Osama
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Osama
Ok. i'll start this.
I clearly remember my emotions on 9-11. Sitting at my kitchen table, tears streaming down my face, wondering how on earth there are people who justify the killing of thousands of people for the crime of either going to work or rescuing them. I just didn't understand it. At all.
Then I started to get emails from all around the world asking how I was doing? Obviously knowing how terrifying and horrible this moment was. This made me even more emotional. A few of the emails were from message board members. And here I am in Detroit, pretty far removed from NYC, Washington or Shanksville Pennsylvania.
The videos would appear with Osama Bin Laden mocking us.
Then he started his reign of terror around the world. Madrid 2004, London 7-7-2005, Detroit NW Flight 253 2009. This one in particular hits home as an old friend of mine from Holland was seated the row behind the underwear bomber. Thankfully he was able to tell me the entire story this past February.
Which brings us to tonight. I am not the type of person who would celebrate the death of someone. But this is different.
Kind of like cutting the head off a snake. I know someone will step in assume control of al Qaeda but give us this moment. Give this president credit for doing something the two previous presidents could not.
Being patient, and having the balls to make the right move at the right time.
What a way to start the week.
I clearly remember my emotions on 9-11. Sitting at my kitchen table, tears streaming down my face, wondering how on earth there are people who justify the killing of thousands of people for the crime of either going to work or rescuing them. I just didn't understand it. At all.
Then I started to get emails from all around the world asking how I was doing? Obviously knowing how terrifying and horrible this moment was. This made me even more emotional. A few of the emails were from message board members. And here I am in Detroit, pretty far removed from NYC, Washington or Shanksville Pennsylvania.
The videos would appear with Osama Bin Laden mocking us.
Then he started his reign of terror around the world. Madrid 2004, London 7-7-2005, Detroit NW Flight 253 2009. This one in particular hits home as an old friend of mine from Holland was seated the row behind the underwear bomber. Thankfully he was able to tell me the entire story this past February.
Which brings us to tonight. I am not the type of person who would celebrate the death of someone. But this is different.
Kind of like cutting the head off a snake. I know someone will step in assume control of al Qaeda but give us this moment. Give this president credit for doing something the two previous presidents could not.
Being patient, and having the balls to make the right move at the right time.
What a way to start the week.
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Re: Osama
I just hope it doesn't blow the lid off in terms of a some massive terrorist response. But in terms of the demise of someone responsible for the deaths of thousands and thousands of people it's very good news for sure. Some other maniac will take his place of course.
Re: Osama
As expected, reactions to this news vary wildly. Someone posted on Facebook this morning questioning whether or not the "eye-for-an-eye" approach was the right thing to do, which I found fairly ridiculous, but that's just me. Then again, the the fact that there is a large group of people in USA t-shirts having a big party in the streets of DC seems unbearably tasteless.
Re: Osama
i dont think you can live in fear of retaliation. otherwise thet terrorists have won. sometimes you just have to be pro-active and get the job done. and not fuck it up as the two previous presidents did.runcible wrote:I just hope it doesn't blow the lid off in terms of a some massive terrorist response. But in terms of the demise of someone responsible for the deaths of thousands and thousands of people it's very good news for sure. Some other maniac will take his place of course.
today is my day off. I just got out of bed. I have been watching the MSNBC coverage since 5 am.
This is proving to be very emotional again. Watching all the interviews with 9-11 victims families.
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Re: Osama
only took them 10 years, 2 wars and over 100,000 deaths to get him
Re: Osama
I realize that, And that sucks but what were they supposed to do? Let al Qaeda continue their reign of terror?
The whole Iraq fiasco lies at the feet of Bush/Cheney. There was no reason to go there. Trust me, people here wish they would have kept their focus on al Qaeda and not Iraq. But after 9-11 the was a response needed.
The whole Iraq fiasco lies at the feet of Bush/Cheney. There was no reason to go there. Trust me, people here wish they would have kept their focus on al Qaeda and not Iraq. But after 9-11 the was a response needed.
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Re: Osama
Im not anti American, i have a lot of American friends, i love American music/art/culture etc etc and i dont want to talk politics on here , ive avoided it in the past because i thought it would cause friction or bad vibes or arguments but i just had to say something about this, i just think what a waste of time, money and more importantly lives, and now that he is dead, i just dont think it will change things much, there will still be terrorist attacks from that side, and there will still be spurious reasons to go to war from the other side
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Re: Osama
I personally feel, nobody has won. It will be a total propaganda blitz for both sides of the tape.
I still have a tape with the towers burning from when my other half was in NYC.
I agree Solarflarez.
B,
M
I still have a tape with the towers burning from when my other half was in NYC.
I agree Solarflarez.
B,
M
Design.
Re: Osama
I didn't take your comment as anti-American. I am just giving you my opinion/perspective. As Sonic and Red Krayloa sang War Sucks. It does. I'm not sure this was about winning because clearly nobody has. But listening to the 9-11 families this morning I feel better for them. Nothing will bring back their loved ones. Nor any of the military from any country either.solarflarez wrote:Im not anti American, i have a lot of American friends, i love American music/art/culture etc etc and i dont want to talk politics on here , ive avoided it in the past because i thought it would cause friction or bad vibes or arguments but i just had to say something about this, i just think what a waste of time, money and more importantly lives, and now that he is dead, i just dont think it will change things much, there will still be terrorist attacks from that side, and there will still be spurious reasons to go to war from the other side
If there is a silver lining here at least it was Obama who handled this and hopefully the rest of the country will give him the credit he deserves. Until Fox news spins it differently.
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Re: Osama
Maybe a little graphic for daytime UK tv, or night time!
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Re: Osama
any images of dead osama that are out there atm are fake
they haven't released the pic's yet as they are too graphic:
they haven't released the pic's yet as they are too graphic:
This from their senior White House correspondent, Jake Tapper:
"There's no doubt it's him," says a US official who has seen the pictures and also reminds us that OBL was 6'4".
The argument for releasing them: to ensure that the public knows and can appreciate that he's dead. There is of course skepticism throughout the world that the US government claim that it killed bin Laden is true.
The argument against releasing the pictures: they're gruesome. He has a massive head wound above his left eye where he took bullet, with brains and blood visible.
In July 2003, the US government released photographs of Saddam Hussein's dead sons Uday and Qusay Hussain but not until after they'd been touched up by a mortician, making them look not quite real.
gonna burn brightly
for a while
for a while
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Re: Osama
how grusome can it be? wasn't he killed by a single bullet to the head or is that single bullet determined to be the one bullet that actually killed him and he was shot hell (literally)?
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Re: Osama
Lets not forget that Tony Blair followed Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld and Powell to Iraq and he too is as guilty as the others.solarflarez wrote:only took them 10 years, 2 wars and over 100,000 deaths to get him
After September 11 happened and we had proof that it was Al Qaeida who did it and that the Taliban were in support or at least allowing Al Qaeida to exist within Afghanistan there is NO country in our shoes that would not have gone into Afghanistan. Iraq, however, is a completely different matter and that should not be forgotten nor forgiven. But, Blair too has blood on his hands and should also be ashamed for his actions.
More than anything, I think the news of Osama's death is significantly symbolic to all of us in the Western world, but in particular, here in America. Al Qaeida will still exist possibly becoming even more defragmented into radical splinter cells in outlaw places like Somalia and Yemen. And somebody will no doubt attempt to rise up in ranks and attempt to take control. I am sure we will also see some idiots try to avenge Bin Laden's death. All of that said, the death of Bin Laden, as it was said earlier is like the head of the snake being severed. As public enemy #1 Bin Laden's death is a defining moment in history and for President Obama.
Regarding the release of pictures...is that really necessary? Who the hell wants to see a photo of somebody's face/head blown apart? I saw the images inside the compound and there was a lot of blood. Releasing images would be classless and inappropriate.
Re: Osama
you can bet they will leak at some point. I have a weak stomach for things like that.
I know there was video of Daniel Pearl's beheading. No way I would ever want to see something like that.
I also found it interesting that the earlier, non edited, footage of the World Trade Center you clearly saw many people who jumped to their deaths. At first I thought it was paper flying out of the offices then you noticed people in pairs, groups. It was sickening.
The French brothers who were filming a documentary about a firehouse in NYC and wound up filming quite a bit in the lobby of the World Trade Center had to make mention of the constant thumping and crashing above them. They said it was people who had jumped and would not film any of it.
I know there was video of Daniel Pearl's beheading. No way I would ever want to see something like that.
I also found it interesting that the earlier, non edited, footage of the World Trade Center you clearly saw many people who jumped to their deaths. At first I thought it was paper flying out of the offices then you noticed people in pairs, groups. It was sickening.
The French brothers who were filming a documentary about a firehouse in NYC and wound up filming quite a bit in the lobby of the World Trade Center had to make mention of the constant thumping and crashing above them. They said it was people who had jumped and would not film any of it.
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Re: Osama
apparently 1 bullet to the head and 1 bullet to chest chest, not gruesome i suspect
Ayman al-Zawahiri was no. 2, he is now no. 1 most likely,, he is probably worse than bin laden
Ayman al-Zawahiri was no. 2, he is now no. 1 most likely,, he is probably worse than bin laden
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Re: Osama
Yeah I thought that. Not quite the same as people on the West Bank celebrating 9/11 at the time but that's how it will be spun to many.TheWarmth wrote: Then again, the the fact that there is a large group of people in USA t-shirts having a big party in the streets of DC seems unbearably tasteless.
And Redcloud is quite right - Blair should be ashamed at his part in the mess in Iraq. It's curious that a peaceful (anti-Iraq war) demonstration by over a million people in London meant nothing to the guy running the country.
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Re: Osama
runcible wrote:
And Redcloud is quite right - Blair should be ashamed at his part in the mess in Iraq. It's curious that a peaceful (anti-Iraq war) demonstration by over a million people in London meant nothing to the guy running the country.
and all the other minor countries that made deals for weapons and monetary packages etc. Poland, Romania, Ukraine, Spain etc...
war just makes me sick.
M
Design.
Re: Osama
The whole irony that the 'west' is fighting the Taliban after effectively arming them is ridiculous too. I'm sure many people reading here have thought the same about the Libyan rebels - a few years down the line will the 'west' end up fighting them if Gaddafi is ousted?
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O$ama, Obama and that
Call me a leftie or an idealist, I don't care, but I'm drawn to these sentiments:
‎"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only Light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only Love can do that"
My immediate thoughts to the 'news' that The Phantom Menace has been vanquished in some James Bond-esque shoot out was...why now?
Could the US Governement's Military Industrial Complex not have just used the vast war machine in the beginning to simply kill him to bits in Pakistan where they knew he was, instead of setting alight the Middle East first for the last ten years?
Was it a good day for this news? In Britain we have the spectacle of the Satanic (allegedly!) Royal Wedding to cheer everyone up - seemingly America would settle for nothing less than the destruction of Bogeyman No. 1.
I'm more interested in what's happening outside The Matrix than this drip-fed bullshit.
And Warmth - what you said.
Sorry Alan...
‎"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only Light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only Love can do that"
My immediate thoughts to the 'news' that The Phantom Menace has been vanquished in some James Bond-esque shoot out was...why now?
Could the US Governement's Military Industrial Complex not have just used the vast war machine in the beginning to simply kill him to bits in Pakistan where they knew he was, instead of setting alight the Middle East first for the last ten years?
Was it a good day for this news? In Britain we have the spectacle of the Satanic (allegedly!) Royal Wedding to cheer everyone up - seemingly America would settle for nothing less than the destruction of Bogeyman No. 1.
I'm more interested in what's happening outside The Matrix than this drip-fed bullshit.
And Warmth - what you said.
Sorry Alan...
O P 8
Re: Osama
meh. one puppet down, infinite more to go
'raging and weeping are left on the early road
now each in his holy hill
the glittering and hurting days are alomst done
then let us compare mythologies
i have learned my elaborate lie
of soaring crosses and poisened thorns'
now each in his holy hill
the glittering and hurting days are alomst done
then let us compare mythologies
i have learned my elaborate lie
of soaring crosses and poisened thorns'
Re: Osama
Who likes war? Except those who directly benefit from it ie: Dick Cheney.
But sometines its necessary as history has proven.
If no one ever responded to attacks we'd all be speaking German.
And Barry, while I respect your opinion, in this case I was happy that Bin Laden got what was coming to him. I dont like the cost, the lives lost, but I an happy he is not on this earth anymore.
9-11 cut such a deep wound in this country. I'm not saying America has the market cornered on anger but it was this generation's first attack on home soil and it was a BIG ONE. That is part of the reason for those spontaneous celebrations in Washington DC and New York. Most of those who were there were kids which 9-11 was the defining moment in their chidlhood.
Not that it makes it right.
But sometines its necessary as history has proven.
If no one ever responded to attacks we'd all be speaking German.
And Barry, while I respect your opinion, in this case I was happy that Bin Laden got what was coming to him. I dont like the cost, the lives lost, but I an happy he is not on this earth anymore.
9-11 cut such a deep wound in this country. I'm not saying America has the market cornered on anger but it was this generation's first attack on home soil and it was a BIG ONE. That is part of the reason for those spontaneous celebrations in Washington DC and New York. Most of those who were there were kids which 9-11 was the defining moment in their chidlhood.
Not that it makes it right.
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.
That's a real scary thought - that 'it' was the defining moment of their childhood.spzretent wrote: 9-11 was the defining moment in their chidlhood...
Jesus. Generation Fucked-Up!
Like I say, it's maybe easy to jump on the "death is bad" thing... completely contradictorily, I wouldn't mind seeing Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Blair get what's coming to them too, the fucking vampire scumbags that they are.
Only thing is, will this make any difference in the never-ending war? Like Hydra and that.
Dunno.... thoughts.
It's good to talk.
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Re: Osama
apparently the first sentence of the MLKjr quote is NOT by him
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Re: Osama
Indeed... but it's a good sentiment regardless.
It's actually from Yoda of 'Star Wars' fame...
It's actually from Yoda of 'Star Wars' fame...
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Re: Osama
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Re: Osama
true!. didn't know it was from yoda, coolBzaInSpace wrote:Indeed... but it's a good sentiment regardless.
It's actually from Yoda of 'Star Wars' fame...
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Re: Osama
For me, murderers killing a murderer is not news. 9/11 resulted in far too many lives being lost, around 3000? However, so did Ohio.... 3000 people or 4 people, doesn't matter... needless. Killing this man probably just made a whole load of extremists love him more, and they will just continue how they always were.
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Re: Osama
Front pages of the papers today in the UK. The number 2 man in al qaeda is now the number one. We must be on alert for terror threats in the UK...
How much has all this cost at a time where pretty much the whole western world is fucked financially? And for what?
Nothings changed? Its not like the world is now a safer place? We're still being made to live in fear of the bogeyman terrorists. Its all political games, and Obama can now say "we got our man".
Whilst I can never ever come close to understanding the grief and loss those people feel who lost loves ones in 9/11 the public display at the news was really ugly. A moments silence would have been a much more powerful way to pay respect to those lost to his acts and would have shown the world in a dignified way that whilst Osama was a hated figure, the US arent going to rejoice in violence.
I'm sorry If this offends anyone I didn't like what I saw. It reminded me to much of the footage of people in the middle east in a frenzy burning American flags and celebrating blowing up a tank.
How much has all this cost at a time where pretty much the whole western world is fucked financially? And for what?
Nothings changed? Its not like the world is now a safer place? We're still being made to live in fear of the bogeyman terrorists. Its all political games, and Obama can now say "we got our man".
Whilst I can never ever come close to understanding the grief and loss those people feel who lost loves ones in 9/11 the public display at the news was really ugly. A moments silence would have been a much more powerful way to pay respect to those lost to his acts and would have shown the world in a dignified way that whilst Osama was a hated figure, the US arent going to rejoice in violence.
I'm sorry If this offends anyone I didn't like what I saw. It reminded me to much of the footage of people in the middle east in a frenzy burning American flags and celebrating blowing up a tank.
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Re: Osama
simonkeeping wrote:
I'm sorry If this offends anyone I didn't like what I saw. It reminded me to much of the footage of people in the middle east in a frenzy burning American flags and celebrating blowing up a tank.
As with football hooligans...you cannot allow a small minority be the voice nor the face of the majority.
I too do not agree with those who were dancing, chanting and flag waving...but honestly, that was a small minority in a nation of 300 million. Do not assume that we were all doing that.
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Re: Osama
from the footage i saw of the celebrations it seemed like dumb/drunk college kids.
a bit unbecoming & embarrassing but yea not worth tarring the whole country over..
a bit unbecoming & embarrassing but yea not worth tarring the whole country over..
gonna burn brightly
for a while
for a while
Re: Osama
I know England isn't immune from idiots. Neither are we. Most people here didn't like what they saw. It was uncomfortable.simonkeeping wrote:
I'm sorry If this offends anyone I didn't like what I saw. It reminded me to much of the footage of people in the middle east in a frenzy burning American flags and celebrating blowing up a tank.
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Re: Osama
So, what are you suggesting then? At some point you have to fight back.simonkeeping wrote: How much has all this cost at a time where pretty much the whole western world is fucked financially? And for what?
Nothings changed? Its not like the world is now a safer place? We're still being made to live in fear of the bogeyman terrorists. Its all political games, and Obama can now say "we got our man".
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Re: Osama
the US/UK hawks always need an excuse to go to war so they can dupe the masses, there will always be a "bogeyman" / terror threat / WMD somewhere
Re: Osama
so they shot an unarmed man in his jammies and it wasn't 'revenge'? yes i have heard the counter arguements but the us statement after capturing saddam 'we got 'im!' seems to weigh heavily against the counter arguements. whatever makes a soldier sad will make a killer smile
“Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.â€
“Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.â€
'raging and weeping are left on the early road
now each in his holy hill
the glittering and hurting days are alomst done
then let us compare mythologies
i have learned my elaborate lie
of soaring crosses and poisened thorns'
now each in his holy hill
the glittering and hurting days are alomst done
then let us compare mythologies
i have learned my elaborate lie
of soaring crosses and poisened thorns'
Re: Osama
[quote="bunnyben"]so they shot an unarmed man in his jammies and it wasn't 'revenge'?quote]
What about the thousands of people who were murdered for the crime of showing up to work on time? Some having to make the horrific decision to jump to their deaths rather than burn to death. Or the folks who said fuck you to the hijackers and forced a plane to crash in a field in Pennsylvania insted of it hitting its intended tartget the US Capitol?
This guy was the mastermind and in my eyes he got off easy.
Who said it wasn't revenge?
What about the thousands of people who were murdered for the crime of showing up to work on time? Some having to make the horrific decision to jump to their deaths rather than burn to death. Or the folks who said fuck you to the hijackers and forced a plane to crash in a field in Pennsylvania insted of it hitting its intended tartget the US Capitol?
This guy was the mastermind and in my eyes he got off easy.
Who said it wasn't revenge?
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Re: Osama
the us delegates that have been on bbc radio 4 today. plusspzretent wrote:bunnyben wrote:so they shot an unarmed man in his jammies and it wasn't 'revenge'?quote]
Who said it wasn't revenge?
(from the times online) Last updated May 5 2011 3:17PM
The Archbishop of Canterbury has condemned the manner in which Osama bin Laden was killed after the White House admitted that he was not carrying a weapon at the time of his death.
His remarks came as a US official said that only one of the five people killed in the raid on bin Laden’s compound in the Pakistani town of Abbottabad had been armed.
In his first comments on the demise of the al-Qaeda chief, Dr Rowan Williams said today: “I think that the killing of an unarmed man is always going to leave a very uncomfortable feeling because it doesn’t look as if justice is seen to be done in these circumstances.
“I think it is also true that the different versions of events which have emerged in recent days have not done a great deal to help people.â€
The Archbishop, who has made building relations with Muslims a central plank of his ministry, continued: “I don’t know the full details any more than anyone else does but I do believe that in such circumstances, when we are faced with someone who is manifestly, was manifestly, a war criminal, as you might say, in terms of atrocities inflicted, it is important that justice is seen to be done.â€
The Archbishop’s comments came after several days of conflicting accounts from the White House as to the exact circumstances of bin Laden’s death during a raid on his compound in the Pakistani town of Abbottabad in the early hours of Monday.
White House staff first claimed that the 54-year-old was armed and resisting arrest when the team of US Navy Seals burst into the compound, then conceded that he had been unarmed.
Sources in the US Administration are now claiming that bin Laden had both an AK-47 assault rifle and a handgun within reach but a senior US defence official gave an account of events that contradicted intial reports of a prolonged and chaotic firefight.
The official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said that the operation was a precision, floor-by-floor mission through the high-walled compound.
Only one person encountered in the raid was armed and fired a shot — and he was killed only minutes after it began. The other four people killed were all unarmed.
The CIA has dismissed as false reports that appeared yesterday on the al-Arabiya news network claiming that bin Laden was captured alive and was eventually shot dead ten minutes later when he no longer posed a threat.
Al-Arabiya said that claim had been made by bin Laden’s 12-year-old daughter, Safia, during questioning by Pakistani intelligence. Safia was one of a number of women and children recovered from the compound after the raid.
Leon Panetta, director of the CIA, and other officials have said that the commandos had full authority to kill bin Laden during the raid unless he made a clear attempt to surrender.
But the question of whether bin Laden was armed at the time of his death raises issues as to the lawfulness of the killing given that assassinations are illegal under US domestic law.
Execution-style killings are not permitted under international law, which states that the target must be given a chance to surrender and can only be shot if they resist.
The White House has yet to publish the video footage of the killing that could resolve exactly what did happen inside the compound in Abbottabad. Mr Obama watched the incident unfold, beamed live to the White House situation room via webcams on the helmets of the US special forces troops.
Eric Holder, the US Attorney-General, told a Senate hearing that the raid during which bin Laden was killed “was lawful and consistent with our valuesâ€.
But Navi Pillay, the UN’s High Commissioner for Human Rights, called today for “a full disclosure†of the facts to determine the legality of the killing of the al-Qaeda leader.
“I’m still for a full disclosure of the accurate facts,†Ms Pillay, a former war crimes judge, told reporters in Oslo.
“I think it’s not just my office but anybody is entitled to know exactly what happened,†she added.
“The United Nations condemns terrorism but it also has basic rules of how counter-terrorism activity has to be carried out. It has to be in compliance with international law,†Ms Pillay said. “For instance, you’re not allowed ... to commit torture or extra-judicial killings.
“This was a complex operation and it would be helpful if we knew the precise facts surrounding his killing. The UN has consistently emphasised that all counter-terrorism acts must respect international law,†she added.
“If he was captured and brought before a court, I have no doubt he would have been charged with the most serious crimes, including the mass murder of civilians that took place on 9/11, which were planned and systematic and in my view amounted to crime against humanity.â€
Ms Pillay’s comments reflect widespread unease in European capitals at the manner of bin Laden’s demise — and the celebrations it sparked in the US.
The Dalai Lama, exiled spiritual leader of Tibet who is known for his pacificism and compassion, said the US may have been justified in killing bin Laden.
'raging and weeping are left on the early road
now each in his holy hill
the glittering and hurting days are alomst done
then let us compare mythologies
i have learned my elaborate lie
of soaring crosses and poisened thorns'
now each in his holy hill
the glittering and hurting days are alomst done
then let us compare mythologies
i have learned my elaborate lie
of soaring crosses and poisened thorns'
Re: Osama
continued...
Speaking on Tuesday night at Southern California University, he said: “In the case of bin Laden, his action was of course destructive and the September 11 events killed thousands of people. So his action must be brought to justice.â€
He said that if something is serious and it is necessary to take counter-measures, these have to be taken. Possible forgiveness for the terrorist “did not mean that one should forget what has been doneâ€, the Dalai Lama said.
He spoke during his first visit to the US since stepping down earlier this year as the day-to-day political leader of Tibet’s Government in exile.
In responses to military action, church leaders are guided by the “just war†theory developed by Thomas Aquinas.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church lists four conditions for military action, including where the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain, and all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective. There must be serious prospects of success and the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated.
Supporters of the killing of bin Laden argue it was supported by “just war†theory because it was done under legitimate authority, for public benefit and done openly.
However, there are increasing doubts being voiced among senior Church leaders about the killing.
Dr Charles Reed, foreign policy adviser for the Church of England, said: “Part of the problem, as Archbishop Rowan made clear, is that we do not know what actually happened. It is really hard to know whether it was an intentional killing or an accidental killing. What Rowan Williams was pointing to was that legally and ethically, the whole area of judicial killing or targeted assassination is hugely problematic. The idea that justice can be done in a summary way without recourse to legal instruments is problematic.â€
Helmut Schmidt, the former West German Chancellor, said that it was “quite clearly a violation of international law†and Cecilia Malmstrom, the European Union Home Affairs Commissioner, said that she would have preferred to see bin Laden before a court.
Ken Livingstone, the former London Mayor, said that President Obama had been left looking like a gangland boss rather than a statesman for ordering bin Laden’s killing.
Mr Livingstone, Labour’s candidate in next year’s mayoral election,said that America should have tried to take the al-Qaeda leader alive rather than ordering what amounted to an execution.
“This undermines any commitment to democracy and trial by jury and makes Obama look like some sort of mobster,†said Mr Livingstone.
He also warned that the US raid on Pakistani soil would provoke reprisals that left Britain less safe.
“I just looked at it and realised that it would increase the likelihood of a terror attack on London,†Mr Livingstone added.
“That’s very much the American style but I don’t think I’ve ever felt pleased at the death of anybody. The real problem for London is that after America we’re a big target so it’s a very dangerous time at the moment.â€
He added: “We should have captured him and put him on trial. It’s a simple point — are we gangsters or a Western democracy based on the rule of law?â€
Speaking on Tuesday night at Southern California University, he said: “In the case of bin Laden, his action was of course destructive and the September 11 events killed thousands of people. So his action must be brought to justice.â€
He said that if something is serious and it is necessary to take counter-measures, these have to be taken. Possible forgiveness for the terrorist “did not mean that one should forget what has been doneâ€, the Dalai Lama said.
He spoke during his first visit to the US since stepping down earlier this year as the day-to-day political leader of Tibet’s Government in exile.
In responses to military action, church leaders are guided by the “just war†theory developed by Thomas Aquinas.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church lists four conditions for military action, including where the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain, and all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective. There must be serious prospects of success and the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated.
Supporters of the killing of bin Laden argue it was supported by “just war†theory because it was done under legitimate authority, for public benefit and done openly.
However, there are increasing doubts being voiced among senior Church leaders about the killing.
Dr Charles Reed, foreign policy adviser for the Church of England, said: “Part of the problem, as Archbishop Rowan made clear, is that we do not know what actually happened. It is really hard to know whether it was an intentional killing or an accidental killing. What Rowan Williams was pointing to was that legally and ethically, the whole area of judicial killing or targeted assassination is hugely problematic. The idea that justice can be done in a summary way without recourse to legal instruments is problematic.â€
Helmut Schmidt, the former West German Chancellor, said that it was “quite clearly a violation of international law†and Cecilia Malmstrom, the European Union Home Affairs Commissioner, said that she would have preferred to see bin Laden before a court.
Ken Livingstone, the former London Mayor, said that President Obama had been left looking like a gangland boss rather than a statesman for ordering bin Laden’s killing.
Mr Livingstone, Labour’s candidate in next year’s mayoral election,said that America should have tried to take the al-Qaeda leader alive rather than ordering what amounted to an execution.
“This undermines any commitment to democracy and trial by jury and makes Obama look like some sort of mobster,†said Mr Livingstone.
He also warned that the US raid on Pakistani soil would provoke reprisals that left Britain less safe.
“I just looked at it and realised that it would increase the likelihood of a terror attack on London,†Mr Livingstone added.
“That’s very much the American style but I don’t think I’ve ever felt pleased at the death of anybody. The real problem for London is that after America we’re a big target so it’s a very dangerous time at the moment.â€
He added: “We should have captured him and put him on trial. It’s a simple point — are we gangsters or a Western democracy based on the rule of law?â€
'raging and weeping are left on the early road
now each in his holy hill
the glittering and hurting days are alomst done
then let us compare mythologies
i have learned my elaborate lie
of soaring crosses and poisened thorns'
now each in his holy hill
the glittering and hurting days are alomst done
then let us compare mythologies
i have learned my elaborate lie
of soaring crosses and poisened thorns'
Re: Osama
Yawn!
So, so easy for all of us in HINDSIGHT to say "oh, Bin Laden should have been arrested and tried in a court of law". None of us were in the shoes of those Navy SEALS. To have an evil mass-murderer in your sights after ten years of searching for him what do you do? Do you kill him or arrest him? None of us know what we would have done. The guys who were involved in that raid were told to either kill or capture Bin Laden. They made a decision and I think it is pointless arguing that it should have or could have been handled better. Bin Laden was a marked man and all of us know that once he was found the likelihood of him being killed was very high.
To argue otherwise reminds me of a horrible incident that happened here in Portland last summer. A phone call to police reported that there was a man in a public bathroom in one of our parks who was covered in blood and wielding a knife. Police came and the man came outside and went towards them. Police told him several times to drop the knife but the man continued to come at them. What do you do? You have a couple seconds to decide. The police officer shot the man and he ended up dying. After the event the blood smeared all over the guy proved to be his own. He was deranged and in the bathroom cutting himself up. However, the cops had a split second decision to make. They had no idea whose blood it was on him AND after three or four attempted repeats to get him to drop the knife and stop they had to do what they had to do. Of course, the next day many people started arguing that they should never have shot him. Come on now...in hindsight this is easy. Put yourself in that position and make that split second decision. Sorry to say it but I believe most of us would have probably done the same thing.
Bin Laden was apparently unarmed...yes, but there was apparently a 40 minute firefight and they had the world's most notorious and evil mass murderer in their sights. The SEALS did what they were trained to do.
Does it make me want to wave flags, dance and celebrate? No.
Do I believe Bin Laden's death was justified? Sadly, yes I do.
So, so easy for all of us in HINDSIGHT to say "oh, Bin Laden should have been arrested and tried in a court of law". None of us were in the shoes of those Navy SEALS. To have an evil mass-murderer in your sights after ten years of searching for him what do you do? Do you kill him or arrest him? None of us know what we would have done. The guys who were involved in that raid were told to either kill or capture Bin Laden. They made a decision and I think it is pointless arguing that it should have or could have been handled better. Bin Laden was a marked man and all of us know that once he was found the likelihood of him being killed was very high.
To argue otherwise reminds me of a horrible incident that happened here in Portland last summer. A phone call to police reported that there was a man in a public bathroom in one of our parks who was covered in blood and wielding a knife. Police came and the man came outside and went towards them. Police told him several times to drop the knife but the man continued to come at them. What do you do? You have a couple seconds to decide. The police officer shot the man and he ended up dying. After the event the blood smeared all over the guy proved to be his own. He was deranged and in the bathroom cutting himself up. However, the cops had a split second decision to make. They had no idea whose blood it was on him AND after three or four attempted repeats to get him to drop the knife and stop they had to do what they had to do. Of course, the next day many people started arguing that they should never have shot him. Come on now...in hindsight this is easy. Put yourself in that position and make that split second decision. Sorry to say it but I believe most of us would have probably done the same thing.
Bin Laden was apparently unarmed...yes, but there was apparently a 40 minute firefight and they had the world's most notorious and evil mass murderer in their sights. The SEALS did what they were trained to do.
Does it make me want to wave flags, dance and celebrate? No.
Do I believe Bin Laden's death was justified? Sadly, yes I do.
Re: Osama
Bunnyben:
I will save the mesaage board from quoting your two posts.
I will just say this, wherever you go on the internet you will find someone who supports what you think.
I think the cost was extremely high. We, the US, re-elected W and his cronies and they continued to line their pockets with the bogus invasion of Iraq. Well, really we didn't re-elect them. They stole a few elections much to my chagrin. But I digress.
Had the US military, and whatever countries followed including yours, just kept their eye in Bin Laden maybe it wouldn't have taken 10 years and cost so many lives and so much wasted money.
At the end of the day you have the US Special Forces complete their task and killed the most wanted man in the world. How did they know who else was armed or not in this sprawling complex? They didn't. Some people were. They took care of business, Can you imagine what was going thru their minds? "Osama, would you like to surrender? Please? We dont want to shoot you. Please?
Like he was concerned about the innocent lives he took all over the world. Then rubbed our noses in it with his follow up videos.
Whats the saying? You play with fire....
And this motherfucker lit the mother of all fires.
I will save the mesaage board from quoting your two posts.
I will just say this, wherever you go on the internet you will find someone who supports what you think.
I think the cost was extremely high. We, the US, re-elected W and his cronies and they continued to line their pockets with the bogus invasion of Iraq. Well, really we didn't re-elect them. They stole a few elections much to my chagrin. But I digress.
Had the US military, and whatever countries followed including yours, just kept their eye in Bin Laden maybe it wouldn't have taken 10 years and cost so many lives and so much wasted money.
At the end of the day you have the US Special Forces complete their task and killed the most wanted man in the world. How did they know who else was armed or not in this sprawling complex? They didn't. Some people were. They took care of business, Can you imagine what was going thru their minds? "Osama, would you like to surrender? Please? We dont want to shoot you. Please?
Like he was concerned about the innocent lives he took all over the world. Then rubbed our noses in it with his follow up videos.
Whats the saying? You play with fire....
And this motherfucker lit the mother of all fires.
http://www.lilmoxie.com
Detroit, Music, Sports and Other Stuff(including Spiritualized, Spacemen 3)
Detroit, Music, Sports and Other Stuff(including Spiritualized, Spacemen 3)
Re: Osama
the point is if he was running at them with a knife then yes sure, understandable. i think here the problem lies in the lack of consistant information. i thought it was fair enough until i started hearing/reading leaks that it may have been a fabrication (original story) which puts it all on dodgy ground. am i glad he's no longer free? yes. do i feel sorry for those who have had their lives ruined? yes. my only fear is escalationredcloud wrote: Do I believe Bin Laden's death was justified? Sadly, yes I do.
1) terrorists attack us and kill in cold blood
2) us invades and kills aparently unarmed men (one gaurd outside aparently had a knife)
3) whats the next level?
'raging and weeping are left on the early road
now each in his holy hill
the glittering and hurting days are alomst done
then let us compare mythologies
i have learned my elaborate lie
of soaring crosses and poisened thorns'
now each in his holy hill
the glittering and hurting days are alomst done
then let us compare mythologies
i have learned my elaborate lie
of soaring crosses and poisened thorns'
Re: Osama
yes of course. what you say is correct. but still i feel uneasy. i just hope that the us administration tell the whole truth of the matter in a single statement and put this to bed. and bravo to mr obama for not releasing the pictures. i'm so glad that there is a rational intelligent man in control of the 'button'. hope all is well with you and yours spzretent.spzretent wrote:Bunnyben:
I will save the mesaage board from quoting your two posts.
I will just say this, wherever you go on the internet you will find someone who supports what you think.
I think the cost was extremely high. We, the US, re-elected W and his cronies and they continued to line their pockets with the bogus invasion of Iraq. Well, really we didn't re-elect them. They stole a few elections much to my chagrin. But I digress.
Had the US military, and whatever countries followed including yours, just kept their eye in Bin Laden maybe it wouldn't have taken 10 years and cost so many lives and so much wasted money.
At the end of the day you have the US Special Forces complete their task and killed the most wanted man in the world. How did they know who else was armed or not in this sprawling complex? They didn't. Some people were. They took care of business, Can you imagine what was going thru their minds? "Osama, would you like to surrender? Please? We dont want to shoot you. Please?
Like he was concerned about the innocent lives he took all over the world. Then rubbed our noses in it with his follow up videos.
Whats the saying? You play with fire....
And this motherfucker lit the mother of all fires.
'raging and weeping are left on the early road
now each in his holy hill
the glittering and hurting days are alomst done
then let us compare mythologies
i have learned my elaborate lie
of soaring crosses and poisened thorns'
now each in his holy hill
the glittering and hurting days are alomst done
then let us compare mythologies
i have learned my elaborate lie
of soaring crosses and poisened thorns'
Re: Osama
At least they are correcting themselves publicly as they interview the Special Ops forces. Not something the previous administration would have ever done.
Even though it doesn't look great right now.
Even though it doesn't look great right now.
http://www.lilmoxie.com
Detroit, Music, Sports and Other Stuff(including Spiritualized, Spacemen 3)
Detroit, Music, Sports and Other Stuff(including Spiritualized, Spacemen 3)
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Re: Osama
none of the 911 victims were armed either. never saw it coming
who the fuck cares if he was unarmed. he deserved what he got
who the fuck cares if he was unarmed. he deserved what he got
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Re: Osama
and in my personal opinion so should G. W. B.burningwheel wrote:none of the 911 victims were armed either. never saw it coming
who the fuck cares if he was unarmed. he deserved what he got
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Re: Osama
he should have been impeached at the very least
guess i was wrong about it not being gruesome!
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/05 ... tml?hpt=T2
guess i was wrong about it not being gruesome!
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/05 ... tml?hpt=T2
[url=http://www.loveisforever.org]Primal Scream, My Bloody Valentine, Swervedriver, Chapterhouse, The Telescopes, Loop, Verve and more![/url]
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Re: Osama
The overly Politically Correct stance of the Islamic "burial at sea" for a mass murderer who we have been told repeatedly is not a true muslim was a bit too much. If, on the other hand, this was a clever way to feed him to the fish and leave no martyrs grave, then I would say OK. The equally, "Oh it is too graphic" in response to a photo release is also complete shit. Knowing where bin laden was, and having Intelligence as well as a team put in place after extensive training was the right call; having various websites quickly linked to the re-election campaign site was an opportunistic and cynical act by a president and administration who have made so many miserable choices in foreign as well as domestic policy. Brave? Gutsy? Only in that if the raid failed, it may further hurt re-election chances. No, it was the RIGHT thing to do, and as have so many evil bastards before been shown post mortem, I would prefer a bit more openness and let the people see what has become of osama, not a deity of Islam, but another dead criminal. The US administration had months to plan and think about such things as "get a photo we can use before his "burial" at sea". It has been the president all along who did not want the photos released, (I had rather NOT have seen photos of a US president bend 90 degrees to bow to a Saudi King OR ANYONE ELSE); it was the cabinet who went along with the president and took this safe, and I would suggest weak stance after having disposed of a fraudulent muslim who killed many people of many races and creeds to then "hide" behind the "graphic" nature of the deed. I do not like the precedent of relying on Big Brother with actions the scope of this one. Senators have seen the photos, and they work, in theory, for the American people, and I suggest they quit showing that smirking photo of bin laden and show the Don Corleone 'bullet though the eye photo'. Too Graphic? I think not. Those who do NOT wish to see may easily look away. I give the real credit to Team 6 and the men who actually pulled this thing off and not someone who basically watched on closed circuit TV and nodded "yeah". It was only a matter of time before the demise of bin laden and I'm glad it came. Those who hate us will hate us no less w/ or w/o a photo. Have a nice day.
Last edited by semisynthetic on Sun May 22, 2011 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Everything is a Poison; it is the amount or degree that separates one Poison from another"
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READ JOHN PILGER.
Unfortunately much of this whole 'thing' seems to have become an event that we in 'the west' are being encouraged to celebrate.
Celebrating and worshipping death? No thanks - In the "clash of civilizations" argument we were led to believe that WE were civilized.
At least for once the government admitted to an assassination, although even the fucking Nazis got a trial.
Now, back out of the matrix...
Celebrating and worshipping death? No thanks - In the "clash of civilizations" argument we were led to believe that WE were civilized.
At least for once the government admitted to an assassination, although even the fucking Nazis got a trial.
Now, back out of the matrix...
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Re: Osama
I was not at all pleased by seeing flag waving and demonstrations in the USA or the antidemonstrations in the Middle East.
I feel no need to follow some nitwit with a bullhorn because this bastard is dead. It would be enough for me if this particular bastard were simply shown to be dead.
I feel no need to follow some nitwit with a bullhorn because this bastard is dead. It would be enough for me if this particular bastard were simply shown to be dead.
"Everything is a Poison; it is the amount or degree that separates one Poison from another"
Paracelsus
Paracelsus