Palestine kids solidarity gig

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Guerrilla
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Palestine kids solidarity gig

Post by Guerrilla »

Hello, long long long time no board contact, this is because I've been away spreading anti-sem1tic sentiment amongst whoever would listen...how gutted was I when I found out Arabs are also semites?!!!

Hope you are all well, 26dollar included. Did anyone go to the gig last weekend? It's Spiritualized, Primal Scream and one of the guys from the Beta Band, it's concert in solidarity with a charity for Palestinian youths...to quote sir bobby g:

Writing in the British daily The Guardian, Primal Scream's frontman Bobby Gillespie explained why he is involved:

"The truth is that most people can see what is taking place on the ground in the Middle East. And they can see who needs our support. Everyone knows who is under the boot and who's got the mouthful of broken glass.

"The Palestinians are a prisoner nation, refugees and exiles treated like ghosts. Now we want them to feel our solidarity," he wrote.

Gillespie pointed to the long tradition of British musicians' involvement in political causes.

"John Lennon used his name and money to oppose the Vietnam war and support the workers on strike. If Lennon were still on this earth, he'd be doing Palestine. In fact he'd be rocking the Brixton Academy tomorrow night."

Gutted I missed it...how was it?
will this do?
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Post by will this do? »

Hi. I remember you. Allergic to swearing, poor grasp of scientific philosophy.

Go to the 'gigs' bit for the Brixton chat - it's all in there (including, if memory serves, a raving Zionist. I think we saw him off though...).

(edit - beg yr. pardon, that was someone else - Syfuddin or something...long time ago)
Last edited by will this do? on Wed Oct 20, 2004 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guerrilla
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Post by Guerrilla »

hi will this do, hope you are also well...you don't remember me that well, the guy you're talking about was Sayfuddin or something...just noticed that as well, I'm reading through the posts
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Re: Palestine kids solidarity gig

Post by twentysixdollars »

Guerrilla wrote:how gutted was I when I found out Arabs are also semites?!!!
Specious and bullshit. The term "anti-semitism" was coined by a German intellectual whose intention was actually to legitimize it as an ideology. I think it is unfortunate that it remains the term in popular use to refer to jewhating. Furthermore I find unfortunate the implicit suggestion that the two types of bigotry are polarities that require choosing sides. Both anti-Arab sentiment and anti-jewish sentiment are bigotry. Each tends to be more fashionable in certain circles. It is a shame that the new right espouses paranoid, imperialist anti-Arab (and anti-Islamic) attitudes; and it is a shame that the new left treats jewhating with kid gloves. (The latter is sort of ironic since the bulk of North American communists were historically Jewish.)

But...it sounds like the gig was for a good cause though. A shame that Bill O'Reilly had to post in the Gigs section. I read Runcible's account of the zionist speech at his pal's wedding and I recall a similar experience, except it was a cousin's wedding, and the groom's father was South African and launched into a furious racist diatribe. About halfway through I - drunk but righteous (it was 1998 and I was newly unmarried) - stood up and called him a son of a bitch and was kicked out. A few people left and congratulated me, and apparently the speech was a real embarassment to his half of the family.

You're still an idiot, Guerilla.
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Post by Guerrilla »

nice to see you haven't lost your touch my friend...well done for the wedding speech thing, I would have congratulated you.

I was under the impression a semite was a decendant of Abraham...seeing as both Jews and Arabs consider themselves related to Abraham makes them all semites...I thought it was common knowledge.

To be honest, I'm quite gutted you didn't welcome me back 26$ :(
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Post by will this do? »

I must say, I thought that you were making a joke of what you perceive to be your reputation round these parts in your first post...sort of breaking the ice (and the reason I confused you with Sayfuddin). For a variety of reasons $26 is unable to see the joke.

It seems that contrary to Bobby Gillespie's assertion in the Guardian, the Middle East/Israel/Palestine thing isn't a simple matter at all. It is easy to say that the Israeli government and army and the 'settlers' etc etc are deliberately rushing towards the worst consequences, and the Palestinians are innocent victims of oppression, forced into desparate acts by circumstances. Trouble is it is equally easy to take the opposite view. Worse, many people can see both sides at the same time. As an effort to help the children, the cause of Saturdays concert must be seen as pretty unimpeachable.

There was an interesting aside in a comedy show I heard the other week, regarding religion and its contribution to war in history. It ran along the lines that all (most) of the long running conflicts of the last century have as a Post Colonial Partition as a common factor. Pakistan/India, Northern Ireland/Republic of Ireland, Israel/Palestine, are all at (various states of) war because of the British policy of dividing up the colonies upon exit and the idea was sugested that the different ethnic groups were getting along famously before we (or presumably the Ottomans or the Moguls ect ect) came along...the line was that wherever there's a warzone, there's invariably an Edwardian post box not far away.

On the oher hand, all that revelation does is make guilty white liberals feel more guilty (not that its MY fault), and that's JUST what the world needs, ain't it?
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Post by Guerrilla »

thanks will this do...I was making a joke, the last conversation I had with 26$ I remember being pleasant, it's a shame he forgot about it and only remembers the one with sayfuddin...

It true about the whole division thing...take India as an example...on their way out, the British turned the previously (relatively) peaceful Sikhs, Muslims & Hindus against eachother...it's the evils of colonialism, that's how the minority control the majority...turn em against their brothers...

I believe the Jewish people have been oppressed horribly over history...by the germans, french, spanish etc...but I think it's important to remember that to escape from european oppression, they found refuge in arab countries throughout north africa and the middle-east. This is because Islam in it's pure form demands Muslims respect and love non-believers (or believers of other religions)...take the Andalusia region of Spain when it was controlled by the Moors, Jews and Christians were in prominent positions in a peaceful society...I strongly believe they should have a homeland. And like you say, there is no black and white with this situation...there's no point saying 'Palestinian terror is killing Israeli children' when five times as many palestinian children have been killed by state-terrorism...which is worse, because at least Hamas say they want to 'push the jew back into the sea', whereas the Israeli government pretends they don't want to rid the region of Palestinians...There was no real hatred of jews in the arab world pre-Israel, despite what the Zionists will want us to believe.
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Post by will this do? »

Of course different people find humour in different things. You just have to put up with being misunderstood, if that's what happens.

A propos your point about the relative virtues of Hamas and Sharon, the same comedian (it was Jeremy Hardy) was riffing about crime (or other misdeeds) being better if it was 'honest'. His point was, it isn't. Or something...

Don't worry, the British Empire was just another one in the continuous line of Empires which have been a feature of human endeavour since we came down from the trees. It wasn't our fault, and it's over now (bar the obligations). There were and continue to be positives.

Just think, the so called First World War didn't end in 1918, or even 1945. It's still being fought, in Iraq, Afganistan, the Balkans, the Congo...
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Post by twentysixdollars »

See here, G, just because our last exchange was not unpleasant doesn't mean I'm turned around on my appraisal of you as a trendspotting penisjousting selfrighteous indiekiddie 'antiglobalisation' pseudomarxist, and thus an idiot. Trotting out the old dictionary definition of the word "semite" is a good example; I have read that in so many places, and generally speaking it is arab anti-semites that say it, presumably to shrug off criticism, even though such invocation of the term is in blatant ignorance of who coined it, and what it was coined to suggest; even its literal meaning (which suggests an ideological position contrary to that of the 'ancient semites', of which in the nineteenth century it was believed that Jews were exemplars), the fact that it is an attempt to legitimize a certain ancient sort of bigotry (only misogyny is older and still extant), should tip off even the thickest among us. There are words for bigotry against Arabs and Muslims (rather awkward ones, I confess, but still: Anti-Arab and Islamophobic). Anti-semitism is not one of them. Its connotations are specific and only idiots argue otherwise. And correct me if I'm wrong, but you've already argued it twice in this thread.

Regardless, my only comments on the Israel-Palestinian conflict are that the Palestinian people (although one must realize that the term 'Palestinian' actually applied to regional jews until 1948), which is to say, Arab Muslims living in the disputed territory called Palestine by some, deserve a country of their own in the region, that the oppression they've suffered is appalling and that the Israeli army and executive should be held accountable. However I think only an absolute fool would believe that conceding even a generous quantity of land to them would end terrorism against Israeli civilians, or diffuse anti-jewish sentiment in mainstream Islam (which, contrary to Guerilla's assertions, goes back - albeit generally in a benign state like that of, say, American anti-jew sentiment circa 1950 - to the time of the Prophet, who on more than one occasion advocated their slaughter when they refused to convert. Read your Hadith.) What Israel needs is a leadership more welcoming of Arab voices and more accomodating to Arab needs. (They could hardly be any less!)

Criticism of the state of Israel's policy is a-ok. In fact, when the state errs, it is the duty of any involved democrat to bitch about it. But criticism of its very right to exist is anti-semitism. No other country in the world has had to endure concerted outside demands that it be demolished. If Israel represents some sort of 'exception' to you (and I do not address anyone in particular), an exception to the rule by which no sovereign state must bow to international pressures and collapse its own sovereignty, one might reasonably inquire what makes it 'exceptional' by comparison to any other country. The answer you get is that it's run by jews.
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Post by will this do? »

twentysixdollars wrote: ... a certain ancient sort of bigotry (only misogyny is older and still extant)...
One of them Neanderthals moved in next door the other year (nice couple - the Piltdowns), but just one month later there were dozens of 'em, stinking the place out with their foul cooking, and daubing the walls...they say they're just like us, but I tell you - no daughter of MINE is gonna marry one.
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Post by Guerrilla »

twentysixdollars wrote:See here, G, just because our last exchange was not unpleasant doesn't mean I'm turned around on my appraisal of you as a trendspotting penisjousting selfrighteous indiekiddie 'antiglobalisation' pseudomarxist, and thus an idiot.
Well...you are quite judgemental aren't you? wrongly so as well. Despite the fact that your categorisation of me is, well, so far from the truth it's laughable, I still think you speak well. I could easily assume you're one of these neurotic pretentious New Yorkers who is oh-so-arrogant, but at your age it's too late to turn back on your beliefs, as this is the only thing that justifies you being middle-aged and single, but I could be completely wrong! so I'll reserve my suspitions.

If you don't want me on this board, just say so, and I'll leave. But please don't go saying things like that...I can understand why you would say that, because most people who talk like I do ARE insincere trendspotting ... indiekids...but not a single thing you have said up there applies to me. This was one of the things I argued most on our previous talks...but if that's the image of me you've got in your mind, and you're unwilling to change your opinion, well, I guess I am an idiot, holding you with a certain respect and expecting you to be honourable enough to return the favour.
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Post by BzaInSpace »

twentysixdollars wrote:
... trendspotting penisjousting selfrighteous indiekiddie 'antiglobalisation' pseudomarxist
Indiekiddie - ouch.

I'm reminded of the Busdriver's Bar scene from 'The Big Bus' :


"...Look Out! He's got a broken milk carton!"
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Post by SpacemanRob »

'Indiekid' is never an insult. Pumping a young girl full of bullets whilst she is already dead is evil. With his own soldiers upset and shouting for court-martial the deed must be truely evil. A government investigation finished in record time and no blame allocated.....
Bush teasing the vote and scared.....
Fucked up throughout.....
Equally a good friend of mine witnessed the bus explosion earlier in the year in Haifa with abject horror and can never describe the surreal devastation of the moment....
FOR FUCKS SAKE AMERICA WAKE UP AND VOTE KERRY!!!! However insignifigant this may seem it will stop the evil of Bush and his fucked up quasi-religisous nazis.

Man - 62 posts on rock n roll but man don't ignore this shite

So scared....


Rock on....
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Post by spzretent »

SpacemanRob wrote:FOR FUCKS SAKE AMERICA WAKE UP AND VOTE KERRY!!!! However insignifigant this may seem it will stop the evil of Bush and his fucked up quasi-religisous nazis.

So scared....


Rock on....
This is being taken as anything but insignificant in the US. As I was telling a very close English friend of mine today, I have seen more grassroots action than any election I can remember. I am 45 so i have been around for a few. I just hope what i see around here is playing out in communities all across the country. When there is this much action on behalf of a democratic candidate that always bodes well. If all these people with Kerry/Edwards lawn signs and bumper stickers vote that will be a very, very good sign November 2.

Cross your fingers. The longer Bush runs these total bullshit ads based on god knows whose numbers he is using the worse he looks :D
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Post by twentysixdollars »

Guerrilla wrote: I could easily assume you're one of these neurotic...
Sure.
...pretentious...
No argument there.
..New Yorkers...
Whoops. Right country though.
...who is oh-so-arrogant...
Shouldn't that be "who are oh-so-arrogant"?
...but at your age it's too late to turn back on your beliefs, as this is the only thing that justifies you being middle-aged and single...
I'm married, friend. As for middle-aged, well, I certainly hope not, because I'd have to die pretty young.

But I do miss being a teenager whose opinions could be changed on the basis of who I happened to be fucking. What broad tides of international policy have shifted by whatever American girl has deigned to bed Guerilla. For the good of the world, bring us your drunk and your self-righteous!
If you don't want me on this board, just say so, and I'll leave.
I could care less whether you come on this board or not. It's not my bedroom. You're fun (not to mention easy) to argue with. You're well-stocked with ill-informed opinion and subversive posturing. You read a lot of news on the internet. Your politics are a peculiar mix of xenophobia and an obsessive quest for the underdog. You're predictable, too: you tend to make an outrageous statement about an ethnic, social, or sovereign group, backpedal by saying that you have friends in said group and have no objection to them or their ideologies, respond to criticism of opportunism and dishonesty by trying to joke your way out of an argument, and then disappearing for six or eight months. Let's see ya tackle that one.
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Post by Guerrilla »

But I do miss being a teenager whose opinions could be changed on the basis of who I happened to be fucking. What broad tides of international policy have shifted by whatever American girl has deigned to bed Guerilla. For the good of the world, bring us your drunk and your self-righteous!
I really can't be arsed...You've obviously made up your mind on me. I'm 22...my parents came to england as asylum seekers...I know a lot that you will never know, because you will never live through it. I've had relatives blown up as innocent bystanders in suicide bombings, or shot because the Islamists back home don't agree with communist/socialist ideals...if you think who I'm fucking changes my political opinion, you're very naive. As is your prefered form of argument, you took me out of context. True, when I was 15 I didn't want to know any Americans. Being young and naive, I was painting you all with the same brush. The girl I went out with was a half cast american girl from a working family in detroit. She hated 'America' more than me - but she helped me put it in perspective...don't hate the sheep, hate the shepherd etc. You want to know why I hated america? and why I now still hate their government? because the 'home of the brave' was built with the blood of 15 MILLION africans (not to mention the 100 MILLION africans who were murdered to aquire these 15 MILLION slaves), and the foundations the 'land of the free' is built on is the bones of the native Red man, who not only had his land stolen, but was murdered in his MILLIONS. One method of mass murder was infection of blankets that he used, will small pox and similar things...don't know what you want to call it, but I call that germ warfare. The only nation to have used the A-bomb, and to have used weapons of mass destruction in just about every conflict (and there have been many!) it has been involved in - from napalm in vietnam (which left 3 MILLION vietnamese dead) to nuclear-based weapons in the first gulf war...and the American government brainwashes the simple american masses (which I know you are not a part of) into collectively believing my people are the terrorists...after we have been oppressed by America for so long, directly and indirectly (Israel). If you disaggree with anything I have said, you are either a) aware of the historical facts I have stated, but will lie before you let me get a point in b) in denial c) just plain ignorant.

I freely admit I was racist against americans - not because of some superiority complex, but because of the history (past and current) of the nation - and I can admit this because I saw the error of my ways, collective judgement is wrong. I learnt that when I was 15 - you all know what it's like being that age. I am honest with you, I believe that deserves respect.
I could care less whether you come on this board or not. It's not my bedroom. You're fun (not to mention easy) to argue with. You're well-stocked with ill-informed opinion and subversive posturing. You read a lot of news on the internet. Your politics are a peculiar mix of xenophobia and an obsessive quest for the underdog. You're predictable, too: you tend to make an outrageous statement about an ethnic, social, or sovereign group, backpedal by saying that you have friends in said group and have no objection to them or their ideologies, respond to criticism of opportunism and dishonesty by trying to joke your way out of an argument, and then disappearing for six or eight months. Let's see ya tackle that one.
hmmm...this is what I don't understand about you 26. You are so arrogant, so sure of yourself, but why? you rarely make a point worth reading. I'm easy to argue with? People, listen up - notice how 26 argues. Instead of saying something which will prove him RIGHT, he consistently tries to prove me WRONG...you argue in the typical way journalists or lawyers do (which I'll bet you are either one or the other), quoting two sentences I have said in completely different paragraphs/posts, and putting them together in a soundbite, out of context, for maximum effect. You try and soil my image by subtly dropping in words like xenophobia into most of your posts...you critice me for painting people with the same brush yet you have proven you are more guilty of this than me by assuming you know everything about me and my political leanings because of a few posts on a website...and you're so dishonest about it as well, because you pretend (and I believe you even convince yourself) you are the model of moral aloofness...and as for my friends...France colonised Algeria, and in our war of independence 1.5 million Algerians were murdered, in such horrible scenes with torture being standard. Old french generals have freely admitted their war crimes, and have never been brought to justice...I have seen the mess the french left on their way out, with the typical division of people which will this do mentioned earlier...my grandad was tortured, and I could tell you what was done to him, and you would not believe one human being could be so evil to another...and all Algeria got was freedom. Never any compensation, never any sick fucking french officials brought to justice...so am I supposed to now run around holding hand with french kids, forgiving the crimes of their parents and preaching 'love and unity!!'? do Jews run around with German kids with smiles on their faces? I have Israeli friends, french friends, american friends...who gives a fuck? my Israeli friends are pro-palestinian, or at least anti-zionist. I'm not a lefty or a righty or a communist, capitalist, islamist, integrationist or pacifist. Do you think I go away for 6-8 months to think of things to say to you? I argue/debate with dozens and dozens of people from all backgrounds, all opinions. You are one of the few I consider not worth arguing with because you will teach me nothing, you're petty as fuck, unneccessarily offensive and overly judgemental. You say I am dishonest and an opportunist when this is what annoys me most about your posts. Your reply? let me guess, nitpicking at the petty mistakes I've made and passing this off as a reply. Well let me give you something to start with; from several posts in which I have consistently tried to express my respect for you as an opponent, I have been able to come to an informed, educated deduction - you are a complete wanker! now go tell everyone how I've proved all my arguments invalid, as I resorted to petty name-calling.
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Post by runcible »

The problem, Mr G, is that at one time you issued a death threat on this board and, as far as I am aware, remain the only one to have done so. You tried to turn it into a joke but it kind of startled me at the time. You also invited a pretty rabid type in the form of Sayfudin here to argue with a few posters ($26 mainly) and then tried to distance yourself from this character and apparently still do so. The aggression shown in that particular jousting match wasn't healthy and you were at the core of it. Your opponents didn't resort to what came across as occasionally hysterical reactions from your side.

Personally I don't get into the politics too much here as its not really the right environment. Sure I'm against Bush, the Iraq war and a great deal of American foreign policy, but I'm not sure how saying so on this message board will change anything. I listen to what my American friends think of how their country is run - that's a better method of getting a point of view outside the UK news coverage.

Finally $26 isn't American, he's from Canada.
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Post by Guerrilla »

Yeah...I remember the 'death-threat'. I said, in the face of people accusing me of threatening sprzent, a sarcastic comment about how I would fly all the way over to america just to kick his arse...something to do with me asking which part of detroit he's from, as that's where my ex came from, and was just exploring common ground...I don't know if you all missed the joke or if you intentionally chose to use is as a way of ignoring all the good points I made...don't really care really.

as for sayfuddin...I didn't invite him, I went to another board to try and rally some support from people on there who generally aggree with my point of view...I was annoyed when the only one who came over here was him...I distance myself from him the same way I distance myself from hamas...I don't believe the jew should be pushed back into the sea.
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Post by runcible »

Guerrilla wrote:Yeah...I remember the 'death-threat'. I said, in the face of people accusing me of threatening sprzent, a sarcastic comment about how I would fly all the way over to america just to kick his arse...something to do with me asking which part of detroit he's from, as that's where my ex came from, and was just exploring common ground...I don't know if you all missed the joke or if you intentionally chose to use is as a way of ignoring all the good points I made...don't really care really.
Wrong. I just re-read your comments and the threat followed some plain old-fashioned prejudice - I can't see the humour myself. The words 'if I ever find you, I will kill you!!' came after a few people, myself included, berated you for writing what still looks like prejudiced comments about Americans. I should also add that you said the following:

I don't applaud september the 11th...but I don't feel bad at all.
The murder of innocents, no matter who they are - Palestinian children or New York business workers - makes me feel REALLY fucking bad, as it damn well should do, AND any other human being with a shred of decency should feel the same.
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Post by Guerrilla »

why don't you print a link for the whole thread, that way people reading out-of-context one liners like those you mentioned can see the pages and pages of debate surrounding them.

You know damn well what I meant by that comment, well done for choosing one that would have such an impact with people who aren't aware of that argument...I can't be arsed to go into it, but as runcible knows I do feel for the victims 0f 9/11, no-one is innocent but I know better than most that no-one deserves to die like that, having lost family to terror.

Since I before I could walk I've grown up on a diet of TRUTH, massacres world wide with bullets, missiles, wmd and chemical weapons with 'Made in the US of A' written on them...never justice, never compensation...just fuck em up, take what they want, leave and label them terrorists...get to a stage where you take unjustice as standard, and you no longer want it, you'd be happy enough just bringing the war to the people who left the third world raped and in an irrepairable state. Do you honestly think death of innocent civilians phases me anymore? All you do is talk, all you have are words. I don't believe in words, I believe in deeds. The west leaves the rest of the world in an incredible mess and then cries murder when we aren't ready to suddenly forget our history, and prance around like fairies talking about love and peace!! when the west begs for forgiveness, pays alot of money to repair what they ruined in the third world, stops stealing our resources and oil in africa, asia and the middle east, as well as admitting to it's crimes against humanity will we be happy. Right now they're making us BEG to have even a taste of what they've got.

An example of my logic - the world mourns for the couple of hundred of children of Beslan (can't remember the exact number)...I'm still busy mourning the 32,000 children murdered by russian troops in Chechnya.

You will never understand, as your countries have ALWAYS been the oppressor.
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Post by SpaceLine »

Just a friendly suggestion for you sir - spend a bit less time writing up your posts here and spend the time you save reading and listening. I say this only because you mentioned you are 22 and while I applaud your interest in things of this nature the quality and validity to your posts are severely lacking. You're really no different than the man you probably hate most, GW Bush; so far gone in your logic and reality that to any sane and educated person you're not even worth paying the slightest attention to. In fact, I think it's very gracious the other posters here to have put up with your drivel for so long now. Best of luck.
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Post by runcible »

Guerrilla wrote:why don't you print a link for the whole thread, that way people reading out-of-context one liners like those you mentioned can see the pages and pages of debate surrounding them.
Granted:
http://www.spiritualized.com/message/vi ... &start=105

Having re read this I can't see how it will possibly cast you in a better light! Its classic anti-American vitroil for the most part and pretty offensive in places.

What exactly DID you mean by that comment? I would struggle to justify such a statement. I can't link that quote with you saying you 'do feel bad for the victims of 9/11'. I feel bad every time I hear of suicide bombers, just as I do when I hear of Israeli tanks churning up the refugee camps. There are people doing completely and utterly horrible things to each other everywhere - people ARE horrible. Almost of all these events are caused by some kind of prejudice, and while I would never accuse you of being guilty of such atrocities your bigoted comments are coming from an angle not dissimilar..

When you speak of deeds can you ellaborate a little please. What kind of deeds? Deeds such as someone heroic like Saddat was attempting, or deeds such as al Quaida implement? And what history is the west asking 'you' to forget? Personally I think you've set yourself up for a fall. You constantly talk about 'you' and 'we' and seem determined to create some kind of divide. Then, as $26 pointed out, you take a couple of backwards steps and come out with the same kind of argument from a slightly different angle.

Oppression is a difficult thing to sum up. I've not been oppressed in the way you put it. My dad was shot to bits by the Germans in WW2, spent quite a while in a war prison and was eventually used as a hostage by the Germans and was actually shown his own death warrant as the war finished. I can relate to that kind of oppression although it didn't happen to me. If you are saying 'you can have no opinion as it hasn't happened to you' I can dismiss your whole argument - my dad would want me to have an opinion about what happened to him in the war - he'd be appalled if I didn't.
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Post by spzretent »

What probably irks most message board dwellers is you only post on this one political issue. You must be somewhat of a music fan if you have found this board. To my knowledge you have never once posted anything music related.
It must be an awful burden to carry around hundreds of years of oppression. The weight of all that...ouch!
I think most of us get your point and I think you got ours. You can run down the history of American injustice. The point is to try and move on and hopefully change the course. Thats all we can do.
While your death threat freaked out some on this board it didn't phase me. It isn't the first and it wont be the last. The internet is a great place for anonymous threats. Anyone can type those words.
Guerrilla
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Post by Guerrilla »

You're all right. All I am doing is taking a few steps back and rewording my arguments. I am saying the same thing over and over. But why? because you lot repeatedly do the easy thing - pounce like weasels and use petty 'loophole lawyer' style tactics to take my argument apart...Like I said, it's easy for you to say 'we' should move on and get over it, but when the west is the one who's terrorised the east for so long, surely the west should take the first steps towards creating justice and peace...instead they label us terrorists and drop bombs on us. What I hate most about arguing with adults is that you think, being young, anything I say can be dismissed as uneducated and naive. You all know more about politics than I do, because I don't give a fuck for politics and diplomacy. You're the one who are naive believing that the only important thing is peace...do you not know about pride, honour, history?

spzretent - if you want to believe I threatened you and missed the sarcasm (or chose to miss it), well that's your call, I don't really care.

spaceline - well done for joining the 'lets just say he's bigoted, naive and stupid' bandwagon, hope you got a comfortable seat, but I'm assuming you'll wanted to stand, as your words might as well be coming out of your arse. Oh and by the way, I can tell by the way you talk you are probably like Hitler. You sick racist.

runcible - sorry to hear about your dad. And yes, everything the west has done to the rest of the world is a heavy burden on my shoulders...that's why I'm so angry, having been born to right all the wrongs of history! right now I'm trying to make the west pay for what they did to the Aboriginies in australia, but I'll be coming for you next. (as you all seem to be...how can I put it...thick, that was called sarcasm). In primary school, arguments were cut short by petty name calling. It seems to me in the grown up world, debates are not about what the person says, but how he says it and how to be opportunist enough to use his own words, out of context, to rip him apart...would you rather I spoke in PC terms such as 'the collective western governments and their supporters' instead of 'you'?

listen...this is going to keep going and going and going....truth be told, I'm not racist, I love people, I hate to see people die. But I am not as naive as some people in believing that there can be peace without sacrifice. I just don't think it's right that the oppressors aren't will to do the sacrificing. I know oppression is not about race. I hate that western governments sit on a moral high horse when they, throughout history and even today, terrorise other countries for reasons such as oil, land and water. I know I don't word my arguments in the whitewashed PC way you're used to, and I know my views come across a bit radical to you lot. What I hate most about you lot is the way you dismiss me as irrelevant, thinking this is a valid retort. And what about the good points I make? why do you all constantly ignore them? I don't think it's worth us continuing this line of conversation, you've all made you're minds up. I know that you can't change things (on a large scale) with love, it takes war, hate and murder. This is tragic, but that's how it is. If you think otherwise, you're living in a dreamland. I just think it's not right that the wrong people are dying. You all talk about how much you hate to hear people die...that's nice. so do I. but it's the deeds that are remembered...protests, activism etc. etc. In fact I'm not even sure what we're arguing about here...so I for one am willing to call it a day and kill this thread. I know there's going to be a few posts, I'm sure 26$ will be one of them. But I'll stop posting, if I do post in the future, it will be music related.

Peace to all,

G
u_nderscore
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Post by u_nderscore »

here's my bit...direct from dreamland...

fuck pride.

fuck honour.

fuck history.

peace is the most important thing.
you can change things with love.

end of story.
SpaceLine
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Post by SpaceLine »

In primary school, arguments were cut short by petty name calling.
Oh and by the way, I can tell by the way you talk you are probably like Hitler. You sick racist.
Once again, I suggest you take some time off to read and educate yourself. Or leave.
runcible
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Post by runcible »

G - that last post comes across much better, apart from the insults handed out to a few. The reason is simple - you haven't gone for the anti-US stance as quickly as before (now going for 'the west' in general). Its SO easy to just say 'fuck the USA' but there has to be more substance than that for you to get away with such a generalised point of view.

And you ARE taking backwards steps and repeating yourself. You rejoin discussions here in the same manner each time, which is to be very conciliatory and then work your way back to where you were before. 'We' pounce because your points come across as being bandwagonesque-ly prejudice against America. Have you thought about the millions of people in the US who are totally against Bush and what American has done abroad? There are many. You've never mentioned them - its so 'us against them' with you and no situation is as simple as that.

Your point about Australia is both right and wrong. The oppression in the past 200 years is alarming but Australia is very conscious of its past. How exactly are the west going to 'pay' for what they've done to the Aborigines? By leaving Australia? By withdrawing the funding given to exposing Aborgine art and culture? By stopping the returning of land to the Aborigine people and the preservation of sacred sites in the country? Great steps have been made in Australia to right the wrongs of the past and promote the original Aborigine ideals. Every country has its learning process - look at South Africa. It doesn't happen overnight. Australia gave Uluru back to the Aborigines in 1987, one of the most significant gestures of its kind in the history of the country. There are still many problems there but progress is being made. Same in New Zealand where racism is a bigger issue than Australia. There is no clear historical definition as to whether it was the Moriori tribe who originally inhabited the country or whether these were simply related to the Maoris. One thing that is true is that the Moriori population was devastated by the Maoris who arrived from the North Island and either killed or enslaved large numbers. That's oppression in my book. I guess you'll have to have a go at the Maoris next.

You've made a few good points G, but your posts are littered with bits which can be taken as offensive at best and idiotic at worst. To make statements like you're now 'a liberal open-minded anti-American' makes you look very stupid indeed. You'll have read the barbed post by that Mudskipper bozo - his views echoed yours, but from a Zionist point of view. He was flamed in the same way you were by regulars here and rightly so. You words are full of hate, anger and violence if you read the original thread which you asked me to post. The more I read it the more you must regret asking me to put the link up. Its just prejudice, plain and simple. I think I've taken a reasonably moderate point of view here. Lord knows what 26 will do when he wakes up.

By the way the thing about love has some truth. The problem is that not enough people love - if the majority of people did want to change the world through love it would happen, but they don't.
Last edited by runcible on Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
spzretent
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Post by spzretent »

G:

Yeah. Sorry. I missed the humor in your death threat.
Lace up your boots. You have a long, long fight ahead of you.
runaway
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Post by runaway »

Musicians ought to stick with what they know best; making music, doing blow and fucking teenage girls.
spzretent
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Post by spzretent »

runaway wrote:Musicians ought to stick with what they know best; making music, doing blow and fucking teenage girls.
very profound.
twentysixdollars
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Post by twentysixdollars »

For someone who once accused the jews of "playing the Holocaust card", G, you've also appointed yourself the righteous martyr of your "people". You say
Guerrilla wrote: You will never understand, as your countries have ALWAYS been the oppressor.
Which is fine and dandy, but as the oppressor I guess I forfeit my sole entry into the aggrieved minority, which is to say by swiping the Holocaust card and walking around Saskatchewan yelling at people named Schneider.
Guerrilla wrote: it takes war, hate and murder
Spoken like a true lunatic. Ladies and gentlemen, our esteemed colleague's twelve-step program for restoring peace to the world:

1) USA outta Iraq (sounds good so far)
2) Complete tolerance for Easterners in USA, Europe (yeah! Nifty!)
2) USA outta the whole middle east (er, still sounds OK)
3) Palestinians get a state (great, sure, yes, it's about time)
4) Palestinian state gets really big (er, OK)
5) That state includes Israel (er)
6) Jews outta Israel (...into the sea?)
7) USA outta the entire East (...OK)
8) Especially the American Jews
9) Australians outta Australia (back to old Blighty, then?)
10) Russians outta Russia (damn straight)
11) Americans outta America (handing it back to the natives, then)
12) USA, Jews, British provide reparations for ruining everyone's lunch
13) USA, Jews, British colonize Banff
14) Birthrates of the above so low that they disappear off the face of the earth
15) All Eastern countries - Islamic, Hindu, Buddhist, African, socialist, capitalist, secular, scriptural - gather into giant bear hug

This is of course predicated on the various Islamic, Hindu, Buddhist, African, socialist, capitalist, secular, not secular countries putting a stop to their various beefs with one another, but, hey, they're the East, and if the Western oppressors are turfed then I suppose they'll have nothing left to argue about.
runaway
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Post by runaway »

spzretent wrote:
runaway wrote:Musicians ought to stick with what they know best; making music, doing blow and fucking teenage girls.
very profound.
I meant to say Rock musicians...
twentysixdollars
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Post by twentysixdollars »

There's another thing that gets my dander up as regards Guerrilla's rhetoric. He seems to be suggesting that the Western mechanisms of oppression are the East's only (or primary) source of internal schism and that removing Western influences will mollify all conflicts in disputed territories. As a result he presents absurd arguments that he seems to legitimately feel will put a stop to insoluble problems: he excuses terrorism of some kinds but not others, he advocates "freedom fighters" of one stripe but not another. All of this is absurd: removing western influences, as my last rather facetious post opined, will do nothing to massage peace between eastern nations when they find plenty of reasons to hate one another without 'our' intervention. (And by 'our' I mean that of the International Jewish Conspiracy.)

If there's a problem that is not insoluble in the east, it is structural gender and sexual inequality. Say what you will about American colonialism, and the raping and pillaging of nations, but it seems that the whole of the antiamerican contingent is overlooking the modern east's rotten record of treating women and sexual minorities (gays and lesbians, bisexuals, intersexuals, transgendered individuals, etc.). The west's record isn't spotless (in fact, when you get right down to it, it's awful), but it's nowhere near the premedieval level it's at in the middle east. There is a tangible (and also psychological) raping and pillaging of women in the middle east especially that can only be put an end to by means of further modernization. (To say nothing of legal systems that make refugees, prisoners, or corpses of innocent homosexuals and bisexuals.) Leaving the region to fester won't solve the problem, although idiotic, racist foreign policy along the lines of Bushism or Putinism isn't the sort of involvement that anyone had in mind: it fosters extremism. But the absence of the west from the middle east would be as egregious a failure of international diplomacy as its continuing exertion of violence there.

So, the New York Dolls anyone?
runcible
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Post by runcible »

twentysixdollars wrote:
So, the New York Dolls anyone?
Fuck yeah - they wouldn't have lasted five minutes in Damascus without being oppressed.
poppy
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Post by poppy »

Sorry is this The Clash's message board or Spiritualized's? Hate to break the news but Ladies & Gentlemen We Are Floating In Space was not a political commentary on the end of the cold war space race. Go have a joint and listen to some records man.
spzretent
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Post by spzretent »

poppy wrote:Sorry is this The Clash's message board or Spiritualized's? Hate to break the news but Ladies & Gentlemen We Are Floating In Space was not a political commentary on the end of the cold war space race. Go have a joint and listen to some records man.
Oh. I thought this was the Red Wedge site. Sorry :oops:
a beautiful noise
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Post by a beautiful noise »

i like this woman! welcome aboard matey!



xxxshonnxxx
lemhawklord
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Post by lemhawklord »

To Poppy,
when hate and war is around, the last thing you need to do is smoke a joint
If you want to get into it you've got to get out of it
BzaInSpace
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LEMHAWKLEMHAWKLEMHAWKKKKKKKKK......

Post by BzaInSpace »

Bullshit Lemmy.

As U_nderscore suggests, the FIRST thing that's needed is a little bit of love.

To *ahem* toke the pain away.

What should we do Lemmy? What's your solution?
Mustard
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Post by Mustard »

26$ - Stay the f**k out of Banff! Make sure you stay here, at least we can keep an eye on you.

I'm up for a bear hug though.
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