Eurozone Crackup

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jadams501
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Eurozone Crackup

Post by jadams501 » Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:31 pm

I'm interested in what you British and continentals think about David Cameron's actions the other day to reject the Merkel-Sarkozy plan. Was it a popular move? Do you want to be part of a pan-European bureaucracy or is national sovereignty more important to you?

Hard to put it in the context from here in the U.S.A.

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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by semisynthetic » Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:08 am

I was asked by a very good friend when the "Euro" was created if I thought he should invest, and I said no.

The "Euro" seemed to be a goodwill gesture combined with the idea of "an United Europe" which sounded more utopian than real. I was then, and remain convinced, that regardless of OR if this mess is cleaned up, nationalism will still override the "dream" or desire for a so called "United Europe". I feel certain that the British are glad they stayed out of the "Euro Zone"; the politics of cleanup may be a different story with many subtexts however.


I certainly don't want to pay for any more screwups, the Federal Reserve SECRETLY funneled roughly $7 TRILLION, roughly 50% of our GDP when the Congress was voting on these "handout" bills to "Buddies" and the "deserving", and the Deserving Buddies in the Big Banks that Helped the current POTUS in 2008. That sounds absolutely criminal, and you, and your childrens, childrens, children will be paying the tab; so cut the crap with all of this "class warfare"; the "OCCUPY" crowd SHOULD have been in front of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, where the Deserving Big Bad Bank Buddies were being served luncheon.

That old adage of "Socialism is fine until you run out of other peoples money" seems to finally hit home HARD.

I saw a very interesting, but troubling chart the other day. A $1 bill, in 1914 was worth, surprise, $1.
Last Year, the SAME $1, well, not the SAME dollar, but a current $1 bill is worth 4.8 cents.

I remember once taking a stack of Italian lira into a bank in Switzerland, and they just laughed. "Book marks" was the only real use, I was told.



The Independence of the Swiss has kept them Strong; Look at what has happened to the majority of the "rest" of us;
too bad if we failed to learn from Success, and went, like lemmings, right on over the ledge.




.
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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by scratch » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:20 pm

jadams501 wrote:is national sovereignty more important to you?
Yes, but it´s also a fact that the southern part of EU has more corruption than the north.. why ditch a working system for one that you know is going to be more corrupt?
semisynthetic wrote: I feel certain that the British are glad they stayed out of the "Euro Zone"

That old adage of "Socialism is fine until you run out of other peoples money" seems to finally hit home HARD.


If you think the eurozone is a socialist invention then you are very confused..

Yes, I think the UK, Denmark and Sweden are very happy they stayed out of it..
I know I am perfectly happy with my vote against joining in the swedish referendum of 2003 (it was roughly the right-wing voting yes vs the left-wing voting no, but nowadays the rightwing agree it was the proper choice of course...)


not sure about the eastern part of EU that are in the process of joining or not ready to be accepted into the eurozone yet..?
"the greatest example of self-violation in the history of art"

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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by semisynthetic » Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:40 pm

(To avoid any further confusion on your part, let me provide one thought at a time; Since you have shown simply a "cut and paste" in the "box above", (these were two completely different thoughts), now simply shown in [close visual proximity to one another], ergo, I will stand w/ the singular point below as the most relevant to this entire mess). That being, wherever you are, cradle to grave entitlements will and must at some point fail; there will never be enough funds IN THE WORLD to make this sort of "EU Zone" system work; that is why Europe is on fire now. Continued devaluation of currencies only increases the rate of failure. I did mention the 2 main reasons for creating the so called "Euro Zone"; one was more capitalistic, one more idealistic. BOTH of these "Ideas" doomed the "Euro Zone"; doomed by the deteriorating notion of layers of "Entitlements". Politicians buying off a constituency is repugnant, but when this constituency votes for one party o'er another because one party is giving more of someone else's money away, seems the saddest of all simple tricks to fall for; and disgusting to create a Nanny State and a "slave class" made dependent by it, and run by the very Politicians who created it. The Realization that "The Party's Over", and something must be done to put the fiscal house in order should be a lesson to any thinking person, and NOT just those in the so called "Eurozone".

That old adage of "Socialism is fine until you run out of other peoples money" seems finally to have hit home HARD.



.
Last edited by semisynthetic on Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by semisynthetic » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:05 pm

scratch wrote:
jadams501 wrote:is national sovereignty more important to you?
Yes, but it´s also a fact that the southern part of EU has more corruption than the north.. why ditch a working system for one that you know is going to be more corrupt?
semisynthetic wrote: I feel certain that the British are glad they stayed out of the "Euro Zone"
(THESE ARE COMPLETELY OUT OF CONTEXT, and Simply "cut and pasted"; HARDLY A Method for Valid ARGUMENT)
That old adage of "Socialism is fine until you run out of other peoples money" seems to finally hit home HARD
.
Please READ What I wrote in toto, and quote without this "cut and paste" method which simply ignores what you do not find helpful to your argument; You have a right to your opinion, but please do not "pick and choose" wording from my writings to do it; it is misleading, and intellectually dishonest.

I would add that to make such blanket statements about the relative corruption between differing EU areas shows a GREAT DEAL of naivite' AND "Confusion" about an INHERENTLY CORRUPT SYSTEM, not simply one of "varying" locale.
"Everything is a Poison; it is the amount or degree that separates one Poison from another"
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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by Mustard » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:12 pm

We're all in a mess and things will be getting worse before it gets better but avoiding any involvement in the treaty may be a good thing for us. It seems clear that the imposing of a tax on financial transactions was to be used as revenue raising to help balance Europes books. In or out of the eurozone would be irrelevant as the money would be used to stabilise those countries not managing their budgets.

I have an idea though - why don't we, as the the UK, impose our own financial transaction tax? If we did it under this treaty, the money would go to the EU, if we impose it ourselves, we get the revenue. If it goes well, we could even help our friends in the EU. Do you think Dave will try this? No, of course not, it's bad for business.

Personally, I don't think socialism is that bad a word though. It doesn't have to be corrupt.

'Capitilism is fine until you run out of other peoples money' seems much more fitting to me.

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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by jadams501 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:50 am

Mustard wrote:Personally, I don't think socialism is that bad a word though. It doesn't have to be corrupt.
To me saying socialism doesn't HAVE to be corrupt is like saying capitalism doesn't HAVE to encourage greed. It's true in some sense, and there are inspiring examples of it working the way one might hope, but generally speaking the results are disappointing. We have to plan based on experience rather than hope.

To me in America the European Union has always seemed frighteningly un-Democratic. I recognize the advantages of coordinating things continent-wide, but from what I've read people have been denied votes and there isn't much accountability. Do you think that's the case or is the EU actually a good thing?

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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by redcloud » Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:53 am

jadams501 wrote: To me in America the European Union has always seemed frighteningly un-Democratic. I recognize the advantages of coordinating things continent-wide, but from what I've read people have been denied votes and there isn't much accountability.
I think we should look at our own broken and corrupt political system before we start judging others from afar.

Regarding corrupt...what about the Presidential election of 2000? Remember the CHAD's in Florida? That whole scene was like something one would expect to happen in Mugabe's Zimbabwe. :roll:

What about 2004? In most inner cities the poorer blacks who almost always vote Democrat had to queue for hours due to neighborhood election offices being slimmed down to few and far between. While in the upper middle class, white suburbs the polling offices were pretty much on every street corner (and many stayed open later) making it much easier for the traditional Republican voter to cast their vote with little hassle.

The amount of money also involved in campaigning and winning the Presidential election is TOTALLY obscene. Political polarities between Congress and the President aside, once the President is elected they are slaves to the lobbies. It's all become a total farce and a joke. Republican, Democrat...they have all become as bad as each other.

Personally, what I think we need in the USA is a true, viable, realistic third party that can shake things up. We desperately need things shaken up. The whole thing stinks!

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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by semisynthetic » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:21 pm

Mustard wrote:We're all in a mess and things will be getting worse before it gets better but avoiding any involvement in the treaty may be a good thing for us. It seems clear that the imposing of a tax on financial transactions was to be used as revenue raising to help balance Europes books. In or out of the eurozone would be irrelevant as the money would be used to stabilise those countries not managing their budgets.

I have an idea though - why don't we, as the the UK, impose our own financial transaction tax? If we did it under this treaty, the money would go to the EU, if we impose it ourselves, we get the revenue. If it goes well, we could even help our friends inthe EU. Do you think Dave will try this? No, of course not, it's bad for business.

Personally, I don't think socialism is that bad a word though. It doesn't have to be corrupt.

'Capitilism is fine until you run out of other peoples money' seems much more fitting to me.
WHY NOT A TAX TAX; or a BREATHING AIR without PERMIT TAX TAX? TAXING BIRTH, DEATH and SEX should bring in a tidy sum; of course CAMERAS WILL BE NEEDED; ergo: THE CAMERA NEEDED TO WATCH YOU TAX TAX. No permit?
TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX; no money? Get in the OTHER line. And wait for the money that socialism CONSUMES, then there
will be nothing to tax; slavery seems the ideal alternative, that is, if you are in the "Special Classes" of Technocracy.
Far Fetched? Far Fetched TAX, give me a break Tax.

Usually spelling and punctuation can be overlooked; but with a statement inane as this one in red, wherein "Capitalism" is so misunderstood AND misspelled, I felt a NEED to point it out.

Socialism "redistributes" in the most ineffecient manner; technocrats like the old Polit Bureau, from far away, cannot run an economy, except into the ground.
Capitalism, with ALL its faults, still CREATES wealth, whereas
Socialism CONSUMES wealth until it is gone.
See: Greece, Italy, Portugal, and even the idiots running the USA - printing the currency into oblivion; all of these "Brilliant (so called) Individuals" seemingly have never HEARD of the Wiemar Republik; or, perhaps they have and don't
care about the consequences. A "Wheelbarrow" full of useless cash money was needed to buy bread; The idea of using Trillion Unit bills is ludicrous. Impossible?, ask those in the former Yugoslavia, where 1,000,000,000,000,000.00 bills were used - To buy FOOD.


Just a little addendum: ANY Enterprise involving Human Beings, has a capacity to be CORRUPT.[/b]
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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by Mustard » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:52 pm

It would be 'republic' where I come from.

Polit Bureau? I live in UK.

I think the EU makes sense as in the same way that being friendly with your neighbours makes sense. Trade is good keeps money turning over. We all need that. It pays the bills and keeps us eating. But if the Eurozone could've paid it for itself then why the trouble with a new treaty. It comes down to whether the UK wants to help their neighbours mis-spending, doesn't it? Apparently, we in the UK mis-spend as well. Does being part of the EU mean we have to take full reponsibility for them? Would they for us? Well, I think so - they're doing it for the others. Maybe it won't go ahead? Maybe the eurozone will break up before any money is paid? Is it just a trade agreement like it was when started. Cameron is saying it is just a trade agreement by not handing any money over.

I can't say we've had the same media stories of denied votes etc in the uk. Maybe the odd one in the uk out of how many MPs. I've heard more of people in the US being denied places to place their vote in the US and the legal action in the Bush election. I guess it happens everywhere. I've heard it happens in Iraq. It's a scourge of the people isn't it?

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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by semisynthetic » Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:49 am

How can the EU "help the UK" when it can't even help itself now, because it has spent MORE than it HAD?

Idealism, and the desire to be kind is laudible, but the reality is very simple, do you allow the EU to weaken the UK, (whose currency BENEFITED by staying OUT of the "euro" in the first place), or let those who made the mess clean it up themselves. Personally, I will be very glad when Reality sets in on a Global Scale that you CANNOT spend MORE THAN HAS EVER EXISTED Through inefficient government intervention, while expecting those who DO produce to foot the bill for
Failed Policies; Failed and FAILING. When Capitalism, as "imperfect" as it is, is allowed to return without the governments fists in the cookie jar, then Wealth will again be created FASTER than it is consumed; until then, anyone left w/ any capital, will wait on the sidelines until the way back is cleared and this "Crony Crapitolism" is ended. The Experiment has Failed.
If YOU wish to "spread your wealth around", GREAT! Just don't call others names when they don't allow their pockets to be picked any further.

I would say THIS time, "clean it up yourselves"; "if you cannot be more austere, and cut out this entitlement crap, then you are already lost, YOU WILL BE GREECE!".
Broke, angry and without recourse other than to accept what you are given and do what you are told to do.
The "republic" has just failed, and is broke.
Idealism fades with languishing, fallen hopes and Increasing, Gnawing Hunger.
"Everything is a Poison; it is the amount or degree that separates one Poison from another"
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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by Mustard » Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:03 am

I don't think I called you any names, if you're referring to me that is. I'm not really sure who called you (or do you mean Capitalism?) a name but maybe I missed it.

I'm no major fan of the EU - so let's get that straight but I do think it has it's place. The intention of it's original incarnation makes sense. If we can make a more stable region then we were more likely to avoid major confilcts as in the past. That is kind of forgotten because we haven't had any major wars in Europe for a while and we don't think it will happen again. The trade treaty also allows some sense of stability as we all can trade on the same level and it gives the EU funding - all duty imposed on goods imported from a non-EU country (allowances/exceptions aside) goes to the EU. The EU is seen as a meddling interfering bunch here in the UK, from fish quotas to regulating the size of vegetables etc, the rules they seem to try and impose are pretty ridiculous. Assuming they are trying to impose them that is, we Brits are pretty insular and the media helps blow a lot of EU regs out of proportion. I think we also need to stick together. This World is all about who is a superpower? Who is an emerging superpower? Europe acting as one allows us to avoid being pressurised from the outside.

Now, I'm not actually against Capitalism but the greed that has gone with it. There is space for both systems, If we can grow through Capitalism then it's all good but if money is made through it then a fairer share should be paid to allow others to have a reasonable standard of living. The basic needs should be met.There is a pretty big share of western populations that are going hungry, so where has Capitilsm helped them? Ever increasing need for ever increasing profits has resulted in the bottom, middle rung workers being squeezed or disregarded. Executive bonuses have sky-rocketed. It's the nature of the beast I guess but that is where a tax comes in. A tax can allow money to be diverted from greedy businesses/individuals/corporations to, hopefully, allow a share to be passed to cover some basic needs. Capitalism needs regulating so to stop the greed. Governments also need to ensure that they deal with their own greed, I agree.

But maybe you can explain the spending more than ever existed part. It's true and I agree. But where does the money come from to fuel capitalism? One business does well, another won't. It's a finite pot. 1 winner = 1 loser. Do we just keep creating money? Surely, we have to? If so, and I'm not saying I understand it all, isn't it the same outcome as what is happening (Quantative easing) at the moment?

What is happening in Britain today is that a coalition government with no mandate to rule is allowed to make decisions that make the general population suffer. We're having to pay for the the greed of others. Schools, NHS and other essential services are being degraded without proper resources. I'm not talking of pseudo-civil servant jobs but the basic services people need to exist in a relatively simple existance. It's not wrong to ask for society to pay it's fair share but make sure it happens at the top of the tree, as well as the bottom.

A long post to get nowhere

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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by semisynthetic » Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:29 am

I enjoy Healthy debate, and meant no malice toward you, or anyone else.

With the Political Season heating up, I simply want to state the following;

It seems there is a very definite fork in the road to take; One way gives the Individual more say over their life and livelihood,
and responsibility for it;
The Other way gives Big Brother even MORE power to direct, to control and to intrude upon the individual; taking more from
you, and wasting, consuming, and NOT allowing the marketplace to work as it should, this road seems the way to utter failure.

Personally, I prefer to make my own choices and take my own chances, and NOT be dependent upon anyone; if I had failed,
that would have been my own doing; if success was the outcome, then I should be left alone to enjoy the fruits of my labors.

I wish you All a Very Happy New Year!
"Everything is a Poison; it is the amount or degree that separates one Poison from another"
Paracelsus

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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by TheWarmth » Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:07 pm

redcloud wrote: The amount of money also involved in campaigning and winning the Presidential election is TOTALLY obscene. Political polarities between Congress and the President aside, once the President is elected they are slaves to the lobbies. It's all become a total farce and a joke. Republican, Democrat...they have all become as bad as each other.

Personally, what I think we need in the USA is a true, viable, realistic third party that can shake things up. We desperately need things shaken up. The whole thing stinks!
This is how I feel. Think about the amount of energy that goes into "fundraising" and imagine if it could be redirected to accomplish something meaningful.

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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by semisynthetic » Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:24 am

TheWarmth wrote:
redcloud wrote: The amount of money also involved in campaigning and winning the Presidential election is TOTALLY obscene. Political polarities between Congress and the President aside, once the President is elected they are slaves to the lobbies. It's all become a total farce and a joke. Republican, Democrat...they have all become as bad as each other.

Personally, what I think we need in the USA is a true, viable, realistic third party that can shake things up. We desperately need things shaken up. The whole thing stinks!
This is how I feel. Think about the amount of energy that goes into "fundraising" and imagine if it could be redirected to accomplish something meaningful.
I agree. Money has so poisoned the well for both parties that it HAS become Obscene. I was disppointed, for example
to hear the "new bar" set at $1,000,000,000.00 + by the President for his reelection campaign; there will be a great many "Private Jets" flying to and fro bundling cash, and I agree with both of you; and with redcloud's assertion "it stinks". These clowns already spend TOO much time just gleaning donor's pockets, the raising of the bar to a truly obscene amount was an error I believe, or a calculated manuever; the change of heart by the President to NOT take public funds only, as he said he would, was also an "error" that adds to the mistrust of Politicians and government officials in general, and increased the influence of the "Big Money boys" regardless of party. I would consider a third party ONLY if I was certain there was a very good chance that this person would win; I do not want to see a "Perot" effect; the purpose of a third party should be to remove the current President; he has had his chance, is in way over his head, and despite the public personna, the far, far left policies and people he has chosen to be in the administration are simply not what most Americans want; the "independents" have left him, I cannot see the young vote going his way as it did the first time, young people want to start lives, use their skills to obtain a position that pays more than an unemployment check.
Only the Idealogues and big government type voters are going to be counted upon, ergo , SLING THAT MUD!

One last thought; all this "Hope and Change" the USA was promised is NOT well served by class warfare that puts one American against another only to serve the interests of a very few politicians and hacks. A BILLION dollars can sling a LOT of mud; the record this president now OWNS is nothing to crow about for very long. Especially if you are in a line for a handout instead of a job; Dignity is a powerful force for good, not something to be manipulated for Ideology and reelection; that is as obscene as ANY other topic herein.


Have a VERY HAPPY NEW YEAR!
"Everything is a Poison; it is the amount or degree that separates one Poison from another"
Paracelsus

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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by Mustard » Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:13 am

Yep, that amount of money is pretty disgusting. We, in the UK, debated the funding of elections to be made by the people. Seems reasonable and anything that removes the influence of any self-interested party can only be a good thing. How can you go into government owing 1 billion or whatever figure they quote? It will have to be paid back at some point, most likely with some sort of policy that was not even on the agenda at election time. I would say that if the people fund the election, the parties would be more accountable, in terms of spending and in the policies discussed.

I'm intrigued by your thinking on Obama. It's not how he is percieved in the UK. The thinking here is that he is hamstrung by Republicans who water down his policies whenever possible. He has had an impossible job though. Who could've come in and sorted out the mess in 4 years? That said the papers here seem to think he's got a good chance of getting re-elected.

For the first time in 60 years or so, we in the UK had a third party that actually had an effect in the election. The Lib Dems have a small proportion of the vote but now find themselves in a coalition running the Country. Nick Clegg, who actually came over pretty well in the election, much better than Brown or Cameron, is now Deputy Prime Minister and in a position he could only have dreamed of a few years ago. The problem though is that he is now the laughing stock and seems to keep himself hidden. His party have back-tracked on some major policies which have really upset the (well, some) people. If you looked at the British Govenrment from the outside who would not even notice the Lib Dems influence. It make you wonder what they even thought they would get out of it. If things went well the Conservatives were always going to get the credit. The next election will be interesting because these two parties will go up against each other with quite a bit of mud-slinging.

Going back a little...I also want to be successful and think that people should be allowed to strive for it and enjoy the fruits. At the same time, I would want my friends, family, neighbour, you to be able to have a reasonable standard of living even if they didn't gain 'success'. I'm talking about healthcare, housing, elderly & child care etc. I don't see the problem with having a safety net for people who get into trouble and I don't mind paying slightly extra for it. We all may need that sort of help at some point. People get into some ugly situations through no fault of their own. It comes down to respect. It should be beyond politics. I can't really agree with the marketplace, if allowed to work as it should, giving individuals more say in their lives. The basic fact is that the race for profits mean that something has to give - cutting costs on materials, service or labour or whatever they see fit. Cutting costs on labour squeezes the choices people have, it doesn't give them more. The UK has started charging a lot more for University fees - that marketplace setting the value of the service they give - this is giving less choice for people as they just can't afford it.

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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by semisynthetic » Sun Jan 01, 2012 1:23 am

Mustard wrote: The UK has started charging a lot more for University fees - that marketplace setting the value of the service they give - this is giving less choice for people as they just can't afford it.
Mustard, I want to comment on just this section mainly, I think it says a lot, and helps answer several points.

In the UK, are Universities Private or Public Institutions? If they are Public Instititutions, i.e., "Government", then there is
NO MARKETPLACE. A cynic might conclude that it is the Government choosing "who wins" a ticket to University, or not.
That is Social Engineering, and something I detest. Here in the US, private schools tend to try to avoid as many "strings" attached by the government as possible. Many countries do not have even THAT chance. When the Government or State sets the prices, don't even use "marketplace" in the same sentence. It is like discussing the boiling of ice at room temperature and pressure; there is simply a logical disconnect.
Once upon a time when I started University, the prices look very low compared to now, but of course the currency was worth quite a bit more than it is now. That is also an Engineered result; Quantum Easing and devaluation of currency.

As for what you here regarding the US President, I would be amazed if it was NOT as you describe. The "Western European Model" of big government and "we will take care of you" is very much in the same line as this president, and so of course the media there eat it up. Nothing surprising there at all. Until the election of 2010, the president got everthing he asked for and wanted; unfortunately for the country, most people did NOT want many of those programs, nor the direction he was setting in motion; to say the opposition party is to blame is almost amusing. If he had "Wonderful things" to talk about, and fill speech after speech, he wouldn't need lackies to sling mud; he could, instead talk about his many achievements, but there is very little to discuss.

My experience at University was like anyone else; (except perhaps that I refused any financial aid help other than to work); I had at least 3 part-time jobs for several years, and ultimately earned a series of merit scholarships. For years I worked in up to 4 labs each semester and summer; I tutored both at University, and out of my apartment. Devotion and hard work paid off in many ways besides the monetary gain. Firstly, I LOVED my work; I really enjoyed research; I taught for years, even when it was long past any "requirement". When I left University for another Research Position, it was with the caviat that I would return and teach a course in Advanced Medicinal Synthesis and Design, and another course which dealt with the uses of glycosides in Medicinal Research. I demanded this right to the extra work, because I loved it enough to take on even more resposibility; and by the way, it cost me $ to do this; staying full time at the other position would have been far more lucrative.

Just one last thought, I would NEVER want someone who is ill, old or incapable of providing for themselves to go without. I
don't mind saying that giving AS MY CHOICE is something I do every year, all year long. I DO NOT want to give up what I have earned to pay so some slacker can watch Looney Tunes all day. Too many people are receiving "Handouts" that they do NOT deserve. That is not just my opinion, it is reported in study after study. I ALWAYS want a safety net for the truly deserving, and those that are genuinely needy, by no fault of their own. In the US, there are many institutions set up by private organizations, that, surprise, surprise, are currently feeling the squeeze from the bad economy, and so those who can, and understand the current predicament, tend to give more than in years past.

I still believe that the best answer for free people is to have a minimum of regulation and a maximum of Freedom, and for our
government to return to its primary, original functions, not the nanny state that Orwell saw all too clearly, and how ironic it seems that so many people cannot see it even as this "State" is currently staring them in the eye. I do hope Thought and Attention to Detail and Fact will overcome the "ease of Ideology" and the Utopian promises of Big Brother. There is a Big Picture here that should not be obfiscated by meaningless and disconnected points; either YOU will have control over your life, or someone ELSE WILL control it for you. To me, the answer is so clear.
"Everything is a Poison; it is the amount or degree that separates one Poison from another"
Paracelsus

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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by Guessed » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:30 am

jadams501 wrote:I'm interested in what you British and continentals think about David Cameron's actions the other day to reject the Merkel-Sarkozy plan. Was it a popular move? Do you want to be part of a pan-European bureaucracy or is national sovereignty more important to you?

Hard to put it in the context from here in the U.S.A.
In answer to your question I think Cameron was correct in his actions but it was based on some very ill advised assumptions.
In truth it was the kind of short sighted knee jerk reaction to be expected of politicians who meddle in economics.
Now the financial sector does make a tidy return to the tune of ~£57millions in taxes to the coffers annually but it only enriches itself. Different if it was nurturing the wider economy here but it doesn't it continues to generate wealth for itself via speculation and risk rather than investment which would benefit the real economy.

Having said that, sometimes it is better to remain stable in the short term rather than change anything.

It's interesting that the Eurozone; which begun life as a trade treaty (post ww2) to enhance market activity now seeks to curtail it by restrictions.

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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by scratch » Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:17 pm

semisynthetic wrote: (THESE ARE COMPLETELY OUT OF CONTEXT, and Simply "cut and pasted"; HARDLY A Method for Valid ARGUMENT)
That old adage of "Socialism is fine until you run out of other peoples money" seems to finally hit home HARD
.
I see.. so red text in "your writings" means it´s just random ramblings completely out of context that no one is allowed to comment on? Got ya, I will try to remember this universal rule.
sorry for thinking it had anything to do with the thread topic - work on those tics, dr strangelove.

hilarious thread this one..
"the greatest example of self-violation in the history of art"

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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by jadams501 » Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:13 pm

Mustard wrote:I'm intrigued by your thinking on Obama. It's not how he is percieved in the UK. The thinking here is that he is hamstrung by Republicans who water down his policies whenever possible. He has had an impossible job though. Who could've come in and sorted out the mess in 4 years? That said the papers here seem to think he's got a good chance of getting re-elected.
Obama's biggest problem imho is that he promised contradictory things to people to get himself elected. He promised to simultaneously be a transformative leader who would revolutionize America, and also a thoughtful moderate who wouldn't step on anybody's toes. No matter what he does, roughly half of the people who voted for him will feel betrayed.

He also raised expectations for himself too high. I think he felt that he could keep the election-time hype going long enough to steamroll the opposition, but instead he just ensured that anything he does feels vaguely disappointing.

The media tends to paint Obama as a good man proposing self-evidently smart ideas to "sort out the mess," but he's supported some really bad legislation. The "stimulus package" that would supposedly prevent a recession was a huge amount of waste that accomplished nothing, but yet he wants to do it again with even more money we don't have. The "health care reform" he championed is a monstrosity that was written by lobbyists and will make America's already bad medical system even worse. He just signed legislation allowing him to arrest people without a warrant, etc. etc.

I didn't think n 2008 that it would be possible to end up with a President as bad or worse than Bush, but that's what we are saddled with. No matter which way the election goes in November, America is in bad shape.

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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by redcloud » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:03 am

jadams501 wrote:
Obama's biggest problem imho is that he promised contradictory things to people to get himself elected. He promised to simultaneously be a transformative leader who would revolutionize America, and also a thoughtful moderate who wouldn't step on anybody's toes. No matter what he does, roughly half of the people who voted for him will feel betrayed.
Nobody should have "bought" all his promises with the notion that he would deliver on them all. That is the one thing I have learned with age...politicians may promise many things but it is often false. They simply cannot deliver on it in four years. Especially not when you have been elected on the the outset of the worst economic crisis since 1929 and in the midst of two wars. Did I hope for more? Yes. Have I been disappointed? Yes. But, in 2008 I didn't know what to make of the recession and how it would eventually play out and affect this country. Its been BAD but nobody can blame Obama for it. We were spiraling downwards when he took over.
I didn't think n 2008 that it would be possible to end up with a President as bad or worse than Bush, but that's what we are saddled with. No matter which way the election goes in November, America is in bad shape.
I fundamentally and strongly disagree with this. Obama has returned some international integrity that had vastly eroded during Bush's reign. Bush Jr was absolutely horrific for this country in many ways. He will forever be remembered for lying to the world and leading us to a bogus war costing trillions as well as the loss of our integrity and respect around the world.

Also, do not have short term memory loss....the current state of the country was years in the making. There is no way one man can "save us" in four or even eight years. It will take years to get out of this mess. What he can (could) do is put some specific things into place that will hopefully make us stronger.

The greed and feeling of entitlement that has swept over this country, and to be honest, the entire western world (Western Europe and Australia included) has to change. The stubborn quarrels in Congress have also been pathetic. These stalemates have continued to strangle the country and only make it harder for average citizens to survive.

Regarding the Republican nomination....Jon Huntsman is probably the Republican Party's most articulate, intelligent and quite possibly the most qualified candidate (certainly when it comes to the economy and how to deal with China) but he gets NO press and is languishing at 1% of the vote. I have no answer as to WHY the Republican's don't give Huntsman a proper look yet they gave Cain, Perry and Bachmann many platforms to embarrass themselves and their party. :roll:

We desperately need a third party to shake this fucker up.

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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by semisynthetic » Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:54 am

scratch wrote:
semisynthetic wrote: (THESE ARE COMPLETELY OUT OF CONTEXT, and Simply "cut and pasted"; HARDLY A Method for Valid ARGUMENT)
That old adage of "Socialism is fine until you run out of other peoples money" seems to finally hit home HARD
.
I see.. so red text in "your writings" means it´s just random ramblings completely out of context that no one is allowed to comment on? Got ya, I will try to remember this universal rule.
sorry for thinking it had anything to do with the thread topic - work on those tics, dr strangelove.

hilarious thread this one..

What an interestingly battological disconnected response to a simple request for intelligent discourse.
Certainly, everyone is entitled to their own opinions. My ramblings (and yours) are open to discussion and
hopefully, thoughtful consideration of those ideas and opinions. Taking another person's words, out of context,
and by doing so, distorting their intended meaning is a very old, sophomoric device for rhetoric where more sophisticated delivery of disagreements, (for whatever reason), is not possible.
"Everything is a Poison; it is the amount or degree that separates one Poison from another"
Paracelsus

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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by Mustard » Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:19 am

I don't think I've heard of this Huntsman guy. Is his problem that he doesn't have enough friends in high places? I read a book 'Who Let The Dogs in?!' which slated Romney & Gringrich for some of thier policies & voting. Now, this book was hardly highbrow criticism but neither of these Guys come across very well.

The problems of the US & UK & The Western economies in general aren't going to be fixed in 4 years, nor likely in 8 either. To expect Obama to have any effect in that time was pretty hopeful. I don't get how Obama can be seen as worse than Bush even one little bit.

With whom is there this feeling of entitlement? Are you talking about the people in general? Here in the UK there has been a campaign of criticism from the government in regards to the social security etc. It is true that there are alot of undeserving people claiming more than they should and these people should be squeezed. Make them work in the community for their benefits - seems reasonable to me. There is a sense from the people though that the banks and big business feel that they are entitled to special treatment. They get loans, handouts without feeling obliged to make a contribution back.

I don't agree that the slack should be taken up by charities nor should it be left to an individual decisions to donate. Having a system of national insurance contributions ring-fenced seems completely reasonable.

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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by redcloud » Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:34 pm

Mustard wrote:I don't think I've heard of this Huntsman guy. Is his problem that he doesn't have enough friends in high places?
I make no endorsement at all nor am I Republican. I raise this point because I am simply amazed that Huntsman sits so low in the polls. He speaks Mandarin and was once the Secretary of Commerce, Deputy of Trade, Ambassador to Singapore and the Ambassador to China (in Obama's Cabinet). He was also the Governor of Utah, a state whose economy has been very successful in the past 20 or so years. When he speaks he is articulate, intelligent and comes across as if he knows how global economies work. He is not xenophobic of the Chinese or the Indians. He knows that we must deal with them and accept their emerging economies. In all the interviews and articles I have read about him he comes across as one of the better brains to help us get out of this economic slump. Thus, the reason Obama hired him as his Ambassador to China.

He is Morman but so is Romney, so I don't think religious affiliation is the cause of his poor showing in the polls. I have no idea if he is considered moderate or ultra conservative. I haven't seen anything else about him other than discussions about the economy. I raised his name because why would those cartoon characters, Cain, Perry and Bachmann once be in double digits while obviously somebody with brains would be so low in the ratings? I don't get it. But, that pretty much summarizes the Republican Party. I think they are skeptical of intelligence. Why else would Bush have been elected....twice?

Oh, and lest I forget....Huntsman was once the keyboard player in a prog rock band called Wizard. :lol:

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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by jadams501 » Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:37 pm

redcloud wrote:\Nobody should have "bought" all his promises with the notion that he would deliver on them all. That is the one thing I have learned with age...politicians may promise many things but it is often false. They simply cannot deliver on it in four years. Especially not when you have been elected on the the outset of the worst economic crisis since 1929... Its been BAD but nobody can blame Obama for it. We were spiraling downwards when he took over.
Well, nobody SHOULD have bought the promises, but many people did. It's an unfortunate fact of our politics that uninformed people have a lot of electoral sway. And Obama, like most politicians, exploited that -- except that people who should have known better were eager to accept his lies and evasions as some higher inspirational truth. Hope and Change!

I don't blame Obama for causing the economic crisis, which I'd pretty equally ascribe to Clinton and Bush II, but is really the result of larger bankrupt ideologies among our political/academic/journalistic elite. But I find it odd that Obama is always given the benefit of the doubt that he is "trying to fix this mess" against mean-spirited opposition that simply wants him to fail. Even if he is indeed "trying," his policies have been disastrous and he wants to buckle down on them. Why is opposition to his poorly-conceived policies so often assumed to be malicious?

The stimulus package made things worse and was largely an attempt to give vulnerable congressional Democrats the means to feather their nests. The health care bill was written by lobbyists to enrich powerful players, and was justified through deceptive accounting despite being far beyond what the country can afford. He doesn't want to enforce immigration laws at all for his political advantage, even though for American citizens it means more competition for scarce jobs and millions more burdening our strained welfare state. And he has supported the exact same Orwellian policies as Bush II, more so actually, but faces far less scrutiny for it because he's assumed to be "one of the good guys."
Obama has returned some international integrity that had vastly eroded during Bush's reign. Bush Jr was absolutely horrific for this country in many ways. He will forever be remembered for lying to the world and leading us to a bogus war costing trillions as well as the loss of our integrity and respect around the world.
I was not a fan of Bush at all, and unfortunately Obama has continued a lot of the same policies. The U.S. is still over-extended abroad and closer integration with corrupt international instituations isn't going to help.

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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by Mustard » Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:09 pm

Something strange going on here - there was a post by Semi that has now disappeared??? Don't know why it was retracted. Put it back. I did start to formulate a quick reply before coming back to it later but on trying to go back and check something, Semi's post is now disappeared.

What I started to say I'll stick with for now -

I see a distance between what point I am trying to make (not as eloquent as you of course) and what you seem to be preaching. Your posts come across as rants of he shouts loudest. But maybe that is just the way you CAPITALIZE words. I think I will come back to this. Just a couple of things that I think are a bit offensive, arrogant and mis-judged. One of them, was regarding how grateful we, in the UK or Europe, should be for the US saving us in WW2. Well, how convenient it is for you to pull that one out. How about how long it took for the US to get involved in that war? Where were you in the beginning? How many countries were taken over by the time the US got involved? What was the attitude in the US regarding even going to war? The general consensus of the population was that it wasn't your war to fight, wasn't it? The fact that it was Nazis involved made no difference at all to them. But then there is support for some nasty regimes throughout the world through time from your shores (as with the UK before you start!). WMD's in Iraq - maybe or maybe not - but your point on the gassing of the Kurds or Marsh people? wtf? The US could have intervened but didn't. In fact, when Saddam was gassing the Kurds, he was a friends of yours. It's convenient to forget this though isn't it?

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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by semisynthetic » Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:13 am

Mustard wrote:Something strange going on here - there was a post by Semi that has now disappeared??? Don't know why it was retracted. Put it back. I did start to formulate a quick reply before coming back to it later but on trying to go back and check something, Semi's post is now disappeared. I will answer with the seriousness which this deterioratingly deserves.

What I started to say I'll stick with for now -

I see a distance between what point I am trying to make (not as eloquent as you of course) and what you seem to be preaching. I would not preach, but I DO know "Shall we gather at the River". Your posts come across as rants of he shouts loudest. (You must have extraordinary hearing!) But maybe that is just the way you CAPITALIZE words. Strange. I think I will come back to this. Just a couple of things that I think are a bit offensive, arrogant and mis-judged. One of them, was regarding how grateful we, in the UK or Europe, should be for the US saving us in WW2. I never made that comment. Well, how convenient it is for you to pull that one out. It has seemed to me to NEVER be convenient to pull out; but perhaps you refer to war or a play on words? How about how long it took for the US to get involved in that war? It is true that the USA was far more isolationist than we are now; but it difficult to want to die defending people who give up so easily. Where were you in the beginning? Where were we at the end is more relevant, but perhaps you mean ME, Personally? I was not yet born; but many of my countrymen joined the Canadian, British and Australian Services; and some even fought very early in the (former) Yugoslavia, and of course Burma, India and China. How many countries were taken over by the time the US got involved? I suppose all that surrendered so quickly; fighting for all those centuries and STILL not equipped for war. What was the attitude in the US regarding even going to war? A Repetitive question; The general consensus of the population was that it wasn't your war to fight, wasn't it? Except for those who DID volunteer to fight under other countries banners. The fact that it was Nazis involved made no difference at all to them. Who held up that piece of paper...Chamberlain; and who gave up the Sudatentland for "peace", NOT the USA; The anshluz in Austria was widely supported by the Austrians, but not by Captain Von Trapp. But then there is support for some nasty regimes throughout the world through time from your shores (as with the UK before you start!). WMD's in Iraq - maybe or maybe not - but your point on the gassing of the Kurds or Marsh people? wtf? The US could have intervened but didn't. In fact, when Saddam was gassing the Kurds, he was a friends of yours. It's convenient to forget this though isn't it? Well, America is just full of faults; and people who wanted freedom instead of little kingdoms and Monarchies, no one is Perfect.



I did post an opinion; a few questions, but NOT a sermon. I removed it within minutes, thinking it an unfortunate waste of my time. This way, it will be MUCH easier for those so inclined, to both ask AND answer their own questions; far more convenient, don't you think? As for Saddam, he was no friend of mine; I never even met him.

And as for "WWII", I am certain I never mentioned it; not once. Really Mustard, I think he who "rants" may be who you see in the mirror, but certainly, I am not ranting, sermonizing or blaming you personally for WWII or WWIII, either.

Strange though, how the argument put forth condemns the US for involvement with Iraq over some sort of "ficticious" WMD's, and the US is also condemned for not dealing with the same real toxins used on innocents earlier by the same regime who did not have any.........

Perhaps the most inane, are capital letters somehow louder than lowercase ones?

First I heard about the apparent misuse of "red" letters; now,
I am informed that "capital letters" just won't do either; I see my decision to not waste any more of my time was correct. And since I have caused such a disturbance, with loud letters and red ramblings, it IS for the best after all.

Too bad, I had hoped for an intelligent exchange of Ideas, not Color Schemes and Relative Letter Size; I wanted discussion, not to redecorate my opinions.

HOWEVER (notice the capitals- AND color) I did give in, and attempted to answer the questions above as best I could and with the lack of seriousness I have hitherto attached to this ENTIRE humoresque' - (assuming it is eventually put to music).
That's All Folks!
"Everything is a Poison; it is the amount or degree that separates one Poison from another"
Paracelsus

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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by Mustard » Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:13 am

You didn't just post a few questions and you know it. Put that original post back up then - the comment was along the line of without the US I or we or someone would be speaking another language - if that wasn't a reference to WW1, WW2 then what was it? - Maybe without the US I'd be speaking Iraqi?

No, not a personal friend (That was Rumsfeld), I guess, but friendly enough to do The US's dirty work when they needed it. Instead of waiting 30 years to go after Saddam, why didn't they do it after it ocurred?

The double standards re. the WMD's is astonishing for all those in the West. The basic facts are that they were not a threat to the US, nor the UK and not much a threat for Israel either. Where did these WMD's come from? Th West was happy when they were used in the Iran-Iraq war.

I agreed and disagreed with much of what you've said in your posts but my offense is certainly not to do with caps and colours. You know this.

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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by redcloud » Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:09 pm

I am absolutely NO fan of Rumsfeld, Cheney or Bush Jr. I think that particular administration tainted this country with more than just blood. Our reputation, respect and integrity worldwide was completely destroyed during their 8 year reign. Internally, while differences of opinion have always existed it is during Bush's years that the country really split with almost a deep hatred of anything representing the opposite to one's beliefs: Red/Blue, Conservative/Liberal, Religious/Scientific, Rich/Poor, Foreign/Domestic.

Iraq and Afghanistan are the USA's equivalent of Frankenstein's monster. We beefed both countries up militarily with hardware and money to fight the enemy of the day. Iranians and Soviets. Then it came back to bite us in the ass. On September 11th the war in Afghanistan became totally unavoidable. There is no country in the world that would not have gone into another country had similar attacks happened on their soil. HOWEVER, Iraq was an absolute misguided war that cost us billions and spilled the blood of thousands. Tony Blair's legacy will also be forever remembered for backing Bush and getting blood on his hands too.

None of this is to say that Saddam was a good person but the war itself was a complete sham and we will pay that price for many, many years to come.

Iran, Pakistan, North Korea? All three of these countries possess potential dangers to the West. Pakistan being the one that already owns the bomb. What do we do there to keep their WMD from getting into the hands of hell bent extremist? We certainly can't afford to drop tens of thousands of people on the ground. Are we going to continue to beef up Israel, Saudi Arabia, India and South Korea to help combat the growing problem? These questions exist and continue to present constant headaches to politicians and very real dangers in our world. But, seen from THEIR view (our adversaries).... the US and the West continue to present headaches and real dangers to them.

Hypocritically, while we discuss these issues the US Government (and Europe) continues to ignore the horrific and brutal wars throughout Africa. And...the savage drug wars in Mexico and the rest of Central & South America continue to get worse and worse.

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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by semisynthetic » Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:32 am

[quote="Mustard"]You didn't just post a few questions and you know it.


You seem to remember more of what I wrote than I do, so it made little difference to me when I edited it, and by editing, destroyed whatever I wrote. The fact is, I sat down, I wrote out thoughts as they came. I did post a few points and questions, most of it tongue in cheek, not as directly as I responded to your previous posting, but nothing worth "setting the Thames on fire for". I answered your last post with the clear intent of avoiding any more "discussions" of the type above; I thought an attempt at humor, (since that posting reads like an interrogation), I answered the questions flippantly and without any preconception of what I would write, ending up as a time lag argument over nothing.

Please have these discussions with someone else; IT IS NOTHING PERSONAL; I am simply finding them, in general, to be increasingly tiresome and a waste of time; ergo, I ended with
"That's All Folks"
for a reason.
"Everything is a Poison; it is the amount or degree that separates one Poison from another"
Paracelsus

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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by clewsr » Thu May 17, 2012 11:20 am

Looks like things are staring to move fast with this again - billions of Euro's are being taken out from banks in Greece, Spain and Italy. I still think Greece would be better off already if they had jumped from the Euro 12 months ago. It seems to be inevitable, and procrastination seems to make it all worse. Prolonging the agony.

where did all the money go?

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Re: Eurozone Crackup; A Warning.

Post by semisynthetic » Fri May 18, 2012 10:22 pm

Yes, WHERE DID ALL THE MONEY GO?

Greece has something like 36% of its population absolutely dependent upon the "Government"; that means that the remaining 64% (actually much less) must surrender their wealth to a overstacked, bloated government; the LEAST efficient system possible to "redistribute" other people's money.
Combine that with the decline of the VALUE of the currency, like in the US, and everywhere, and all of a sudden, a run on the banks leads to 2 possibilities; Germany bails them out yet AGAIN, or a loaf of bread is going to cost a fistful of worthless paper money, and the people suffer because they gave up TOO MUCH to politicians who care only for power.

The Idealism of Youth is a terrible bubble to Burst, but, here it is. Wake up and smell the Poverty.

Who could POSSIBLY be surprised that there was any other outcome?
Soon, those who HAVE SURRENDERED LIBERTY TO BE DEPENDENT UPON "The State" WILL BEGIN BURNING IT DOWN INSTEAD OF REALIZING THE HUGE ERROR THAT WAS MADE: Take BACK your LIBERTY and PRIDE and BUILD; it will not be easy; it would have been much easier several years ago, or easier STILL to NEVER gotten into this mess. The LACK of Political will, and the DESIRE for "MONEY FOR NOTHING" bankrupted Greece. "What a Surprise".

Do we LEARN from THIS, or go "FORWARD" like LEMMINGS over the cliff?
"Everything is a Poison; it is the amount or degree that separates one Poison from another"
Paracelsus

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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by redcloud » Fri May 18, 2012 11:49 pm

clewsr wrote:
where did all the money go?
The 1% have it all while the rest of us work our asses off to pay our mortgage/rent and feed our family.
semisynthetic wrote:
Do we LEARN from THIS, or go "FORWARD" like LEMMINGS over the cliff?
We learn from it...but not with Mitt Romney leading us. A different view perhaps than semi or jadams but...that is the beauty of living in a democracy.

Although, saying that word "democracy" means less and less these days. I was pretty appalled with the huge political fund raising party Mr. Clooney and his Hollywood elite millionaire buddies threw for Obama. $15k a ticket? Absolutely disgusting. I know Mr. Romney has millions and Obama has to compete with that in this election. But, the amount of money being spent on this election makes my stomach churn. Nobody is being "elected". Somebody is effectively buying their seat in office.

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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by semisynthetic » Sat May 19, 2012 4:50 am

BOTH candidates have BILLIONAIRES backing them; so if indeed it is being "bought", then I MUST cast my vote for someone who understands capitalism, the founding fathers, and one who is NOT adhering to the failed philosphies of Saul Alisnsky et al.

I can run my life MUCH better than a bureaucrat in Washington D.C. I have done a much better job that what is going on NOW, and have all my life!
"Everything is a Poison; it is the amount or degree that separates one Poison from another"
Paracelsus

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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by clewsr » Sat May 19, 2012 9:38 am

Semisynthetic » if I understand you correctly, you seem to say Socialism is the problem. It may be part of the problem, but I would say it is rampant capitalism and greed that has screwed Greece, Europe, UK and the US for that matter. Greece paid those evil Goldman Sachs people millions for fudge the figures to get them into the Euro to join up to a club they couldn't survive in.

I go to Spain now and then and there are hundreds and thousands of empty and unfinished apartments. Its a weird site. And it is what is going to break the Spanish banks when they finally accept that their 'asset' isn't worth 200000 Euros, its worth nothing because no one wants to buy it. That was banks being greedy and becoming property speculators when they should have been being banks and looking after people's money. I don't understand how the banks still think its ok to hoover up billions out of the economy each year and take them out as bonuses. That money must come from somewhere.

We are all fucked in the long run, http://www.usdebtclock.org/

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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by jadams501 » Sun May 20, 2012 12:38 am

redcloud wrote:The 1% have it all while the rest of us work our asses off to pay our mortgage/rent and feed our family..
The problem with the 1% vs. 99% thing (while in some ways technically true) is that it implies that "we" the righteous 99% are being screwed by "them" the 1%, and that there's a common agenda we all can unite behind in order to "stop the exploitation." The problem is that people's interests conflict and the world is not so simple to have clear cut heroes and villains. A lot of "income inequality" comes from globalization rather than deliberate perfidy. I'm not a fan or defender of corporations, the problem is that they're the ones who end up running the government when you give the government more power to ostensibly crack down on them.

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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by redcloud » Sun May 20, 2012 2:25 am

jadams501 wrote: The problem with the 1% vs. 99% thing (while in some ways technically true) is that it implies that "we" the righteous 99% are being screwed by "them" the 1%, and that there's a common agenda we all can unite behind in order to "stop the exploitation." .
I do not think that those who go to bed worrying about jobs or who are struggling to find a job or who are working pay check to pay check to make ends meet or who do not have health care and worry about the unthinkable can ever be considered the "righteous". It's called survival.

In fact, I would say those who are in the 1% are "the righteous" as many are oblivious to the world around them and the basic struggles that many of us face in our daily lives. Mitt Romney is a perfectly good example of somebody completely out of touch with many people across this land.

Spend a day at work with me....see the faces of those who are seriously affected by poverty. Tell me your heart wont pain when you see a hungry kid.

"Righteous"? Far from it.

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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by semisynthetic » Sun May 20, 2012 6:49 am

clewsr wrote:Semisynthetic » if I understand you correctly, you seem to say Socialism is the problem. It may be part of the problem, but I would say it is rampant capitalism and greed that has screwed Greece, Europe, UK and the US for that matter. Greece paid those evil Goldman Sachs people millions for fudge the figures to get them into the Euro to join up to a club they couldn't survive in.
We are all fucked in the long run, http://www.usdebtclock.org/
The word or term "Socialist" seems to have many meanings, depending upon whom you ask. Perhaps it too is "evolving" on schedule for the election like so many other points of view..............So I don't even need the word.

What I will continue to put forth is that MORE government never works as efficiently as the private sector. The Private Sector makes jobs that make money; Government makes INSANE regulation upon regulation that does just the OPPOSITE. Maybe a LOT of people feel they need Nanny to hold their little hands all their life, tell them it is going to be alright, and provide every little thing sweeticums needs, of course someone else will be paying for it. And when Nanny has ENOUGH people by the hand, or throat, there will not be enough people putting money into the kitty to pay for all those who CHOSE to become Nanny's little slaves, dependent, and beholden to Nanny. Then it is too late. What if Greece had NOT wanted to join a club they couldn't afford? Would they not be better off now? The Drachma would actually MEAN something, in both real terms, and something more esoteric. But, they are where they are, and it was their choice. This Bubble and Burst model has been shown for years to be, if not absolutely predictable, certainly inevitable by the "Austrian" Economists. Those Goldmann Sachs people really get around. Look at many prominent curricilum vitae? Do so, and surprise yourself.

But as for the Nanny, Big Brother "May I have Some More", Not for Me. No.

Independence of Mind and Individualism is what makes Great Societies, and a Great People. The Individual may choose to do what he or she pleases, not being held captive by what Nanny will give; or take. I have done well by working hard and not taking handouts, even when they were available to me, I preferred to work, save, and prosper. Weird, huh? Why is that generations of the "I Need Nanny" STILL need Nanny; why work when someone who HAS will pay the tab. No Thanks. I am too self reliant and independent to need the teet of an everexpanding government; perhaps it is a sense of pride, or stubborness, or maybe I just don't like the idea of taking something that doesn't belong to me just because Nanny says it will be OK..........Nanny Lies. Nanny Lies A LOT.

If you honestly think "The Government" is some benign entity "Only here for our good", you are a fool. Politicians throughout History have offered Bread and Circus, BUT AT A PRICE; a price far more than I am willing to pay. I LIKE Liberty; I like the ability to do, say, buy, give, whatever I WANT because I WANT TO; NOT because Nanny Says.

It may have been easier for me to "take" what I could get; but I would have no self respect. I would be very much like those "evil Goldmann Sachs" thieves, wouldn't I?

It pleases me greatly that I am NOT.

I have very little sympathy for what Marxists called "useful idiots"; the data is there IF you want to take the time to look things up FOR YOURSELF; WHO said WHAT, WHEN and WHERE, and so on. I suppose it is easier to just remember "1" and "99". Nanny will help you fill in the blanks. So many have given so much in the cause of Freedom and Liberty; YES it has warts and is NOT perfect. But where did people WANT to come for 200 years to prosper? And with good reason.

It is your choice what to do, or to do nothing at all.
"Everything is a Poison; it is the amount or degree that separates one Poison from another"
Paracelsus

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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by clewsr » Sun May 20, 2012 11:49 am

I really hope you are a survivalist living in a bunker somewhere, with months worth of dried food and water. That way when the shit hits you really can be self reliant. If not you might find you rely on government services more than you think.

I feel it must be possible for government to deliver better, cheaper services than a private company always taking 20% profit from anything they do. In the UK they invented this thing called PFI - Private Finance Initiative where private companies build schools and hospitals and then lease them back to the government. These are the biggest rip offs ever, and just another example of how capitalism and shit government has screwed the country .

And believe me I'm aware that Goldman Sachs have tentacles around government of the world. That seems to be where the real power lies. I think the current Italian PM in an ex Goldman banker for example

"If you honestly think "The Government" is some benign entity "Only here for our good", you are a fool"

I don't think I ever said that, or implied it. Just that to blame Europes problems purely on socialism (a word you were quite happy to use in the first half of this thread) is missing the big massive elephant in the room; that of corrupt / incompetent government and capitalism hoovering up billions of tax payer's money

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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by semisynthetic » Sun May 20, 2012 11:26 pm

(If you took the "you are a fool" personally, I am sorry; it was a generalized comment; as for "Socialism", I am sometimes baffled at how much people HATE to see or hear it. Maybe, because Socialism IS bad. By the way, the current US Administration is no stranger to Goldmann Sachs, either; nor was the one before it; interesting how Lehman Brothers was just allowed to "die" right before the Gold Sachs was bailed out; maybe a coincidence, what do you think?)

No, I do not live in a bunker; but since I do live in a rural, remote area, I do, like most people who live in such places, stock up on essentials because the "shit hits the fan" in times of storms, or extended bad weather; it would not be very bright to NOT stock up. Perhaps the "Pioneer Spirit" is still alive with individuals who wish to be as Independent as possible. Of course, it makes sense for everyone to have a supply of essentials, including as many weeks or months of savings as you can muster, if you are on your own. It gives peace of mind and a sense of accomplishment, in addition to being practical; I am really NOT that practical, but I do know what hunger is, and cold; so why risk undo suffering?

I live in a nice, but not an overly extravagent home. I had always wanted a place in the country; After so many years working in research, I bought one, and had the house built there. I had worked very hard, and did without for over 30 years, [except for Music] :D , so I could afford it. I found a Beautiful place, Meadows, streams, creeks, a small lake, a large lake, Woodlands and rocky hills and uncounted TREES. My house is fairly hidden as to not hurt the view around it. I take great care of the place, and the wildlife, which is abundant, and Beautiful.

I could never have done this sitting, whining, wanting and waiting for someone to "give" it to me.

Of COURSE I believe in government; I believe in a LIMITED government as outlined by the US Constitution and other brilliant documents and Ideas that made the USA a special place; a place that people all over the world wanted to come to, not escape from. They did NOT come here to become poor.

WHY being "rich" is now "bad", other than to be divisive for the Fall Presidential Campaign, pitting one group against another is beyond me. I know the USA is flawed, I know that things could be better. The Free Market, with MINIMAL intrusion in it by the government is a great start.


The Eurozone, when sold, was a bifurcated Fraud.
It seemed almost comical to me (at the time) that these nations, each with such longstanding national pride and prejudices, could overnight be One big happy Economic Family. The idea seemed naively Idealistic, but the REAL reason, of course was Economic, and that is what drove it to adoption and what will likely drive it into the ground. With the mess in Greece, I would not be surprised to see Spain and Italy run to the banks next. But, the constant pounding by the leaders of European Governments, who smelled money, pushed the idea to reality. Again, Government Politicians "doing what is right". Ha. Nanny Lies a LOT.



Wouldn't Europe be in much better shape, all the way 'round, if the "Eurozone" Idea had been defeated to begin with?
I am interested in your thoughts on this.
"Everything is a Poison; it is the amount or degree that separates one Poison from another"
Paracelsus

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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by redcloud » Mon May 21, 2012 6:11 am

semisynthetic wrote: WHY being "rich" is now "bad", other than to be divisive for the Fall Presidential Campaign, pitting one group against another is beyond me.
It isn't. I do not feel the rich are "bad".

The problem, however, is that in the past four years we have seen the rich and the poor grow while the middle class shrinks. Once the middle class shrinks then the poor have little to aspire to as goals become more unrealistic. Also, the middle class are in a desperate struggle knowing that one pay check could be the difference between poverty or staying in the middle class.

I think the "us" and "them" attitude came to the fore front by the election and re-election of Bush Jr and our eagerness to go to war with Iraq. He was an extremely divisive President. That immediately made people view each other as blue/red, liberal/conservative, for/against. The class issue was exacerbated by the greed that infected this land and in particular by Wall St. and Real Estate. The crash of '08/09 only made matters worse and more tense between the classes. The rich made out like bandits while the middle/lower class were severely affected.

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Re: Eurozone Crackup

Post by semisynthetic » Mon May 21, 2012 8:48 pm



You may not feel that being rich is bad, I'm glad of that, but it is difficult to ignore the storyline put forth on the Sunday shows, Daily News, and in the coordinated "speeches" on the floors of Congress;
IT IS BEING USED AS A DIVISIVE CLASS-WARFARE WEAPON, AND IT SMELLS OF DESPERATION of losing POWER.

Jobs would allow EVERYONE to benefit; but the Free Market Place has been tied up in incredible regulations, and it is no accident; this is a purposeful action; the EPA particularly has been zealous to a point PAST the Ridiculous. Again, too many bureaucrats with too much control with too little oversight or accountability; I do not wish to live in a Technocracy run by individuals deluded into thinking they can run our lives better than We The People. It is time to fire Nanny.

The "Blame Bush" time has long since passed; 'The President owns this economy" was pronounced months ago by Debbie Wasserman Schulz, (not exactly a member of the John Birch Society); she DOES speak on the President's behalf.

It is embarrassing that three and one half years into the administration, "Blame Bush" is still trotted out, but there isn't much left except to trash everyone else; Romney will be trashed for the same reasons; what record CAN the President present that offers the "Hope and Change" that was promised; Oh yeah, sorry, I meant "Forward, Lemmings".

The stadiums that were once filled with screaming "fans" are now eerily quiet and empty; Yep, time to trash everyone else; Forget there hasn't been a budget in 3 years, and remember we are only a few holes of golf away from 100 days! That will set a RECORD! As will the almost SIX TRILLION in debt and 26 TRILLION DEFICIT by 2016, HURRAY! MORE NEW RECORDS! What Planning! What Skill! BUT, If anything goes wrong, remember to blame EVERYONE ELSE.
"Everything is a Poison; it is the amount or degree that separates one Poison from another"
Paracelsus

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