Cognac.

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Shaun
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Cognac.

Post by Shaun »

I'm looking at treating myself to a nice cognac this christmas but I'm no expert on that drink. Only ones sold in supermarkets so none of the really expensive bottles. This is the shortlist (that I've seen in Tesco, Sainsbury's and Morrisons) that's within my budget. Any opinions? I don't even know the difference between an armagnac and a cognac.

Remy Martin.
Chateau Paulet.
Courvoisier Cognac V.C.
Hennessy Fine de Cognac.
Armagnac Extra 12 year.
Calvados Pays D' Auge XO.
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spzretent
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Re: Cognac.

Post by spzretent »

Shaun wrote:. Any opinions? I don't even know the difference between an armagnac and a cognac.
.
I would defer to Runcible on this one.
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MODLAB
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Re: Cognac.

Post by MODLAB »

Shaun wrote:I'm looking at treating myself to a nice cognac this christmas but I'm no expert on that drink. Only ones sold in supermarkets so none of the really expensive bottles. This is the shortlist (that I've seen in Tesco, Sainsbury's and Morrisons) that's within my budget. Any opinions? I don't even know the difference between an armagnac and a cognac.

Remy Martin.
Chateau Paulet.
Courvoisier Cognac V.C.
Hennessy Fine de Cognac.
Armagnac Extra 12 year.
Calvados Pays D' Auge XO.

Difference is Grape, Region and way it is distilled.

Best,

Mark
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runcible
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Re: Cognac.

Post by runcible »

Christ - avoid Remy Martin at all costs. Total gut rot and a brandy that as soon as the spirit age reaches VS, VSOP or XO that's what they stick on the label. They chuck in loads of burned sugar and caranel to get the colour right as their VSOP would be clear without it.

Go for a smaller producer. We sell lots Frapin, Leyrat and Chateau Montifaud. These are traditional producers who wouldn't think of adding sugar or anthing to colour the spirit - the colour is all natural from the barrels and the drink is ultra smooth as a result. Remy is firewater in comparison. Plus Frapin's VS is VSOP quality, his VSOP is XO quality but he doesn't play by the normal rules and lets quality dictate what he puts on the bottle rather than marketing opportunities.

Some of the people you mention make decent stuff at a higher level, but just think of the marketing and advertising budgets they require. Frapin, Leyrat and Montifaud have virtually no advertising budget - they invest in what they make and how it looks and as a result you get a far superior bottle.

Lastly a supermarket is the last place I'd buy something like decent cognac from. They can only buy from producers who make vast quantities, therefore compromising quality and ruling themselves out of dealing with high quality small scale producers who wouldn't want their bottles sold in such places anyway.
Shaun
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Re: Cognac.

Post by Shaun »

runcible wrote:Lastly a supermarket is the last place I'd buy something like decent cognac from. They can only buy from producers who make vast quantities, therefore compromising quality and ruling themselves out of dealing with high quality small scale producers who wouldn't want their bottles sold in such places anyway.
Around here there is absolutely no decent independent/specialist stockist which was the reasoning behind buying from a supermarket. If you could recommend a trustworthy online stockist that sell the ones (or similar to) you mention I'll go down that route. Top end budget a few extra quid to what I'd have to pay in the supermarket.

And what's a VS, a VSOP and a XO?
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runcible
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Re: Cognac.

Post by runcible »

Where are you based again Shaun? And what is your budget? Quality cognac is hard to find under about £35 but Frapin VS is about £34 in our shop. I'm sure I can find a reputable place for you if you give me a little info...

As far as ages and grading is concerned this is from Wikipedia:
V.S. ("very special"), Very Special, or ✯✯✯ (three stars) designates a blend in which the youngest brandy has been stored for at least two years in cask.
V.S.O.P. ("very superior old pale") designates a blend in which the youngest brandy is stored for at least four years in a cask, but the average wood age is much older.
XO ("extra old") designates a blend in which the youngest brandy is stored for at least six years but on average for upwards of 20 years. On 1 April 2016, the minimum storage age of the youngest brandy used in an XO blend will be set to ten years.
Low quality producers will wait til their spirit reaches 2 years in cask and then bottle it as VS. It'll be shite - fiery, rough as hell and will burn your taste buds. Frapin waits til the spirit is at least 4 years and then label it as VS. The quality producers use the rules as guidelines and don't follow them to the letter. XO can be labeled as such when it's 6 years old yet we sell XO cognac that's well over 30 years old but is still just labeled as XO.
spzretent
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Re: Cognac.

Post by spzretent »

Told ya Runcible was the man. 8)
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MODLAB
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Re: Cognac.

Post by MODLAB »

Mark,

Not trying to be smart or anything.

By way of clients and having to learn about cognac. There is a law that states no extra sugar or any agents can be added.
So how are the 'big' ones excluded?

B,

M
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runcible
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Re: Cognac.

Post by runcible »

MODLAB wrote:Mark,

Not trying to be smart or anything.

By way of clients and having to learn about cognac. There is a law that states no extra sugar or any agents can be added.
So how are the 'big' ones excluded?

B,

M
I am talking about colour. Caramel is basically burnt sugar and this is added to basic blends in order to darken them - the same as in whisky. You can't tell me cooking brandy or Bell's whisky is that colour naturally. We have people in our shop who say some of the Single Malts look too clear. That's because they haven't been artificially coloured - which is what happens to Remy Martin VSOP and pretty much every cheap brandy. I guarantee that colour is added to lower grade cognacs as well as a great many brandies. Try a cheap Spanish brandy and the caramel content is so powerful it dominates the palate.
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Re: Cognac.

Post by MODLAB »

runcible wrote:
MODLAB wrote:Mark,

Not trying to be smart or anything.

By way of clients and having to learn about cognac. There is a law that states no extra sugar or any agents can be added.
So how are the 'big' ones excluded?

B,

M
I am talking about colour. Caramel is basically burnt sugar and this is added to basic blends in order to darken them - the same as in whisky. You can't tell me cooking brandy or Bell's whisky is that colour naturally. We have people in our shop who say some of the Single Malts look too clear. That's because they haven't been artificially coloured - which is what happens to Remy Martin VSOP and pretty much every cheap brandy. I guarantee that colour is added to lower grade cognacs as well as a great many brandies. Try a cheap Spanish brandy and the caramel content is so powerful it dominates the palate.

Ah yes! Right.

I totally agree on the smaller brands. If you can find them.

Though you would be totally surprised by Remy Martin Coeur de Cognac. It's quite good for £35.

M
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Shaun
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Re: Cognac.

Post by Shaun »

runcible wrote:Where are you based again Shaun? And what is your budget? Quality cognac is hard to find under about £35 but Frapin VS is about £34 in our shop. I'm sure I can find a reputable place for you if you give me a little info.
Kidderminster. I think I'd allow my budget stretch to absolutely no more than £50 but I'd prefer to spend less than that if possible.

What about Hines?
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runcible
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Re: Cognac.

Post by runcible »

Shaun wrote:Kidderminster. I think I'd allow my budget stretch to absolutely no more than £50 but I'd prefer to spend less than that if possible.

What about Hines?
Will get back to you on this. There is some decent Hines and £50 will get you a spectacular bottle no question.
runcible
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Re: Cognac.

Post by runcible »

Shaun wrote:Kidderminster. I think I'd allow my budget stretch to absolutely no more than £50 but I'd prefer to spend less than that if possible.

What about Hines?
My friend Julia works for the company that imports Frapin. She told me that you can get their stuff in Brum:
'Tell him to try Selfridges in Birmingham for Frapin. Or Connolly’s.'
Do you get there at all? If that's no good let me know and I'll ask again...

Hine can be good for sure but they are a much bigger company than Frapin or Montifaud. I always try and go for smaller producers if I can - more quality control.
Shaun
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Re: Cognac.

Post by Shaun »

runcible wrote:
My friend Julia works for the company that imports Frapin. She told me that you can get their stuff in Brum:
'Tell him to try Selfridges in Birmingham for Frapin. Or Connolly’s.'
Do you get there at all?

I went on Sunday to look around the German market that's set up there. Actually I've found another place that is a lot cheaper than Selfridges and also much nearer, and they stock both Frapin and Montifaud, along with other lesser known (to me) brands. I tried to post a link to their website but it didn't work. The shop is called Nickolls and Perks and is in Stourbridge.

Is there anything of note you'd recommend that they stock? Thanks for taking time to ask around for me.
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runcible
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Re: Cognac.

Post by runcible »

That place has a nice selection - scary Armagnac range! They also have one of those amazing sampling machines - you can have a lot of fun with those but before you know it you've spent all your money...

They have quite a lot of things I haven't tried so I'll stick to what I know. Frapin VSOP (which is actually XO quality) is worth the extra dosh if you can stretch to it and it's better than Montifaud VSOP.

The other one I meant to mention is Cognac Leyrat. This is from the less fashionable Fins Bois region so outside the more famous Petite and Grande Champagne regions. Some Cognac connoissuers turn their noses up at anything that's not from the Champagne regions but that's just silly in my opinion. Leyrat make absolutely outstanding Cognac and because they have a less illustrious region on the label they attract a lower price tag whilst being of a similar quality.

I must be honest and say that for spirits I am a rum man but I can appreciate a good drop of Cognac or Armagnac. The most incredible spirit I have ever tasted is Ron Zacapa Centenario XO Rum from Guatamala - a close friend generously gave me a bottle of this and every sip has been truly extraordinary. Not cheap mind but a genuine treat.
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Re: Cognac.

Post by Guessed »

My favourite informative thread, thanks guys
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