember having the album on cassette. I haven't heard it since those days but it did make me want to again.

The 90's were great by the way!
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by Minky »

toomilk wrote:Beats out Bittersweet Symphony. Looking through the entire list, I feel like this might be the best 90s list I have ever seen....and I feel the 90s was (arguably) the worst decade for music.
That's just crazy!
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by aadamm »

#1 should be Smells Like Teen Spirit, IMO. Not because I think it was "best", but it is the song I most associate with the decade.
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by James T »

Girls and Boys is in no way better than Tender or Beetlebum or almost any Blur song. Then again, it caught a moment.
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by jadams501 »

Meh. A typically pretentious list, more about pseudo-poetic posturing and self-congratulation than honest/heartfelt appreciation of the music.

I find the description of Spiritualized laughable and lacking any real insight into J's career. And Live Forever should have been way higher than 50. I can't be arsed to dig through the whole pile to see if they've cited it yet, but I expect that Paranoid Android will (yawn) be their #1 pick. Because it's about society, man.

:roll:
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by toomilk »

Is it crazy that I don't like the 1990s or that LAGWAFIS beat out BS?

I'm thinking you meant the former.

I just feel the 90s, on the whole, was the worst decade for music. Don't get me wrong, some of my favorite albums are from this decade. BUT the music the 1990s is known for fucking sucks. The rise of the boy bands...girl R&B groups...barf barf barf.
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by shalloboi »

i've always thought of the first half of the 90s as my generation's 60s. there are a lot of timeless albums that came out during that time. by 1995, though, i remember feeling like it was all slipping away and i also remember 1999 as being the singular worst year for music i think i've ever been alive for (i would hold true to this theory to this day). i think one day i'll be told by some irritating youngster to 'stop living in the 90s' because i definitely continue to.
jadams501 wrote:Meh. A typically pretentious list, more about pseudo-poetic posturing and self-congratulation than honest/heartfelt appreciation of the music.

I find the description of Spiritualized laughable and lacking any real insight into J's career.
yeah, leave it to those pitchfork kids. if i recall correctly this is their third 90s-related list. they're such revisionists i really wish that they wouldn't bother reviewing reissues or old tracks- it's just embarrassing. if 'ladies and gents...' came out today they'd fucking pan it.
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by Kurious Oranj »

shalloboi wrote: yeah, leave it to those pitchfork kids. if i recall correctly this is their third 90s-related list. they're such revisionists i really wish that they wouldn't bother reviewing reissues or old tracks- it's just embarrassing. if 'ladies and gents...' came out today they'd fucking pan it.
they gave the reissue a 10

but i agree this list is terrible.
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by BzaInSpace »

toomilk wrote:...I just feel the 90s, on the whole, was the worst decade for music. Don't get me wrong, some of my favorite albums are from this decade. BUT the music the 1990s is known for fucking sucks. The rise of the boy bands...girl R&B groups...barf barf barf.
What, like TLC, or Aaliyah? They made some genuinely amazing music around that time. Way better than the generic, cooler-than-thou lo-fi slacker "indie" bands promoted by the likes of Pitchfork.

However, like that list that Ben recently put on another thread, the biggest selling stuff (of the 90s) was truly bad - Garth Brooks, Crash Test Dummies, Hootie & the Fucking Blowfish...

My feeling is now the same kind of utterly hollow music is being pushed, just with more credible-looking bands.

I'd rather not name some of these horrors but... (sorry) Scouting for Girls. The fucking Hoosiers.
Even Kings of Leon have gone too far down the Dark Path to ever come back.
jadams501 wrote:Meh. A typically pretentious list, more about pseudo-poetic posturing and self-congratulation than honest/heartfelt appreciation of the music.
I find the description of Spiritualized laughable and lacking any real insight into J's career. And Live Forever should have been way higher than 50.
I totally agree with the pretention levels. But 'Live Forever'? Gah... Oasis should be in the fucking dumper where they belong! :lol:

'Ladies and Gentlemen' should be number 1.
'Come Together' at number 2.

And might as well have 'I think I'm in Love' at number 3.

Ultimately, these lists are meaningless. As is the whole Pitchfork thing!

I mean, they rate albums to one decimal point!

It's absurd. And look at some of the bands they rave on about. Christ... :roll:
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by Already There »

Awwww, Only Shallow on 6.

I don't think this list is a realistic representation, just a Pitchfork list. I like it though. :D

Paranoid Android on 4... Mh... OK... I must say it is VERY predictable for Pitchfork to have Radiohead and My Bloody Valentine so high on the list. Not that it bothers me that much, I love both bands.

Loser on 9... Cool. 8)

LAGWAFIS is a weird choice yet a predictable one, come on, it's off the 3rd album, Pitchfork had to choose this one. On 23? Mh... I like to see it so high. But...

Girls & Boys on 26. Cool.

Right, it was mentioned in the first post, but Bitter Sweet Symphony on 29? I mean... I know basically everything by The Verve and if that song is not at least in the top 10, then... Well, I don't know. ^^ What is this list based on? The particular taste of Pitchfork users? Well, that is ok for me, but... Anyway... Who am I to judge?
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by Already There »

toomilk wrote:Is it crazy that I don't like the 1990s or that LAGWAFIS beat out BS?

I'm thinking you meant the former.

I just feel the 90s, on the whole, was the worst decade for music. Don't get me wrong, some of my favorite albums are from this decade. BUT the music the 1990s is known for fucking sucks. The rise of the boy bands...girl R&B groups...barf barf barf.
The 90s are my favourite decade, music-wise, I think. I rate it even higher than the 80s or the 60s.

Boy bands and girl groups are not everything the 90s are about. And not all of that was bad anyway. My top... 4 bands are all 90s bands. Well, My Bloody Valentine are 2/3 80s, but they are rather timeless anyway. The Verve and Ride? I couldn't imagine what my life would be without them.

And, well, Oasis?

I know, you can argue with me on that point, but I have loved Oasis for too long to fully accept any antipathy towards them.
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by jadams501 »

BzaInSpace wrote:the biggest selling stuff (of the 90s) was truly bad - Garth Brooks, Crash Test Dummies, Hootie & the Fucking Blowfish...

My feeling is now the same kind of utterly hollow music is being pushed, just with more credible-looking bands.
I totally agree with you about the utterly hollow material being packaged to appeal to more "sophisticated" audiences -- who aren't aware enough to realize it's the same manufactured product coming off the same assembly lines from the same marketers, just pandering in a different way. The same can be said about movies, books, news, and politics at this point too...

But lay off Hootie! I liked their stuff growing up -- and what made them successful was that they were an enthusiastic bar band who were actually friends and had a handful of great rootsy pop songs. Not saying they were a memorable or particularly good group, but not on the level of manufactured awfulness of the Fuels, Third Eye Blinds, or Vertical Horizons that really blighted the 90s.
BzaInSpace wrote:I totally agree with the pretention levels. But 'Live Forever'? Gah... Oasis should be in the fucking dumper where they belong! :lol:

'Ladies and Gentlemen' should be number 1.
'Come Together' at number 2.

And might as well have 'I think I'm in Love' at number 3.
I love Oasis. I can see the flaws, but they've got some amazing songs and are several cuts above many of their 'peers.' Liam I can do without, but Noel is a multifaceted singer/songwriter in his own right. And Live Forever is an epic song.

Don't forget to put Angel Sigh in your top 3 somewhere...
Already There wrote:Right, it was mentioned in the first post, but Bitter Sweet Symphony on 29? I mean... I know basically everything by The Verve and if that song is not at least in the top 10, then... Well, I don't know. ^^ What is this list based on? The particular taste of Pitchfork users? Well, that is ok for me, but... Anyway... Who am I to judge?
Yeah BSS should have been top 10 -- and History and Gravity Grave, at the very least, should also have made the top hundred.
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by aadamm »

Okay, so SMLTS didn't get first, but it got, "More than any single song, "Smells Like Teen Spirit" altered the face of the 90s." That's pretty much what I wanted.

Happy to see high scores for Pulp, Wu-Tang, Pavement and Aphex. I never got what the fuss was about with "Paranoid Android".

All you fussing about the stupidity of pitchfork or the pretentiousness of the list: relax. Lists are fun ways to converse about things. You don't need to make it all super serious.
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by toomilk »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSWKw15rCoI


This is what the 90s did. I think this was written about J.
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by angelsighs »

I think the 90s was a great decade for music.
This list isn't too bad- Pitchfork do get it right sometimes. people can bitch all they want but at the end of the day lists are meant to encourage debate.
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by runcible »

1990-91 was a golden era for me. The amount of gigs I saw in a short period was amazing. it seemed almost every week there was at least one gig to go to and I recall more than one week where I went to at least 3 live shows.

A quick look back at my ticket stubs shows Mudhoney, Lubricated Goat, The Church, The Bevis Frond, Spiritualized, Sonic Youth, Jane's Addiction. Pixies, Nirvana, Ride, Grateful Dead, Cocteau Twins, Hawkwind, Thee Hypnotics, The Shamen, Galaxie 500, Five Thirty, Happy Mondays, Sisters of Mercy, The Darkside, Loop, Revolting Cocks, Poison Idea, Dub Syndicate, Sonic Boom, The Catherine Wheel, Fatima Mansions, Mercury Rev, Band of Susans, Verve, Bad Brains, Chapterhouse, Spitfire, Sun Dial, Shamisng Pumpkins, Swervedriver, The God Machine, Smashing Orange, Hole, The Sun Carriage, Ramones, The Damned, My Bloody Valentine, Ozric Tentacles...

Those are just 1990-1991 and I saw many of those bands several times. I now go to about 7 or 8 gigs a year at most. That makes the early 90's an incredible time to see live bands as far as I'm concerned.

As for Smells Like Teen Spirit... There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that this is the most important single of the last 20 years. In terms of the impact it had (whether good or bad) there is nothing to touch it. What's more - that whole Nirvana rise when Nevermind came out was totally without hype. That is an incredible thing to think about. Just 50,000 copies were pressed for the UK and I think they all sold on day 1. Geffen just didn't anticipate what was happening and the grunge explosion, which had been bubbling under furiously for about 2 years, took the music industry by surprise. When I saw Nirvana in 1990 I knew something was happening and about to burst the music scene apart although it took longer than I thought. The previous time that happened was when I saw Happy Mondays at ULU 18 months or so before that and again you just felt something significant was going on.

So I vote for the 90s as my favourite era for music that I was part of. It was consistently enjoyable for me. Of course the 60's and 70s are the greatest in terms of what was actually popular.
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by Minky »

Your post is eerily the same for me. The Mrs. and I were looking at your list, I think you guys were at the same shows. She was studying abroad in '90/'91 and saw a lot of the shows you mentioned. I also saw a lot of these bands here in the states. Your Nirvana comment is right on the money. I remember we got a promo in the mail at the record store where I worked, you just knew it was going to take off. The same thing for the Happy Mondays. We used to sell tons of the import because it wasn't released here. For me, this time was the best and most exciting for music.
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by jadams501 »

angelsighs wrote:I think the 90s was a great decade for music.
This list isn't too bad- Pitchfork do get it right sometimes. people can bitch all they want but at the end of the day lists are meant to encourage debate.
I think any legit list is bound to be idiosyncratic and not "DEFINITIVE" in any sense... the problem with lists from publications is that they have a specific commercial constituency to serve and get bent out of shape to be 'historical' or "indie" or holier-than-thou or whatever.

I may disagree with a list from a member of this forum, but it would represent the specific healtfelt tastes of a real person, which I respect.

The recent 100 Best Rock Songs of All Time list from Rolling Stone was about tipping the hat to their aging boomer audience, and this Pitchfork list is about making their audience feel cool for reading the site and giving them material to namedrop at hipster parties -- neither of which I think are worthy of masquerading as a genuine record of significant/quality music.

Here's to the real opinions of living, breathing listeners -- not synthesized collectives trying to pander and promote their product to some market niche!
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by Guessed »

Gawd, there's a lot of stuff on that list that is appaling!
This probably backs up the statement by Kevin that the 90's were pretty poor. We're between 10 & 20 years out that decade now and a lot of the stuff on that list is so dated.

I'm assuming that pitchfork is American; a lot of hip-hop and R&B showing up.

Nice to see Arthur Russell pitch up at #71 and Hyperballad at #11 is welcome but quite surprising.

I dunno how Pulp pitched in at #2 but then how Beau Mot Plage got to #186 is equally unusual.

At least predictability is out the window with this one!

B,
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by One Asian Under A Groove »

I know it's a subjective list... I know I said earlier in this thread that I like reading lists like this... but having enjoyed the mentions of such a variety of ace songs as LAGWAFIS, TLC's Creep, Groove Is In The Heart, Higher Than The Sun, Doo Wop (That Thing), No Diggity, Bitter Sweet Symphony and more, I am astonished as to how that Pavement song could be number one when it's so completely, utterly, forgettably AVERAGE. It's like choosing the best World Cup goals of all time and mentioning Maradona's solo goal, Brazil 1970's team goal, Bergkamp v Argentina and Roberto Baggio before choosing Landon Donovan's consolation goal for USA v Poland in 2002. Farce.
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by BzaInSpace »

aadamm wrote: All you fussing about the stupidity of pitchfork or the pretentiousness of the list: relax. Lists are fun ways to converse about things. You don't need to make it all super serious.
Why not? I take music very seriously - and I take particular umbrage with the likes of Pitchfork, which mostly is all surface and no feeling, promoting it's own "indie-centric" idea of what's "cool" rather than say, a genuine love of music.

I haven't checked this list out, and probably never will, the fact that a Pavement...PAVEMENT :lol: song was voted 'The Best Song of the 1990's' just says it all. Maybe it's a joke list? Either that or they are on bad drugs indeed.

Glad they put in 'No Diggity' in there. But I sense that the inclusion of some of these non-indie-rock tracks are for pure tokenistic reasons - just like the UK music mags sporadic Top 10/20/50 album lists.
They always have What's Going On somewhere in their lists, but it's never number 1.
Unlike Radiohead or... O***s.
jadams501 wrote: I think any legit list is bound to be idiosyncratic and not "DEFINITIVE" in any sense... the problem with lists from publications is that they have a specific commercial constituency to serve and get bent out of shape to be 'historical' or "indie" or holier-than-thou or whatever.
I may disagree with a list from a member of this forum, but it would represent the specific healtfelt tastes of a real person, which I respect.
Here's to the real opinions of living, breathing listeners -- not synthesized collectives trying to pander and promote their product to some market niche!
Exactly - I couldn't agree more. "Synthesized collectives" - brilliant!

This idea of music - singles, tracks etc being judged on how "important" they are makes me want to puke!

NIRVANA are/were not "important" - although they just rock better than any other band from that time. No question.
The records are awesome artifacts of pure mainline rock n' roll.
That's all that matters, the rest of it is fluff for the music press to froth over.

:twisted:
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by runcible »

BzaInSpace wrote:

NIRVANA are/were not "important" - although they just rock better than any other band from that time. No question.
The records are awesome artifacts of pure mainline rock n' roll.
That's all that matters, the rest of it is fluff for the music press to froth over.

:twisted:
I think they were massively important. My dad has an expression for wine he enjoys but that's about all he can say about it: 'a very good but ultimately unimportant wine' and I think that can be used about a lot of things. But not Nirvana. They became the symbol of grunge and, for me, grunge is the last significant/important thing to happen in rock/pop music. Sure a lot of grunge was recycled heavy rock and punk but it became a genre in its own right and spurred a ludicrous amount of scenes and bands, some good, some not good. Since that era absolutely nothing of significance has happened to music.

In case people are wondering the previous significant thing I look at in the music scene was acid house and the rave explosion in 1988. It changed the music scene, as grunge did later, and as punk did over a decade earlier... and as heavy rock did in the early 70's... and as psychedelia did in the late 60's... and on we go. You can trace pivotal events back probably to the earliest blues in the 20s and 30s.

I am waiting for something interesting to happen to rock music - something that turned it upside down in the way that grunge did. Little evidence of anything happening though so we've had the best part of 20 years treading water IMHO. Lots of great bands but nothing new. Having said that I can't think of where rock music can go that's actually new territory.
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by TheWarmth »

I agree with Runcible about Nirvana. They might not have been the very first band to play that style of rock (I hate to use the term "grunge," but that's what people call it, right?), but they were the ones to take it into the stratosphere and have ultimately been proved to be heavily influential in the same way as the Velvet Underground or Stooges. I think there are numerous bands that get a lot of respect around these parts that either wouldn't exist or certainly wouldn't sound the way they do had the grunge thing not happened. Perhaps that kind of speculation is useless, but I feel I've made my point, nonetheless.

As far as the next big revolutionary sound or band is concerned, I'm not worried about that. I still find that there is plenty of music out there to get excited about and genuinely moved by. This year has been a bit slow, I will admit, but there is a healthy handful of records coming out this fall that I'm looking forward to. As I mentioned in the Belle & Sebastian thread, the song that they played at the very end of that new half hour promo film is phenomenal and the most joyous thing I have heard in quite some time. I highly recommend giving it a listen if you have time. The whole thing is entertaining and clever:

http://pitchfork.com/news/39945-hear-tw ... ian-songs/
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by mojo filters »

Thanks for the B&S link - that new song at the end is really impressive, and hopefully a very good sign for the rest of the album. I especially like the weird middle 8 section that reminds me of Stephen Street's production on early solo Morrissey stuff.

I've seen a few live Youtube vids of the song already, but wasn't too impressed with the performances of that song, and others. Hopefully these are just warm-up gigs, and things will be tightened up by the Sage gig in December.


As for LAGWAFIS, I'm surprised how many folks prefer the 'Elvis' ending on the new/original version. Whilst the longer live versions that incorporated all the lyrics sound great, now I've got the official record version the novelty's worn off - I much prefer the original release including the extra Spaceman lyrics.
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by Already There »

jadams501 wrote: I love Oasis. I can see the flaws, but they've got some amazing songs and are several cuts above many of their 'peers.' Liam I can do without, but Noel is a multifaceted singer/songwriter in his own right. And Live Forever is an epic song.

Don't forget to put Angel Sigh in your top 3 somewhere...
Oh, Angel Sigh. That would be nice, too.

And I totally agree with what you said about Oasis. Live Forever definitely deserves a place up there.
jadams501 wrote:
Already There wrote:Right, it was mentioned in the first post, but Bitter Sweet Symphony on 29? I mean... I know basically everything by The Verve and if that song is not at least in the top 10, then... Well, I don't know. ^^ What is this list based on? The particular taste of Pitchfork users? Well, that is ok for me, but... Anyway... Who am I to judge?
Yeah BSS should have been top 10 -- and History and Gravity Grave, at the very least, should also have made the top hundred.
I think Gravity Grave would have been a too interesting choice. I think BSS combines quality with public appeal.
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by Shaun »

runcible wrote:
As for Smells Like Teen Spirit... There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that this is the most important single of the last 20 years. In terms of the impact it had (whether good or bad) there is nothing to touch it.

I'm not absolutely sold by that, in regards to it being the most important single of the last 20 years, but I understand the sentiment behind the statement and especially about 'Smells Like Teen Spirit.' There was another single also released in 1991 which I consider to be no less important than 'SLTS' and that is 'Unfinished Sympathy.' Obviously from a different genre but it had a massive effect on British music and the 90's. Plus I think it was the best single released in 1991.

runcible wrote: But not Nirvana. They became the symbol of grunge and, for me, grunge is the last significant/important thing to happen in rock/pop music. Sure a lot of grunge was recycled heavy rock and punk but it became a genre in its own right and spurred a ludicrous amount of scenes and bands, some good, some not good. Since that era absolutely nothing of significance has happened to music.

In case people are wondering the previous significant thing I look at in the music scene was acid house and the rave explosion in 1988. It changed the music scene, as grunge did later, and as punk did over a decade earlier... and as heavy rock did in the early 70's... and as psychedelia did in the late 60's... and on we go. You can trace pivotal events back probably to the earliest blues in the 20s and 30s.
Again, I would not overlook or even dismiss what was happening in Bristol back then.
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by Guessed »

Shaun wrote:
runcible wrote:
As for Smells Like Teen Spirit... There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that this is the most important single of the last 20 years. In terms of the impact it had (whether good or bad) there is nothing to touch it.

I'm not absolutely sold by that, in regards to it being the most important single of the last 20 years, but I understand the sentiment behind the statement and especially about 'Smells Like Teen Spirit.' There was another single also released in 1991 which I consider to be no less important than 'SLTS' and that is 'Unfinished Sympathy.' Obviously from a different genre but it had a massive effect on British music and the 90's. Plus I think it was the best single released in 1991.

runcible wrote: But not Nirvana. They became the symbol of grunge and, for me, grunge is the last significant/important thing to happen in rock/pop music. Sure a lot of grunge was recycled heavy rock and punk but it became a genre in its own right and spurred a ludicrous amount of scenes and bands, some good, some not good. Since that era absolutely nothing of significance has happened to music.

In case people are wondering the previous significant thing I look at in the music scene was acid house and the rave explosion in 1988. It changed the music scene, as grunge did later, and as punk did over a decade earlier... and as heavy rock did in the early 70's... and as psychedelia did in the late 60's... and on we go. You can trace pivotal events back probably to the earliest blues in the 20s and 30s.
Again, I would not overlook or even dismiss what was happening in Bristol back then.
Ok, perhaps not in relation to these two posts but as it's a good debate; my tuppence worth.

I think there's a far more focussed "micro" scene(s) happening since the late 90's.
Onset of the internet allows more minute details; no longer are you (certainly in this country) part of the grunge rock camp or the brit-pop/big beat camp.
You can pick (essentially) exactly what you want to hear from your music because artists have disected so many avenues to there ultimate, that if you want something it's there.

Last night I heard a very old style 80's synth pop groove with a very up-to-date black american "slowed/dragged" vocal played over the top. I didn't catch the name of the track but that's not important. What is important is the fact that if you want something now; someone is "probably" already doing it for you.
With "us" being such an idiosyncratic bunch; the mass/mob positioning with one camp or the other no longer exists.
I am both glad and troubled by that.
On one hand it means a helluva lot of creativity floats about on the other a helluva lot of dross.

For me; Nirvana (and that scene) much the same as Oasis (and that scene) were essentially about camaraderie firstly before music.
Perhaps this was due to timescale and my own positioning within that timeframe.

Good chat.

B,
S.
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by BzaInSpace »

Shaun wrote:...There was another single also released in 1991 which I consider to be no less important than 'SLTS' and that is 'Unfinished Sympathy.' Obviously from a different genre but it had a massive effect on British music and the 90's. Plus I think it was the best single released in 1991...
I totally agree Shaun - even though I first heard it a good 5/6 years later. Besides...'Teen Spirit' is not even one of the best songs on the still amazing Nevermind!

The "importance" thing - possibly a heavy handed retort from me earlier, as I will state that Nirvana were massively important for me and my friends - this was my punk rock!

But this on completely personal level.

But I also think its long-term affect on rock n' roll has sadly been fairly neligible. What happened to a lot of the ideals and even the bands that Kurt championed? A few years later UK culture was fucked up with the whole Loaded/Britpop bullshit which was so far from the kind of attitudes that Nirvana (and others) promoted - and it's still suffers from this IMO.

Apart from (in)directly influencing all-time-great albums from Pearl Jam, Alice in Chains, and Manic Street Preachers (Vitalogy, Alice In Chains and The Holy Bible respectively) the monumental downside seemed to be the rise of a thousand truly horrible frat/skate/shit supposedly 'punk' bands ... I'd rather not name names but you gotta who I'm talking about.

I'd like to see someone take the In Utero sound and really run with it. How amazing would that be...
Guessed wrote:Good chat.
As always!
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by jadams501 »

Already There wrote:I think Gravity Grave would have been a too interesting choice. I think BSS combines quality with public appeal.
"Too interesting," ha. Since half that list was chosen to prove cred in one microniche or another, they could well have nodded to some top space rock!
mojo filters wrote:As for LAGWAFIS, I'm surprised how many folks prefer the 'Elvis' ending on the new/original version. Whilst the longer live versions that incorporated all the lyrics sound great, now I've got the official record version the novelty's worn off - I much prefer the original release including the extra Spaceman lyrics.
Maybe it's that Can't Help Falling In Love is one of my very favorite classic pop songs, but I think the impact of the Elvis version is much more immediate and the album take is a more mannered compromise. I'm glad to have both, but the album version has been all but supplanted as far as my listening is concerned.
runcible wrote:
BzaInSpace wrote: NIRVANA are/were not "important" - although they just rock better than any other band from that time. No question.
The records are awesome artifacts of pure mainline rock n' roll.
That's all that matters, the rest of it is fluff for the music press to froth over.

:twisted:
I think they were massively important. My dad has an expression for wine he enjoys but that's about all he can say about it: 'a very good but ultimately unimportant wine' and I think that can be used about a lot of things. But not Nirvana. They became the symbol of grunge and, for me, grunge is the last significant/important thing to happen in rock/pop music. Sure a lot of grunge was recycled heavy rock and punk but it became a genre in its own right and spurred a ludicrous amount of scenes and bands, some good, some not good. Since that era absolutely nothing of significance has happened to music.
I think it's difficult to argue that very much music is "important" in a historical sense as the initial shock of popular music getting more overtly rude and sexualized wore off into the 70s and 80s post Elvis, Dylan, Beatles, James Brown etc. Of course individual groups may strike people of a certain age as symbolic of some feeling they had, or influential on their fashion or whatever, but music is at least as reflective of the times as it tends to be a direct influence on them. Most pop musicians, Kurt Cobain certainly included, are too busy rehearsing and living rock 'n' roll excess to do a whole lot of sophisticated thinking about historical trends and the socio-political scene -- and the thinking that they do is often geared towards convincing listeners and rock journalists that they're deep in order to sell more records and seem "important," whatever that means.
BzaInSpace wrote:'Teen Spirit' is not even one of the best songs on the still amazing Nevermind!

The "importance" thing - possibly a heavy handed retort from me earlier, as I will state that Nirvana were massively important for me and my friends - this was my punk rock!

But this on completely personal level.

But I also think its long-term affect on rock n' roll has sadly been fairly neligible. What happened to a lot of the ideals and even the bands that Kurt championed? A few years later UK culture was fucked up with the whole Loaded/Britpop bullshit which was so far from the kind of attitudes that Nirvana (and others) promoted - and it's still suffers from this IMO.

Apart from (in)directly influencing all-time-great albums from Pearl Jam, Alice in Chains, and Manic Street Preachers (Vitalogy, Alice In Chains and The Holy Bible respectively) the monumental downside seemed to be the rise of a thousand truly horrible frat/skate/shit supposedly 'punk' bands ... I'd rather not name names but you gotta who I'm talking about.

I'd like to see someone take the In Utero sound and really run with it. How amazing would that be...
To me Kurt Cobain was one of the worst offenders in terms of self-promotion via pseudo-intellectual posturing. I'm a big Nirvana fan, particularly of In Utero, but I don't think he championed much besides himself, drug abuse, and various obscure bands that would make himself look like some sort of champion/guru of the underground. It went along with the whole grunge thing of anointed depressed and unstable (but photogenic) junkies as some sort of insightful generational spokesmen rather than some pretty "fucked up children" who happened to make some distinctive music. The trend of fame-hungry drug addicts playing to teenage fans' music tribalism by raising the flag of "independence" and "refusal to compromise" while marketing manufactured slick pop has continued unabated -- as it did before Kurt but that he probably played some minor part in encouraging.

Not that I'd dismiss Nirvana in those terms. In Utero is a genuinely raw & brave record, and Unplugged is a haunting masterpiece -- I even like some of the sludginess of the early stuff -- but I find Nevermind next to unlistenable. The radio-ready sheen is so overpowering, and much of it is just so slick, that I have a lot of trouble understanding how people took it as some fundamental break from hair-metal -- it's gussied up in precisely the same way, and some of the mean-spiritedness of tracks like In Bloom are just a different angle on appealing to insecure pimply-faced 14 year olds... myself among them, at that age. :) I think it's a clumsy and poorly produced lunge for stardom that doesn't do justice to the strength of its better songs and sits comfortably next to Metallica's Black Album and whatever else was burning up the charts for the masses in '91-'92. The box set and live versions prove that a lot of that material was really great, but I almost never listen to the Nevermind LP.
Guessed wrote:I think there's a far more focussed "micro" scene(s) happening since the late 90's.
Onset of the internet allows more minute details; no longer are you (certainly in this country) part of the grunge rock camp or the brit-pop/big beat camp.
You can pick (essentially) exactly what you want to hear from your music because artists have disected so many avenues to there ultimate, that if you want something it's there.

Last night I heard a very old style 80's synth pop groove with a very up-to-date black american "slowed/dragged" vocal played over the top. I didn't catch the name of the track but that's not important. What is important is the fact that if you want something now; someone is "probably" already doing it for you.
With "us" being such an idiosyncratic bunch; the mass/mob positioning with one camp or the other no longer exists.
I am both glad and troubled by that.
On one hand it means a helluva lot of creativity floats about on the other a helluva lot of dross.
Yeah the industry has broken into a million tiny microniches serving boutique product to people with specific interests. This can be good, like a lot of the bands that broadly cater to fans of Spiritualized and like-minded groups, but it also encourages a lot of pretentious crap based on "the scene" more than wanting to really be creative. Plus I'd argue it discourages the sort of genre-busting world-conquering greatness that many of the best bands have had in the past, and it helps make the music industry even more of an assembly line.
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by MODLAB »

When I look back on the 90's I just see how MTV made a whole generation fall for Nirvana/Pearl Jam. During that time when people like me who really did not embrace the whole Grunge scene had 120min...

Just a quick thought brought to you by,

M
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by runcible »

Shaun wrote: I'm not absolutely sold by that, in regards to it being the most important single of the last 20 years, but I understand the sentiment behind the statement and especially about 'Smells Like Teen Spirit.'
No sentiment involved Shaun. I stand behind my statement - that single dragged the music scene in one particular direction more than any other in the last 20 years.

I must confess that have never even heard of Unfinished Symphony and had to Google it to see who it was by! I'm not in any way putting down your claim that it was an important record - it probably was - but try and find someone who is into popular music who has not heard of SLTS... I think that's of some significance.
Again, I would not overlook or even dismiss what was happening in Bristol back then.
Absolutely not - that was a very important scene - but I can't compare it to what came out of Seattle in the early 90's in terms of impact on popular music. Good shout though.
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by runcible »

MODLAB wrote:When I look back on the 90's I just see how MTV made a whole generation fall for Nirvana/Pearl Jam. During that time when people like me who really did not embrace the whole Grunge scene had 120min...

Just a quick thought brought to you by,

M
I don't agree with you Mark. Nirvana blasted onto the scene without the hype normally associated with such events. Geffen had no idea of what was going to happen when Nevermind was released - it's the only time I can remember a scene taking the industry by surprise. The Pearl Jam thing happened in the wake of what Nirvana were doing - that was hyped for sure - and MTV only leapt on it when it was already huge. The hype happened after Nirvana became the biggest band in the world almost overnight. I saw them play at the Reading Festival at 3 p.m. in the afternoon in August - by November they could have sold out the whole festival on their own.

I suspect you are still wincing at the idea that Grunge killed off Shoegaze as I know how close to your heart that movement was!
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by MODLAB »

runcible wrote:
MODLAB wrote:When I look back on the 90's I just see how MTV made a whole generation fall for Nirvana/Pearl Jam. During that time when people like me who really did not embrace the whole Grunge scene had 120min...

Just a quick thought brought to you by,

M
I don't agree with you Mark. Nirvana blasted onto the scene without the hype normally associated with such events. Geffen had no idea of what was going to happen when Nevermind was released - it's the only time I can remember a scene taking the industry by surprise. The Pearl Jam thing happened in the wake of what Nirvana were doing - that was hyped for sure - and MTV only leapt on it when it was already huge. The hype happened after Nirvana became the biggest band in the world almost overnight. I saw them play at the Reading Festival at 3 p.m. in the afternoon in August - by November they could have sold out the whole festival on their own.

I suspect you are still wincing at the idea that Grunge killed off Shoegaze as I know how close to your heart that movement was!

This is from Wikipedia.

Initially, DGC Records was hoping to sell 250,000 copies of Nevermind, which was the same level they had achieved with Sonic Youth's Goo.[21] However, the album's first single "Smells Like Teen Spirit" quickly gained momentum, thanks in part to significant airplay of the song's music video on MTV. As they toured Europe during late 1991, the band found that the shows were dangerously oversold, that television crews were becoming a constant presence onstage, and that "Smells Like Teen Spirit" was almost omnipresent on radio and music television.[22] By Christmas 1991, Nevermind was selling 400,000 copies a week in the US.[23] On January 11, 1992, the album reached number one on the Billboard album charts, displacing Michael Jackson's album Dangerous.[24] The album also topped the charts in numerous countries worldwide.[25] The month Nevermind reached number one, Billboard proclaimed, "Nirvana is that rare band that has everything: critical acclaim, industry respect, pop radio appeal, and a rock-solid college/alternative base."[26]

So I would say it was a bit of both. I do remember that the song was played every hour on MTV. I hated the song and to this day the only album I like from them and own is Bleach.

True it did kill off Shoegaze and i'm sure it lodged in the back of my mind not to embrace that music. I do have a soft spot for Soundgardens Ultramega though.

M
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by Horrorflick »

Who the fuck is Pavement?
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by Shaun »

but try and find someone who is into popular music who has not heard of SLTS... I think that's of some significance.
If you and I stood at either end of Oxford St for a day and asked that question I believe there's no doubt that between us we'd find hundreds of people who hadn't.
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by runcible »

Ah well... the old 'agree to disagree' thing I suspect. That's what makes musical opinions differ I guess. We'd also probably find people who hadn't heard of The Beatles too.
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by toomilk »

However, it would be a unanimous "yes" if you mentioned, "you know, that one song from Moulin Rouge!"
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by shalloboi »

toomilk wrote:However, it would be a unanimous "yes" if you mentioned, "you know, that one song from Moulin Rouge!"
Horrorflick wrote:Who the fuck is Pavement?
:lol:

i get a little sick of hearing about how important 'smells like teen spirit' was. i never liked it- to me it's always been the only nirvana song to most people and i was 12 the first time i heard it. what got me into nirvana was actually that live session they did on mtv that they would run clips from a lot and it was 'drain you' that i thought was amazing and made me buy the record.
jadams501 wrote: In Utero is a genuinely raw & brave record, and Unplugged is a haunting masterpiece -- I even like some of the sludginess of the early stuff -- but I find Nevermind next to unlistenable. The radio-ready sheen is so overpowering, and much of it is just so slick, that I have a lot of trouble understanding how people took it as some fundamental break from hair-metal -- it's gussied up in precisely the same way, and some of the mean-spiritedness of tracks like In Bloom are just a different angle on appealing to insecure pimply-faced 14 year olds... myself among them, at that age. :) I think it's a clumsy and poorly produced lunge for stardom that doesn't do justice to the strength of its better songs and sits comfortably next to Metallica's Black Album and whatever else was burning up the charts for the masses in '91-'92. The box set and live versions prove that a lot of that material was really great, but I almost never listen to the Nevermind LP.
this is a sentiment that i completely agree with. i hardly ever listen to 'nevermind' either these days. i also think this is true of the two pumpkins records that butch vig produced- the drums sound terrible, the guitars are compressed and doubled into thin, toothless oblivion and it just seems like so much sound and fury over something that should just be allowed the space and immediacy to be what it is. this is why listening to 'in utero' when i was 14 was such a revelation- i'd never heard a record like that and it was very eye-opening.
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by Horrorflick »

I kind of dug that cover they did of The Man Who Sold the World...
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by BzaInSpace »

MODLAB wrote:True it did kill off Shoegaze and i'm sure it lodged in the back of my mind not to embrace that music....
Maybe it needed to be killed off... put to sleep, nodding off over yet another FX pedal...I was a bit too young for it, But I loathed that entire "scene that celebrates itself" - to these ears the most dullest, sexless, least rocking music ever. I was pissed off when not so long ago a Rob da Bank compilation album featured Spiritualized & J&MC along with a bunch of other chumps entitled "Shoegazing" appeared -

To even consider Spiritualized in the same breath is madness - if anything most of those band have just ripped off the Lazer Guided Melodies/Loveless template and done f--- all else.

Nirvana? Nirvana still sounds like real passion, excitement, love and death and everything else. The squabbling about Nevermind's production is frankly stupid and pointless- who cares if it sounds a bit slick anyway? Most modern hack record production sounds exactly the same. Just listen to 'Territorial Pissings' ...you call that overproduced?

Ultimately it sounds absolutely great at large volume. It rules!

(Besides, you can alway hunt down the 1996 Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab remastered edition... a much better, truer, less compressed sound - but ultimately the record could have been produced for $600 by Jack Endino and it would still have been amazing...)

Horrorflick wrote:Who the fuck is Pavement?
EXACTLY! :lol:
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by MODLAB »

BzaInSpace wrote:
MODLAB wrote:True it did kill off Shoegaze and i'm sure it lodged in the back of my mind not to embrace that music....
Maybe it needed to be killed off... put to sleep, nodding off over yet another FX pedal...I was a bit too young for it, But I loathed that entire "scene that celebrates itself" - to these ears the most dullest, sexless, least rocking music ever. I was pissed off when not so long ago a Rob da Bank compilation album featured Spiritualized & J&MC along with a bunch of other chumps entitled "Shoegazing".

To even consider Spiritualized in the same breath is madness - if anything most of those band have just ripped off the Lazer Guided Melodies/Loveless template and done f--- all else.

Nirvana? Nirvana still sounds like real passion, excitement, love and death and everything else. The squabbling about Nevermind's production is frankly stupid and pointless- who cares if it sounds a bit slick anyway? Most modern hack record production sounds exactly the same. Just listen to 'Territorial Pissings' ...you call that overproduced?

Ultimately it sounds absolutely great at large volume. It rules!

(Besides, you can alway hunt down the 1996 Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab remastered edition... a much better, truer, less compressed sound - but ultimately the record could have been produced for $600 by Jack Endino and it would still have been amazing...)

Horrorflick wrote:Who the fuck is Pavement?
EXACTLY! :lol:


You have your opinion and I will take 101 effect pedals any day of the week over Kurt Cobain.

Yes, actually I would say SPZ has a shoegaze side to it. Don't forget Cockteau Twins, Pale Saints etc.

All of these bands created a scene which I embraced. They had a perfect mix of psychedelia, dreaminess and
darkness rolled into one.

B,


M


PS: Meet me at the Necropolis at 5PM 3rd stone from the right! ;)
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by BzaInSpace »

jadams501 wrote: To me Kurt Cobain was one of the worst offenders in terms of self-promotion via pseudo-intellectual posturing. I'm a big Nirvana fan, particularly of In Utero, but I don't think he championed much besides himself, drug abuse, and various obscure bands that would make himself look like some sort of champion/guru of the underground....
You've got to be kidding right? Firstly, most of these "obscure" bands were no longer obscure once Kurt 'championed' them - who else was raving on about Daniel Johnston in 1991? Then then there are the Meat Puppets, The Raincoats, Vaselines, Shonen Knife, etc etc...he was also primarily responsible for a long overdue resurgence in interest in the works of Leadbelly ...and probably even David Bowie.

Pseudo-intellectual posturing? Bollocks! You oughta read the liner notes for Incesticide, or just pick any number of interviews where Kurt spouted off regarding feminisim, sexual equality, racism and anything else. I don't see any other big time artists who are willing to draw that kind of fire by speaking openly, honestly and truthfully.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say the guy was a saint - just like John Lennon he was as flawed as any human being - but like Lennon he stood up for what he believed in, so respect will always be due.

Good chat on In Utero though... :D
MODLAB wrote:You have your opinion and I will take 101 effect pedals any day of the week over Kurt Cobain...
:D Yeah, but see Kurt only really needed the one effects pedal (a Boss DS2)....
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by bunnyben »

smells like teen was important then live forever then the drugs don't work then yellow then last nite then the popular song by the libertines then the popular song by the artic monkeys. it happens. one song spurs on a whole new appreciation of music for a different audience. it happens, if your lucky it's a good song (live forever, drugs, yellow, last nite), and if not then you are unlucky. it is about crossing over from indie obsurity to the mainstream. most movements and cults, so to speak, come from the media (grunge, brit pop, the new thing the strokes were supposed to start, the flag beating englishness or should i say anti americanism of the libertines movement.

see a pattern? us movement, reactionary uk, reactionary us etc.

i'm sure it's the same with everything from iplods to restraunts. it happens.
'raging and weeping are left on the early road
now each in his holy hill
the glittering and hurting days are alomst done
then let us compare mythologies
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of soaring crosses and poisened thorns'
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by Horrorflick »

Spiritualized really don't use a ton of effects. When they do it's fucking spectacular! Jason Pierce brought songwriting back into the "shoegazing" fold. You have to admit those effects really do sound better when there's an incredible song underneath all that. (See the Verve, Catherine Wheel, Spiritualized, the Cure for examples of this.) I think it's kind of ironic though that Neil Halstead had to throw away all the effects and just go back to the good old acoustic guitar and piano to show what kind of songwriter (incredible, awesome!) he really is. If you've ever seen Mojave 3 live though, he still does have a little of the guitar hero in him... :mrgreen:
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by TheWarmth »

I think it depends on what your definition of an "effect" is. In my mind, echo, delay, tremolo, flanging, phasing, fuzz, distortion and reverb are all effects that Spiritualized use frequently and on virtually every release. There's nothing wrong with it, either, as long as it compliments the song.
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by jadams501 »

BzaInSpace wrote:You've got to be kidding right? Firstly, most of these "obscure" bands were no longer obscure once Kurt 'championed' them - who else was raving on about Daniel Johnston in 1991? Then then there are the Meat Puppets, The Raincoats, Vaselines, Shonen Knife, etc etc...he was also primarily responsible for a long overdue resurgence in interest in the works of Leadbelly ...and probably even David Bowie.

Pseudo-intellectual posturing? Bollocks! You oughta read the liner notes for Incesticide, or just pick any number of interviews where Kurt spouted off regarding feminisim, sexual equality, racism and anything else. I don't see any other big time artists who are willing to draw that kind of fire by speaking openly, honestly and truthfully.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say the guy was a saint - just like John Lennon he was as flawed as any human being - but like Lennon he stood up for what he believed in, so respect will always be due.

Good chat on In Utero though... :D
I just went back to see if the liner notes to Incesticide were as smug, incoherent, and self-congratulatory as I remembered... yep!

What good does it do any of those causes if Kurt is snottily stumping for them a few sentences away from calling Courtney Love a misunderstood goddess who's attacked only because she threatens "The Man"? Did he actually know anything about those causes-- or, more likely, was it consciously crafting a 'progressive' image by name-dropping the fashionable "consciousness raising" issue of the week? I suppose I really idolized Kurt Cobain at a certain age, and then after I read Heavier Than Heaven and learned more about the man and not the deliberately invented "damaged John Lennon of the 90s," I've felt a compulsion to debunk the myth. I think Kurt the songwriter was an extraordinary talent -- but Kurt the man was far more flawed than most.

I must also disagree regarding the rarity of artists standing up for one cause or another. It's a very old trick for musicians to glom on to political fads to burnish their counter-culture credentials as "conscious" artists. It's a cheap way to try to make one's work seem broader in scope and to attract journos/fans who are looking for a guru to worship -- and it happens all the time. Look at all the people who were anti-Reagan or anti-Nukes or rocking against racism or anti-Bush or anti-WBush or anti-Iraq war or pro-Obama. I'm sure many of them believe it on some level, but a big part of it is image management too. I studied policy in college, so I tend to have little patience for people who spout platitudes as if they are profound and meaty truths. My feeling is that Cobain generally believed in his causes, but was perhaps more interested in pushing people's buttons, and saw an opportunity to paint himself as some kind of philosopher during the media frenzy around grunge as some sort of second coming of the 60s.

As for John Lennon, I think most of his political songwriting is very weak. Lots of hollow glorification of so-called "revolutionaries" peddling easy answers to complex and enduring social problems -- as if shouting slogans and vilifying easy targets will actually solve anything. I think Lennon meant well, though his activism seemed pretty tied into insufferable arrogance, but I've seen little evidence that he ever bothered to read extensively and/or do much serious thinking about the actual issues. Kind of like Bruce Springsteen. I suppose I think musicians should refrain from political advocacy if they're not going to bother going deeper than saying "damn the man" in one manner or another.

As an example of responsible activism, I'd point to George Harrison and the Concert for Bangladesh -- he picked a specific issue to inform the public about, and raised money specifically for disaster relief. There was a specific purpose and a clear point, and much good was done. Compare that to John & Paul calling Apple Records (which was notoriously poorly run) a "kind of Western Communism" as if that made any sense or could actually run a successful business.

Good chat! :D
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by johnnyboy »

Re: the earlier talk about wanting to see 3 Spz songs in the top 100, or a few Verve ones......the rules were 1 song per band. Tough list to make with that rule!

As for Nirvana. I'm a bit cliched on that front, I much prefer the Bleach era. I know that's supposed to be the opinion of the uber hipster desperate to distance themselves from the hugely popular Nirvana of Nevermind but it's an honest opinion for me. I can remember getting into the Sub Pop sound back in 88/89 (roughly) and bought Bleach on vinyl because I'd read a small piece about them and because ultimately I loved the front cover. It was either that or Superfuzz Bigmuff, which I bought the following week. Bleach was a revelation, totally loved it. Went to see them live a couple of times around that era, at the Astoria with Mudhoney & Tad, totally blew me away with their raw power and wildness. I was into Mudhoney more but Bleach and a couple of other tracks on Sub Pop comps weren't that far away. Saw them play the afternoon slot at Reading which still sticks in my mind to this day, unlike the other sets that day from the likes of Chapterhouse, poss the Telescopes (I wore a t-shirt by them, so they prob did play). They seemed to rip apart the shoegaze scene we had over here, and I was hugely into that too.

And then came Nevermind.

I bought that on vinyl, played it a fair bit. Grew sick and tired of SLTS when it just seemed to take over and swamp everything around it. Like someone else said, it's not even the best song on the album. It was just the song that blew open the doors, right song, right time, right place, whatever, catchy and grungey, perfect for the radio/MTV/masses. For me the production on Nevermind was too slick and polished compared to Bleach and I soon bored of it and left it unplayed for years. Bleach, and Sliver, still get played every so often, but not Nevermind. Maybe the way grunge became a fashion statement, a commodity, something for the dumb masses, maybe that turned me off in my snobbier minded younger mind, haha. Then I think Screamadelica came along, and that took me off on all sorts of different adventures.

It's pretty cool that the 'alternative' kids of today still find Nirvana to be their outsider music. Makes me laugh in a way because Nirvana have actually become the mainstream face of alternative music over the years. I can imagine that Nevermind sits happily in some collections amongst a bit of Dido, Coldplay, Keane, Phil Collins, Oasis.......and why not.

Not sure where I went with this post but hey ho............

and yeah, Pavement?? Not got one record by them, couldn't hum one tune, totally passed me by.
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by BzaInSpace »

jadams501 wrote:... I suppose I really idolized Kurt Cobain at a certain age, and then after I read Heavier Than Heaven and learned more about the man and not the deliberately invented "damaged John Lennon of the 90s," I've felt a compulsion to debunk the myth. I think Kurt the songwriter was an extraordinary talent -- but Kurt the man was far more flawed than most...
Heavier That Heaven was certainly better than the face-saving propaganda that was Come As You Are. However, it's biggest flaw was the real lack of writing about the goddamn MUSIC which is all that really matters...in the end.
It's also a very sad book, particularly the end chapters. Scary shit!

However - have you happened to read Nirvana - The True Story by Everett True? I highly recommend it, lots of untold stuff and despite his somewhat, er, excitable style he talks a lot about the music. (Lots great-but-weird facts - Kurt became obsessed with Elastica's 'Stutter' in the last days...) :shock:

I stand by the Leadbelly thing though. And Bowie. I think in 1993 his 'critical stock' was a low as it ever was.

I find the complaints about Nevermind's production fascinating and wholly unneccesary! In fact, if I didn't know better it sounds like the very complaint that Kurt himself made after it's release (probably for 'real punk rock' kudos) - then taken on by a million style-over-content journo's - which was then disseminated to become the default, 'alleged truth', soundbite about this album:
Any number of mindless automatons wrote: Nevermind
noun

Nirvana's second labum and major label debut for Geffen/DGC, great set of rock songs marred by radio-friendly, slick production...
Nope. Don't buy that at all. Having heard so many live takes and most of the early versions, rehearsals, demos etc absolutely NONE of them sound as good as they do on that record. A $600 Endino production might have ticked all the requisite, indie-schmindie, K-records-esque, production=evil toss but it wouldn't have sounded as good. At all.

Y'know what. I'm sure this argument was also used 30 years (or so) ago with regards to the Sex Pistols Nevermind The Bollocks. Who cares how many guitar tracks Steve Jones overdubbed? It's sounds fantastic to this day, big, widescreen rock production. No way do most of the contemporary records - as good as they are - sound anything as ace, with their tiny, trebley guitars and cardboard drums...

Johnny - get yourself In Utero, play loud. Best Nirvana album by a thousand country miles. As good as Bleach was there are a few songs from that era that shoulda been on there and it would have been far better. 'Paper Cuts'? Nah... :lol:
O P 8
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by johnnyboy »

BzaInSpace wrote: I find the complaints about Nevermind's production fascinating and wholly unnessary! In fact, if I didn't know better it sounds like the very complaint that Kurt made after's it's release - then taken by a million style-over-content journo's - which was then allowed to become the default, 'alleged truth', soundbite about this album:
But on the other hand they're totally necessary if you happen to believe it, like I do. Always have done. Can't force myself to like the production if I don't and I don't have that opinion just to gain indie street cred points either. The sound of Bleach is just more my scuzzy bag. I remember at the time it was a talking point but anyway, plenty of people obviously have your opinion, just look at how many it's sold and how popular it is. I'll happily live in the minority.

Might give In Utero a go one day but I'm in no rush. If I need a Nirvana moment I'll stick on Unplugged or catch it on TV one day just for that moment when Kurt opens his eyes and looks completely shocked (not sure if that's the right word) seeing the audience in front of him during Where Did You Sleep Last Night..........proper goose bumps going on for that song.
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by spzretent »

MODLAB wrote:
This is from Wikipedia.

Initially, DGC Records was hoping to sell 250,000 copies of Nevermind, which was the same level they had achieved with Sonic Youth's Goo.[21] However, the album's first single "Smells Like Teen Spirit" quickly gained momentum, thanks in part to significant airplay of the song's music video on MTV. As they toured Europe during late 1991, the band found that the shows were dangerously oversold, that television crews were becoming a constant presence onstage, and that "Smells Like Teen Spirit" was almost omnipresent on radio and music television.[22] By Christmas 1991, Nevermind was selling 400,000 copies a week in the US.[23] On January 11, 1992, the album reached number one on the Billboard album charts, displacing Michael Jackson's album Dangerous.[24] The album also topped the charts in numerous countries worldwide.[25] The month Nevermind reached number one, Billboard proclaimed, "Nirvana is that rare band that has everything: critical acclaim, industry respect, pop radio appeal, and a rock-solid college/alternative base."[26]


M
That was an absolute pipe dream. They had no reason to expect to sell 100,000 copies. 250,000 is Wiki hindsight. Many at Geffen thought it may be a bit much signing Nirvana. I know the guy who was instrumental in getting them signed(as well as Sonic Youth) but in true record industry fashion getting 0% of the credit. Only the out of touch folks at the top ever get/take credit.
I would say SLTS and subsequently Nevermind had as much of an effect on music as Never Mind The Bollocks. It not only broke down barriers it bulldozed them. And I am not a Nirvana fan. I only own Bleach. But being on the front lines at the time I was astonished how much Nevermind did.
In that vein I always preferred Screaming Trees, Mudhoney and Love Battery to Nirvana proving me wrong once again. But hey, I like what I like.
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by runcible »

spzretent wrote:
That was an absolute pipe dream. They had no reason to expect to sell 100,000 copies. 250,000 is Wiki hindsight. Many at Geffen thought it may be a bit much signing Nirvana. I know the guy who was instrumental in getting them signed(as well as Sonic Youth) but in true record industry fashion getting 0% of the credit. Only the out of touch folks at the top ever get/take credit.
I would say SLTS and subsequently Nevermind had as much of an effect on music as Never Mind The Bollocks. It not only broke down barriers it bulldozed them. And I am not a Nirvana fan. I only own Bleach. But being on the front lines at the time I was astonished how much Nevermind did.
Agreed, except if they had been watching the music scene carefully they would have realised they were sitting on top of the next musical explosion and there has been nothing quite like it since. I also agree with whoever said Nirvana spawned a whole load of terrible music (I think that was Barry) - rap metal remains the one I loathe the most.

I'm not ashamed to say I love Nirvana, I love Nevermind and I love Smells Like Teen Spirit. I'd been a big fan since before Bleach, then came 'Sliver' which sounded so damn good you could have eaten it. After that all these bootleg 7"s started leaking out just before Nevermind was released and which all sounded very exciting to my ears. I bought Nevermind at Rough Trade on the morning it came out and I still regard it as a milestone. Not necessarily for the music although I love all the songs, but for the way it changed the whole scene without the industry having any idea what was happening.

I'll also say I liked quite a few of the shoegaze bands although many became dull pretty quickly. I can hardly tell the difference between one Slowdive record and another and I thought they were really boring live, but Chapterhouse's early singles were superb and the 1st album has some decent moments. As for Spiritualized having any connection with it... the only one I can find is some shoegaze fans would have enjoyed Spiritualized. Jason has no interest in being part of any sort of scene whatsoever, and nor does Pete K - Spacemen 3 didn't give two fucks about what anyone thought and the early reviews were offensive at times. Cocteau Twins were going years before the shoegaze scene happened although I know people try and link them to it. The Cocteaus approach was very original and although their music might have appealed to shoegaze fans that's again about as much link as I can find.
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by jadams501 »

johnnyboy wrote:
BzaInSpace wrote: I find the complaints about Nevermind's production fascinating and wholly unnessary! In fact, if I didn't know better it sounds like the very complaint that Kurt made after's it's release - then taken by a million style-over-content journo's - which was then allowed to become the default, 'alleged truth', soundbite about this album:
But on the other hand they're totally necessary if you happen to believe it, like I do. Always have done. Can't force myself to like the production if I don't and I don't have that opinion just to gain indie street cred points either. The sound of Bleach is just more my scuzzy bag. I remember at the time it was a talking point but anyway, plenty of people obviously have your opinion, just look at how many it's sold and how popular it is. I'll happily live in the minority.
Sometimes the soundbite is true. All Things Must Pass is a brilliant, masterful album -- but Phil Spector's production is overblown. The Beatles needed each other to do their best work. Recurring is 1 Spectrum EP and 1 Spiritualized EP. Of course there's room to disagree, but the fact of the soundbite doesn't affect the truth of the statement.
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s & NIRVANA!!!

Post by MODLAB »

Still when I look back on it and read the history of it people/corporations caught it so fast.
It was nay 2-3 weeks later when they were asked to play at the Music awards if I remember correctly.
It was a scene that was I feel better moulded then most others. There is some writing about it I need to
search for it.


The Cockteau Twins created the wonderful world of dream pop and shoegaze. I have always enjoyed there music.



B,

M
Design.
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s & NIRVANA!!!

Post by runcible »

MODLAB wrote:Still when I look back on it and read the history of it people/corporations caught it so fast.
Oh yes - absolutely right. As soon as it took off the industry raced to catch up with it and then milked it for all it was worth. Sadly the first big casualty was the most significant contributor in the form of Kurt himself.
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Re: LAGWAFIS: Song #23 of the 1990s

Post by spzretent »

runcible wrote: Agreed, except if they had been watching the music scene carefully they would have realised they were sitting on top of the next musical explosion and there has been nothing quite like it since. I also agree with whoever said Nirvana spawned a whole load of terrible music (I think that was Barry) - rap metal remains the one I loathe the most.
It didn't matter if they thought they had their finger on the pulse. No one could have predicted what happened. Least of all a US major label record company. Nor Madison Avenue(advertising and fashion). It just exploded. And there was definitely a flipside to this. Limp Bizkit, Linkin Park, and a whole lot of shitty "grunge" bands that couldn't play.
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