Santorum

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redcloud
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Santorum

Post by redcloud »

I am so fucking disgusted and insulted with this Rick Santorum guy. I wish he would just disappear under the rock where he came from. Who the fuck is he to be turning this campaign into who is the better Christian? I always thought we had the separation of church and state in this country? Amongst the many issues that face America this fuck head seems to only want to talk about religion.

:twisted: :evil: :twisted: :evil:
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Re: Santorum

Post by TheWarmth »

Agreed. Can't stand the guy.
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Re: Santorum

Post by spzretent »

I hope he wins the Republican nomination. He will alienate the moderates and definitely the undecided vote. Not to mention sending the Republicans back to the dark ages.
It is very true that there is a silver lining to every dark cloud.
Google Santorum and see the third entry from the top.
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Re: Santorum

Post by redcloud »

spzretent wrote: Google Santorum and see the third entry from the top.
I saw this....pretty funny story behind that "definition" too.
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Re: Santorum

Post by spzretent »

I cant believe how many staunch Democrats I know turned up today to vote for Santorum just to fuck up the Republicans. On one hand I thinks it funny as hell and tactically smart. On the other, this aint what elections are for.
At least its "my" side being creative.
Unlike the Republicans who just steal elections.
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Re: Santorum

Post by redcloud »

Tactics and best intent aside...there is NO way I could bring myself to vote for that guy. Even if I was doing it with tactical strategy in mind. He's so vile and horrific that I find it amazing and quite scary he is doing as well as he is. But then again, this is the party that have given us some choice people such as Bush Jr, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Palin, Bachman, O'Donnell, Buchanan, Perry, Cain.....and the list of whack jobs just seems to keep growing. :roll:
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Re: Santorum

Post by redcloud »

Did you hear what this asshole said about college education?

Santorum: "President Obama says he wants every person in the USA to go to college. What a snob!"

Since when did getting a better education become a bad thing? Maybe if the people running for President were better educated we wouldn't have assholes like this guy in the mix. What a douche.
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Re: Santorum

Post by jadams501 »

First off, higher education is not an appropriate choice for everyone. U.S. education policy currently assumes that everyone should just go to Yale and everyone will be upper middle class. That's simply not realistic since people have different strengths and weaknesses. And how many cases are there where students took on a huge amount of debt to get a degree that does not make them more employable?

Second, both Republicans and Democrats have documented cases of election tampering. It's inaccurate to blame just one side. It's worth noting that Democrats are the party currently opposing policies to require ID to vote, just like you need to buy alcohol or board a plane. That's arguably the biggest source of voter fraud in America.

Third, Obama sat for 20 years in a church where the pastor would consistently deliver racist rants as sermons, and has not been above linking his political agenda to religious imperatives. Santorum's religious sanctimony is gross but he is hardly the only one abusing Christianity for political gain.

All of that said, I am decidedly not a Santorum supporter and was pleased to see him do poorly in the primaries yesterday.
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Re: Santorum

Post by redcloud »

Nobody is saying one has to go to Harvard or Yale. College can mean many things and can also include two-year community colleges. Ultimately, what Obama was saying was he hoped people would think beyond high school. Also, inner city public schools have a real problem with dropouts. Last year, Portland Public Schools graduated 59% of its students in four years. That was a 5% improvement on 2009-2010. Breaking it down even closer you will see that there is a considerable gap between White, Hispanic and African Americans. That said, I can almost guarantee that these rates will be relatively similar with other medium sized cities across the country. Poverty and all of its multifaceted problems are a major influence on why 41% of high school kids in Portland, a city of 540,000, don't graduate in 4 years or worse, decide to drop out all together.

Let's be frank here...there is no doubt that the better educated you are the more doors will open. Sure, we all know of success stories straight out of high school or even those who dropped out. But, with every success story there are countless others who are stuck in low paying, dead end jobs, or worse, are unemployed. Thus, the cycle of poverty continues for another generation.

So, with that said….why shouldn’t the President share a vision of a country where people want to pursue education beyond high school? If this country is to compete with rising economies such as China and India it HAS to raise its game. The first step to raising ones game is to become better educated.

Is college right for everyone? Of course not. Does it involve costs? Sure it does. But, college can be done without racking up tens of thousands of dollars of debt. Why go out of State to pay more? Why go private if your local public University can offer similar classes? Scholarships, grants, FAFSA etc. etc.

For Santorum to sneer at the thought that every child should have the opportunity to go to college or that every American should have a college education is “snobbery” is beyond me. Education should be celebrated and we as a country should have it as priority #1. It appalls me that for the past four years the education budgets in this country have been slashed to the point that there are 40+ kids in high school classrooms. Or that we have 60+ kids sitting in study halls while classrooms around the schools sit empty. Are we educating or are we warehousing?

This guy, Santorum, is completely reprehensible. Some of the outrageous comments he has come out with are downright offensive and dangerous for this country. The fact that he has been given far more than his 15 minutes is mind boggling.

Regarding Obama’s ex-pastor….that is old news and it was dealt with four years ago. Also, I never once heard anything nearly as asinine, ignorant, nor as inflammatory come out of Obama’s mouth like the words that come out of Santorum's gob.
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Re: Santorum

Post by BzaInSpace »

Presumably Santorum is playing up to the assumed (and ironically completely snobbish itself) viewpoint that your blue-collar, salt of the earth working voter is innately suspicious of anyone who would try or wish to better themselves by means of pursuing further education beyond school. This is simply pandering to unevolved, outmoded 'us-and-them' thinking - in short, it's a crock of shit.

This guy is a disgrace.
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Re: Santorum

Post by burningwheel »

an insane fuckhead
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Re: Santorum

Post by redcloud »

burningwheel wrote:an insane fuckhead
Yep.

It's Interesting how this thread has died. I don't think anybody with a reasonable mind can defend Santorum.

Hopefully the Ohio primary will be the final nail in Santorum's coffin and he will take the message and his outrageous 19th century beliefs and fuck off back to Pennsylvania.
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Re: Santorum

Post by semisynthetic »

The reason it "died" is completely reasonable, and logical.

The demographics of this site do not support him. I see no surprise at all.

I am Politically, at least, quite conservative, and he has no appeal as a presidential candidate to me.

However, I am convinced that the current occupant must go. Why not have a thread that defines the many wonderful,
justifiable, reasons for keeping the current POTUS employed as such?
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Re: Santorum

Post by TheWarmth »

I'm definitely interesting an perusing a presidential election thread.
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Re: Santorum

Post by jadams501 »

The thing about liberalism, and I say this as the child of two 60s activists, is that it paints a picture of the world in which the liberal/progressive agenda is a clear moral imperative. The problem is that the world doesn't always work the way the picture suggests, sometimes with disastrous results. For instance, using the Great Society legislation to "eradicate poverty" seems like a great idea, but it was implemented without regard to basic human nature and actually managed to make poverty worse.

There's a lot of self-congratulation in the liberal world for being open-minded and scientific and smarter than the conservatives, but for the most part it seems that the agenda is driven by emotion and idealism more than constructive thinking about the actual world we live in. At times, that passionate belief in the agenda trumps all reason and becomes a matter of faith, essentially a secular religion. And any religion has its fundamentalists, plenty of which you can see in the Republican primaries right now.

I'm no fan of Santorum, but I wouldn't say he's really that much crazier than Obama or plenty of other respected people in public life.
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Re: Santorum

Post by semisynthetic »

to jadams501

Thank you for a rational, thoughtful analysis devoid of Socially Engineered Groupthink and the corrupting influence of
a so-called higher education. After 30 years of Academia, I saw the "learn HOW to think" de-evolve into "learn WHAT
to think" by the Educational System. Result: an ever increasing loss of Individualism and Self Reliance; and with that, a loss of self esteem and the ability to think rationally, using various "justifications" rather than facts to reach the best answers to complex questions.

An Excellent reply; and I do agree with you; you presented a concise response I am anxious to see answered as intelligently and rationally as it was presented.

I would like to know WHY after 3 1/2 YEARS of continual failures and a downward spiral of almost every segment of this country and society, the current POTUS should be allowed by this nation's people to remain in office when other, more
seasoned and experienced persons are applying for the Office of the Presidency of the United States. What pomises were made by this President, and kept or NOT kept; why not give the current POTUS the "through the ringer" attention under a microscope that he did NOT receive in the last election, with a free-ride by most of the nation's media, or what is left of it; and why not have an open discussion on questionable activities SINCE his election? There is a great deal here to consider, from Solyndra to Keystone, et cetera et cetera et cetera.
Surely THAT is the best way to judge what we HAVE vs what we NEED in a President at this time; do they correlate,
or not? Or, we could just continue to bash the conservatives, that IS easier than thinking through a great deal of mishandled events by a POTUS that the liberal establishment & the would-be socialists have a lot riding on being re-elected, regardless of the consequences to this nation.

Just a thought, and a "thanks" for the writing of jadams501.
I wish I read more well written, intelligently conceived writings, no matter what the position of the writer.
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Re: Santorum

Post by redcloud »

I think we have gone somewhat off topic. This was never a conservative vs. liberal thread. Nor was it a Republican vs. Democrat or Red vs. Blue etc. etc. This is about somebody who is running for President who is so far right wing he has shown objectionable views towards anybody who lives, thinks or acts differently than his beliefs and he has even questioned some of the principals that this country was founded on. His views of religion are so outrageously fundamental that he might as well be part of a Christian sect of the Taliban. This is dangerous for our country and I am shocked that he may resonate with any demographic in a free, diverse country in the 21st century.

I have repeatedly said that the USA needs a viable third party because red, blue, republican, democrat…they have all become as bad as one another.

That said, I do think lately the Republican Party seems to be finding candidates that seem completely out of touch with the vast majority of the country that I know and that I see, talk to and live in. Does Romney really speak to the majority of the country or does he speak to a small fraction that has voting power due to their wealth? Does Paul speak to the majority of the country or is he resonating with the disenfranchised? Clearly Gingrich doesn’t speak to the masses because he has polled far below the others for the past several primaries. Ironically, it is Gingrich though who I think Obama and his supporters are probably glad isn’t the front runner. Gingrich is a tried and tested politician (with baggage!) but he knows how to debate and he could pull some heavy handed punches against Obama.

Of all the Republicans, however, it was Jon Huntsman who seemed to me to be the most intelligent, articulate, reasoned and experienced to honestly be a threat to the current President. I also think he had potential to sway middle of the road Democrats over to the right. But, the Republican Party seemed to not listen to him and instead entertained and sickened us with cartoon characters like Bachman, Perry, Cain and now Santorum. Oh, and lets not forget the “will she or wont she” news frenzy of Palin (and even to a certain extent, Trump).

Unlike semisynthetic though, I do believe Obama deserves another term. That is not to say I have been overly impressed with him nor does it mean I haven't been disappointed. But, I think it is impossible to judge him on four years especially given the economy, which was collapsing before he was elected.

Jadams…a well written post on your behalf and you raise some valid points. On reflection and in hindsight holes may certainly be found in the “Great Society” plan. But one need to only look at George W. Bush's “No Child Left Behind” plan to see that it too may have been born out of a good idea but in reality didn’t work. A diverse public school has many, many issues it must face. Deeply ingrained generational poverty and hunger as well as students who read well below their age group are amongst its biggest obstacles for a school to meet its AYP. Also, AYP is a numbers game while a school is about people and their stories. It is much more than black and white graphs and scientific research. Did you know that the state of California predicts how many prison beds they will need based on how many high school kids read at a 3rd grade or below level? If students can’t read it has a huge knock on effect with literally everything they do. Scandinavia may have kids testing higher than US kids but my guess is that an inner city school in Goteborg or Helsinki will not be anywhere near as diverse (racially or economically) as an inner city school of the same size in the USA. Chances are, that Scandinavian school may also be better funded than its US counterparts. These issues play a massive role in how schools teach and the tools they have and don’t have.

The American Health Care system is also a conversation this country really needs to have. Having lived in the UK for many years and having a British born wife gives me a unique insight into a health care that is accessible to all. Is it perfect? Of course not. But, it is certainly a hell of a lot more sensible, honorable and humane than our current private and highly profitable system. Thankfully, I work full time and have benefits. If benefits were not part of my income I don’t know how I would be able to pay for basic health care such as dental, vision or god forbid….a hospital bill for an unforeseen emergency. But, when we returned to the US from Europe, we (a family of four), lived for 1.5 years without any health care because I didn’t have any benefits with the job I had back then. I cannot even begin to tell you how that felt and the worry of something unexpected happening to one of us. There are millions of stories out there from people who are far less fortunate than I am who have these worries every single day.

This has become a much longer post than I ever expected or intended. But, in coming full circle I hope you realize that none of this is about an “us vs. them” issue. This thread was about a fucking loony (Santorum) that I honestly find hard to stomach and am scratching my head as to whom the hell the “demographic” is that do seem to listen to this wanker.
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Re: Santorum

Post by TheWarmth »

Perhaps we should start a new thread about the election. It's looking like Romney is going to be the Republican candidate, not Santorum. I need to educate myself about Romney.
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Re: Santorum

Post by runcible »

I am no expert on American politics but the clips I have seen of Santorum made my stomach churn to think that guy could be running the USA one day. Gold help us.
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Re: Santorum

Post by burningwheel »

republicans only care about you before you are born and if you are healthy. Santorum even has a sick child

". Instead, Rick Santorum chimed in his agreement by arguing that the health care law would ration care based on the ‘usefulness’ of an individual."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2 ... -care-lie/

i cant believe you compare him to obama, i'm not saying obama is the greatest president but still..
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Re: Santorum or Why Obama is so Great

Post by semisynthetic »

I am rarely shocked by ANYTHING I hear resonating with an increasingly ill-informed electorate. I Should be shocked by the Eugenics of the 19th century being resurrected by this Administration, as I Listened to Ms. Sebelius, formerly of Kansas, in front of a House Committee a few days ago. When I think of all those people who were so “offended” by The Dead Kennedy’s “Kill the Poor”, and here it is; make certain by any means necessary (common w/ this crowd) that poor folks get that pill OR we will have even MORE expensive poor folks. THAT did not affect you, or were you not aware of that particular tentacle of obamacare? I have heard the words that made it clear several times, and read the Congressional Record, because I will not feel comfortable with just one source; except in this case I DID hear with my own ears and watch with my own eyes. THAT testimony, before the Ways and Means Committee, is about as 5th century as I have heard in sometime. Not only is it immoral, more importantly, it is in direct defiance of the First Amendment. But we mustn’t let that get in the way, must we?
I am increasingly aware that little if anything I say or write to the True Believers; to those hooked on the Ideology of the Left, will change their minds.

So, I again ask, WHY should this POTUS be re-elected? Purely Ideological grounds? Is that really enough for you? The Nation continues in a downward spiral, whether purposefully or by someone in charge who has never really been in charge of anything. Aren’t you just conscious enough of the trouble we are in to see that the current POTUS is not doing us a bang up job? And PLEASE, if you MUST say “Bush” in your reply, make it a berry bush or something other than the previous POTUS; it has been 3 ½ YEARS. “Obama OWNS this Economy” that comes from the head of the DNC, not my fevered imagination. Use THAT as your starting point and ending point. And end all of this comparing THIS Nation to little tiny countries with a GDP of the last 10 minutes (USA). There are complexities at work here that MORE government, with all of those unintended consequences cannot BEGIN to correct. If “The Great Society” is mentioned, tell us why it worked so “well”, don’t use battalogy, as a means of argument or of answers, it is a failed methodology; another remnant of poor schooling; tell us WHY it failed or not. And lastly, let us suppose that a third Party is NOT in the offing this time round because the Country IS so polarized; between those who think and act like government can answer all our problems BETTER than we can. I say that it cannot, it does not, and like a parasitic organism, government will feed OFF of You until another suitable host is found; but if OUR Debt reaches 103% of our GDP, what happens then? Why did not ONE Democrat vote for the President’s Last budget? It awed them with Brilliance so they were blinded? Or was the writing on the wall as Mr. Bernanke pointed out the other day, and towing the Party Line, suggested another stimulus. Great. That IS GOOD THINKING! Can you say “Wiemar Republik”? Do you know what that was, where that was, when that was? Chaos and misery that led to far more chaos and misery was the result of deflation of currency. Have you ever seen a Trillion unit note? They were used in Jugoslavia to buy FOOD. Have you ever held a $1000.00 bill? Why Not?
Have you read "Nudge"? That 'ol sweet Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals"? Clowar and Piven? WHY NOT or WHY?
Why did the DOW Drop 203.66 points again Today? This is important, maybe boring, but some of you found Calculus worse.

So, PLEASE, Tell me all of the Wonderful things, in YOUR OWN words that this Administration has done, and HOW does the state of this Country compare NOW than 3.5 years ago; PLEASE, don’t use your “feelings”, use a method called “factual analysis” and put the statistics in the file can, unless you cite a reference; I am TRYING to have someone convince me WHY this current POTUS should remain such, and I haven’t read a THING that is logical, complete, or analytical; all I see is the NEA at work; (or more likely on break) picketing "for the Children" the pensions have Nothing to do with it!
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Re: Santorum

Post by redcloud »

Semisynthetic…I’m not taking the bait on this one. I said in my long winded reply above that this was never a “Republican vs Democrat” thread. Nor was I using this forum to campaign for Obama, the Democrats or the left wing. I simply made a comment about a Republican candidate who I am deeply, deeply worried by.

Your reply - equally long winded, however, seems to be both angry and condescending. It highlights the HUGE divide we face in this country and how polarized we as a nation have become.

So, in the end…it does not matter what I or anybody else may write in response to your post. It is quite clear to me from the words you choose to use when writing that you will find ways to belittle or mock any differing opinions as being “ill informed”. Personally, I find this very insulting to my education…especially considering you know nothing of my education, my background, what I do for a living, what I read or anything else about me for that matter.

I will leave it at that.
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Re: Santorum and Why Obama is So Great

Post by semisynthetic »

Ok, I'm not Bright,

Just tell me, Tell ANYONE, WHY should the Current Resident of the Whitehouse be re-elected?
Point by Point; and if I sound condescending, it is not directed at you or anyone else; I just keep hearing a
drumbeat of what is WRONG with all the rest, and hardly a full sentence on the merits of their opponent's
accomplishments, mistakes or outright purposefully negative actions; I WAS asking if you or anyone else pro or con had read some of these books that are the "New Way" over on 1600 Pennsylvania Blvd.

No trap, not a thing like it; a reasonably SIMPLE question.

I was not angry; perhaps you have noticed a distinctly skewed reporting and writing that the Left is Brilliant, and Conservatives say "git-er-done" all day; "stick to their God and guns"; and more language so very crude I won't repeat it; Everyday, that is what someone more conservative deals with; maybe my writing reflects a thicker skin because of that; (again), just a simple supposition and not a comment in reference to ANYONE who may take offense. Wow.

I don't care what you do or don't do, for reasons of conversation and opinion; I only asked about these "tomes" because of their inherent nature, and since the Alinsky book is dedicated to "Satan", AND is on the NEA "must read" list, I took a swipe at them for their contribution to the de-evolution of a once great educational system. Anyone can have an opinion, I just would like to have some idea WHY that person has that opinion; some of the wisest and most informative words I have heard regarding this election and the mess we are in, was from a farmer, over coffee the other day. I can't stand coffee, so I had a Pepsi; (and not one person at the table was angered, by the way). This guy has $3,000,000.00 riding on hard work, the weather, and luck; he does not need an EPA out of control; he told me in detail, more than I had read in Anything other than the Congressional Record. How that man, and families of every means, rich and poor alike, are being subjugated by an out of control regulation crazed government, headed by the fellow that a lot of you say you will vote for, but won't say why. Weird.
I AM pleased to see that some people on this site are at least interested enough to want to know MORE; not just know MORE of the same; they wish to educate THEMSELVES, which is what Individual Thought and Responsiblity is all about.
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Re: Santorum

Post by jadams501 »

My political evolution was winding enough that I've held a lot of different positions before arriving at where I seem to have settled. But I think I tend to understand where people are coming from and why it is important to them.

The only hope in slowing the decline of civilization is to act like adults and treat others like adults, too.

Re: Obama and Santorum, I don't agree with many of Santorum's beliefs but then again I don't agree with plenty of Obama's, either. He rammed through lobbyist-written health care legislation with blatantly false promises about it breaking even and us having enough physicians in the foreseeable future to treat everyone. The whole thing's going to be an expensive disaster. For Santorum to believe that Satan is real isn't crazier than if Obama genuinely thought that bill was a good decision. And there are plenty of other cases where Obama's course of action is similarly insane. Which isn't to say I necessarily have high expectations for his opponent, whomever that turns out to be.
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Re: Santorum? and Civility.

Post by semisynthetic »

To simply ask "WHY" the POTUS should be re-elected seems harmless enough. I know I will not be voting for him;
I simply asked why whoever was, would. And as to what any of you have read; well, it can inform all of us as to WHY such a choice was made; perhaps you have persuasive data.

If my language was too "uncivil", I am certainly regretful of that; but I still would like to know the answer to my question. It is not a trap to simply ask why. It was certainly not intended to be one; I still find that concept, well, odd.

I used to have great fun with spirited debate, when we thought we had made our points, we "changed" sides. It was great fun, and sometimes, we changed our minds. There was no talking points site, our minds were open, no one was entrenched; not in their reasoning, anyway. Maybe their core values, but not reasoning. It is no fault or weakness to change one's mind, nor to explain the reasoning of it.

So much for civil discourse between citizenry. Sad; and indicative.


That's All Folks!
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Re: Santorum? and Civility.

Post by redcloud »

semisynthetic wrote: I used to have great fun with spirited debate, when we thought we had made our points, we "changed" sides. It was great fun, and sometimes, we changed our minds.
The problem is semi, you came into this thread very accusatory, pointing fingers, very condescending and very, very angry. Much like you did in the Eurozone thread that pissed a lot of the UK folk off.

As I said above...your mind is made up. it does not matter what I or anybody else may add. You will still find fault in it. And, I will state again...this thread was never a "Vote Obama" or a "Pro-Democrat" thread. It is you who interpreted it as such. The thread was simply started out of serious concern for one particular candidate who just so happens to be a Republican. I would be saying the same thing if he was a Democrat. Do I want Rick Santorum's extreme, fundamental idea of religion to reign over this country? Hell no! Why would anybody want that?

But, one thing that does continue to annoy me is this rather flippant comment you made:
semisynthetic wrote:all I see is the NEA at work; (or more likely on break) picketing "for the Children" the pensions have Nothing to do with it!
As a teacher in an impoverished inner city school this really pisses me off. This argument is such old hat and it totally bores me. It stems out of ignorance and from those who haven’t spent any time whatsoever with any K-12 educator. Walk into my school and I guarantee you will not last a week let alone a day.

My day? Well, I spent 45 minutes writing a last minute college recommendation for a student who came in at 7:45am and needed it by 9am. I then talked to and had lunch with a 16 year old kid who was abused as a child and is now addicted to heroin and is trying their hardest to get clean. That counseling session has been ongoing since September. I spent another half hour meeting with a past student who left two years ago, writing a reference for them and then speaking to their potential future employer for a further 20 minutes. I finished writing a grant that will help me buy some much needed equipment for my students. On top of this...I taught my classes that all have 40+ kids in them. Now, after I finish drinking my tea and reading a bit of brain relaxing "music/forum" talk I will cook dinner and then grade 45 papers and make a PowerPoint before tomorrow.

So, don't you fucking dare say that I do my job simply for a pension. What respect I did have for you was lost when you said those words (as well as the other flippant comment "I don't care what you do or don't do"). Oh, and by the way...I only pay my union dues because I have to. If I didn't have to I might choose otherwise.

Regarding Obama....I'm not going to sit here and list everything that I as a voter am looking at and why I am voting for him just so you or somebody else can pick it apart. If we were in a bar discussing face to face we could have this discussion. But, you and I would have a relationship other than a love of music and we could discuss these things with a mutual respect even if we agreed to disagree. In the anonymity of the web it is far to easy for somebody to hide behind a keyboard and monitor and be insulting thinking they "won" a debate. Life is too fucking short, brother.

One thing I will say that affects my life...the economy was tanking before Obama came in. Remember that? All you need to do is cast yourself back to the 2007/8 debates to know that the economy, the wars and health care were pretty much the number one issues discussed. Portland in 2009 was at 12+% unemployment. We are now at just over 8%. Things are clearly getting better and the feeling of desperation that once hovered above us like the thick rain clouds seem to be leaving this city. I can't speak for Detroit residents, but I expect the lifeline that was given to the Auto giants has had a tremendous effect on their city too.

These are certainly positives if one looks past the hatred and the cynicism. Question is...can you?
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Re: Sanitarium

Post by semisynthetic »

You had quite a day.

Maybe this little letter will clear up a few bruises and my confusing writing. I Hope.
Whenever I say to (anyone) "I don't care what you do", especially in THIS TYPE OF case, it is simply to say, whatever that is, is just great, I just want your opinion. I am interested in what the fellow who cuts my lawn thinks as much as the opinions of anyone else. What you do really doesn't matter to me; THAT was the context, maybe poorly written, maybe just misinterpreted. I have asked maybe 100 people from all over the US the same question I posed to you; NOT to try to eviscerate you verbally, but to understand WHY, that is all. Would I have commented, probably; it would have depended upon the reasoning you gave; and since you did not wish that give and take, I understand your refusing to answer.
You are ABSOLUTELY right; I have no doubt whatsoever that face to face we would get along just fine; the time lag between conversations, the misinterpretations by either side, the stylistics of how one writes all add up to a certain "distance". I am very GLAD you shared what you do for a living, your vocation; it does help put what you have said, and not said, in a perspective that is both appreciated and helpful. I don't think I am as big of a son of a bitch as you might have believed; I hope these comments are clearer; there is no hidden meaning or jesting; this is an absolute "I am glad to be better informed and read about a real person and their day than simply a less informative, abstract "nickname", but instead, something much closer to who you really are". My comments on the NEA, by the way, were part of a larger writing I omitted; and thus the simplistic slap without context I mention later on in this revision of what I attempted last night. Having taught for as long as I did, well I do think we have more in common than heretofore has been exposed, Thanks for the Detail.

P.S. The "I don't care what you do" does sound very bad, but since I have an incredibly broad and diverse group of people myself to deal with, one is easily annoyed by a "big shot" who wants in line first, that kind of idea; NOT a disrespecting attack on whatever your work entails. (The other day, a congressman called, but my kids were on the phone with a problem regarding school; so you can understand that I politely asked him to call back, because my priorities are clear regarding my kids, and he sounded pissed, because of his "self importance", as I see it. But, he called back). In retrospect, I would have used a less curt or unkind sounding remark when none was intended regarding that simple phrase, "I don't care what you do" (for a living when I just want your opinion). Face to face, that would have been cleared up in 20 seconds. I must admit, I am sometimes too quick with an obtuse remark that can be misinterpreted; your opinion is JUST as important to me as is anyone else's. In fact, knowing what I know NOW, your opinion would have carried extra weight; you are in the trenches and I applaud that, it is often a thankless task, isn't it? But please read on.

Addition to last nights quick response:

I am as imperfect as anyone else; and I will tell you that despite all those years in Academia and other work, and as improbable as you will likely think it, I never used email. I had HUNDREDS of useless reminders and distractions daily that wasted time, so I ignored it; I simply refused to be bothered. In fact, when the IT fellow, the person who was in charge of keeping the email and computers straight for the university retired, he was waiting in my lab when I left one day, and "wanted to meet the guy with ?30X,000? (more or less), unread messages. I didn't "do" email; I used the phone, face-to-face meetings, notes (on paper), and because of certain projects, I used couriers. Maybe that is one reason my communication skills in this medium are still so flawed; I tend to write with the sharp edge of the pen, and there is no pen! Maybe that is why I am talking into the mouse. :)

When I first read your posting, I had already taken a call from a former student; now a research chemist; who had, in a very convoluted manner, volunteered for 1 year to teach at the High School level, and was beside herself. Very interesting timing; but unfortunate, nevertheless. She was experiencing the types of problems you discussed; difficult, gut wrenching problems that seem to have no clear path to absolute solution; this is not what this person is used to. I listened for 2 hours, in total; and the best I could do was to offer reassurance and to remember what I have told all of my PhD students, call me. Sometimes it is good to have a caring ear to hear one vent their problems; and that was the best I could do. Besides, she had made a commitment, and that had to be honored. (Military)

EARLIER, I had ANOTHER call, from my niece who had moved to another state, with an ongoing problem which prompted my writing an uncomplimentary and specific letter about the NEA. Her "teacher" was not a teacher. Unlike you, and many others, this teacher saw it apparently only as a job with a pension, and was out picketing (again). For over a month, several months ago, I had been helping my niece, by phone and fax, DAILY, with Algebra, Calculus (and Chemistry). It did my niece and her classmates little good at all to have their instructors out picketing for pensions. Having a file of clippings and other data in front of me about that mess did little to endear me to certain aspects of the leadership and many members of the NEA; HAD I known that YOU are a teacher, I would NOT have included that flippant comment. I will again plead guilty to attempted humor, or to release of a certain, immediate frustration that was interwoven with a much broader problem I see and have seen in education. I observed too many GOOD teachers replaced because a school needed "all PhD's" to look better for marketing purposes, and I found that abhorrent. I have always had a love/hate relationship with Academia; I truly LOVE what I did, but despised where I did it. THAT is why I finally took a different position, doing Research at a different facility, but with the caveat that I be able to teach the Advanced Medicinal Synthesis class; over the years it had been shortened and made less frequent for a number of reasons, none of them good. It was a very difficult class by the very nature of it, and took a great deal of time, and was extremely expensive to operate, even when MOST of everything used was from my laboratories. You see, I Truly enjoyed teaching. Generally, as Professor, I would have simply taught theory, went back to MY laboratories, while the class went on to flounder in their lab while babysitted by a Grad Student. I changed all of this for MY class, and there was only one class; not a "recipe-like-boring-out-of-the-book material, but syntheses that were going on upstairs; much more interesting, cutting edge, and complex. And importantly to many students, there was the Medicinal aspect. There was never a Grad student, only myself and the class. I enjoyed that very much. It was the Ideal method to teach such material.

I had noticed over the years, that student’s skills in Mathematics and logic were weaker with each incoming class; and since this was the FIRST Grad Level class they would take, and the LAST class for a Bachelors Degree, that point concerned me greatly. So for the real achievers, the students who wanted to go to Med school or Graduate School, or just LEARN, I added, 3 days a week, Graded and Checked outside class work, but ungraded (for the book). The Philosophy of teaching; the pedagogy and the preparation of students for more advanced work has changed dramatically over the years. Of course, there was no "compensation" for this, other than knowing I was helping those people who wanted that help, and went on to realize their dreams. With where they were at without that "extra, non-listed class", they would have had a very tough time. The letters and calls I have received over the years were my recompense, better than Gold.

From 1st Grade ON, I was taught that the Individual and one's Individuality were of the utmost importance, and this core thought was supplemented by a quote that hung in the Hallway of every school I attended until University. "Learn HOW to Think, not WHAT to Think". That simple, yet clearly defined statement had a profound effect on more than just Education; it also meant that as an Individual, you were responsible for your actions, and the consequences of those actions. I write all of these things for you, in order to explain a specific and detestable event I experienced upon entering University. I was 17, and visiting the College I had chosen, (I only applied to one, so I could be nearer my grandparents, who by that time needed ME, instead of the other way round). At this "Introduction" which I later termed "Indoctrination", I saw a familiar but strangely altered version of the sign I had seen so many times over the years; it read "You should Teach them WHAT to learn, not HOW to learn". I was amused at first at the error, or arrogance and the choice of that particular quote. The sign had a "National Association of Teachers" logo and wording; (remember, this was some time ago). When I approached someone about the sign, they were strangely indignant, at least I thought so. Well, I went right to the top, made an appointment, and commented on that sign, because, you see, the distasteful humor I “saw” was that this sign was a direct quote of an English translation from Adolf Hitler; I was not going to follow the perverted dictates of Hitler! So, I made this clear by placing photos of the sign, citations and copies of the original quotations, along with photos of the actual documents, and hung them about the school. Well, the Teachers Association saw their error! And what did they do? They made a NEW sign, reworded it to say essentially the same thing, but did not directly quote Hitler. Great. My view of that type of union is unchanged, the more I learn about the way things operate, and which teachers get booted while sometimes the dregs are retained seems at the very least, difficult to explain or defend, ergo, my "flippant comment".

Anyway, I hope that this email letter has been insightful, and helpful to better understanding my point of view and foibles. Unlike a REAL CONVERSATION, where a phrase can be immediately corrected, or go in one ear and out the other, these letters do not, which is obvious; but it DOES explain to me why I have seen so many postings, with such carefully worded, short postings, very unlike the off-the-cuff remarks I might have expected in a discussion. I spent a lifetime with back and forth, with argument to clearly explain a theory or actual synthesis, none of which were simple, and the writing style was probably made somewhat confrontational, because I am a true empiricist, I want to see the information that supports any argument, and I try to be clear, but not not necessarily concise; some habits are hard to change, not that I want to. But purposely or purposefully hurt someone? NO. I think if I wished to attempt being cruel and unkind, it would not be at all impossible, but it would not be me. My manner may be gruff, or my writing a bit rough, but never intentionally unkind. It would be a wonderful thing to actual meet more of the people on this site that I communicate with and have made friends, I suppose in a way that is new to me; the idea of "virtual" friends, but nevertheless, I have; and I enjoy this site and the people on it. :D

Have a Great Day,
(and please overlook any errors;
I must have edited this 10 times or more between calls!)

semisynthetic.
"Everything is a Poison; it is the amount or degree that separates one Poison from another"
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Re: Santorum

Post by toomilk »

When has a US presidential election ever been about the electing the best person for the job? Give me a fucking break.

Plain and simple: Obama should be reelected because of the fucking nutjobs he's running against. There's seriously nothing here to discuss.
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Re: Santorum

Post by runcible »

toomilk wrote:Plain and simple: Obama should be reelected because of the fucking nutjobs he's running against. There's seriously nothing here to discuss.
That seems to sum up the feelings of many people in the UK. Nicely put!
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Re: Santorum

Post by jadams501 »

toomilk wrote:Plain and simple: Obama should be reelected because of the fucking nutjobs he's running against. There's seriously nothing here to discuss.
With all due respect, toomilk, that kind of thinking and discourse is a huge problem. To swoop in and say "Vote Obama because the other guys are 'fucking nutjobs'" essentially absolves him of scrutiny or accountability for his record. There are MANY things to discuss, even if one supports him.

Obama takes great pains to appear reasonable and competent, and an overwhelmingly friendly mainstream press does their best to assist him, but the problem is that if you scratch the surface of his sunny rhetoric and look at the nuts & bolts of his policies, they are every bit as insane as anything the Republicans are saying. The healthcare bill that I mentioned in a previous post, his energy policy, his stance on immigration, wanting to manufacture college degrees for all, his tax policy, etc. are all so absurdly unrealistic and unsustainable that he's either utterly incompetent, frighteningly deluded, or trying to bribe special interests into supporting his reelection -- probably some troubling mix of the three.

For whatever reason, Obama is generally given the benefit of the doubt that "he's trying" to make things better. Where's the evidence? It isn't enough to claim to be trying to help someone -- you also need intelligent policies to make the rhetoric reality. He raises people's expectations with unrealistic promises and then vilifies the people who point that out. He's every bit as corrupt as Bush was, but he wants to put us in even more debt.

Of course, presidential races are generally about choosing the lesser of evils, and plenty of smart people will choose Obama, but plenty of smart people will choose the republican instead. It isn't an open and shut case, and saying that there's nothing to discuss only makes our system more dysfunctional.
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Re: Santorum

Post by redcloud »

TheWarmth wrote:Perhaps we should start a new thread about the election. It's looking like Romney is going to be the Republican candidate, not Santorum.
I wouldn't call it a done deal for Romney. Certainly not after last week and tonight.

The Republican party is clearly divided between Romney and Santorum. Mitt is winning the northern and western states while Santorum takes the bible belt states in the central midwest and the south. After Santorum's win in Kansas and tonight in Alabama and Mississippi it looks to me that Romney's campaign has taken several step backwards. Especially considering how much he spent in comparison to the others. I will be surprised if Gingrich is still in the race by the weekend. Considering Newt is a southern boy he must be disappointed with tonight's results.

The more the Republicans beat each other up or endorse somebody as extreme and as far right as Santorum the harder it will be for them to unite in November.

And, whether you like it or not....all of this ultimately helps Obama with his reelection.
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Re: Santorum

Post by Ian »

toomilk wrote:When has a US presidential election ever been about the electing the best person for the job? Give me a fucking break.

Plain and simple: Obama should be reelected because of the fucking nutjobs he's running against. There's seriously nothing here to discuss.
Sad but true. In the last UK election, I felt that Labour had made too many errors and had moved too far away from their principles that they didn't deserve a vote. On paper, the Lib Dems were more socialist that Labour, so I voted for them.

Fucking hell. Never again. Sometimes you have to consider the consequences of ideological purity. In the real world, "the best of a bad lot" may be necessary for the greater good.
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Re: Santorum

Post by jadams501 »

Ian -- it seems to me that socialism is only as good as the politicians and bureaucrats you entrust to administer the system. In America, there is not a critical mass of people to run such a system sustainably or intelligently -- do you think it's different in the UK?
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Re: Santorum

Post by Ian »

We don't have a serious socialist party, mores’ the pity, but there are enough remnants in the Labour movement to make me broadly sympathetic to it. I'm certainly not claiming that there are perfect specimens of humanity waiting to implement it. All politics is carried out through the distorting mirror of human imperfection. But I'd rather support a party that I can believe is on the side of, for example, universal health care, free at point of contact, and a real safety net for the most vulnerable in society.

However bad things may be here on some issues, everything I see about political debate in the US terrifies me. I suspect that I'm just seeing the worst aspects of Republicanism, but all this self-centred, personal enrichment and screw the rest, and religious bullshit is just crazy. I mean, I'm not on the right, but if I were, I'd be embarrassed to have any one of the candidates from that side of the spectrum as a potential president. I'm hoping that there are enough sensible US citizens that Obama will just walk back in by default, when compared to the opposition, but the fact that Santorum can win anything (even get any votes at all) is hideous.
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Re: Santorum

Post by redcloud »

No matter what I feel about Santorum...I AM very sorry that his daughter is ill. Politics aside the health of a child is another thing all together and it's a very sad situation for them.

That said, for him to state this as the reason he is now dropping out of the Presidential race is somewhat suspect timing given that Romney pretty much has the thing wrapped up. His daughter's illness has been an issue for awhile and he even spent time at the hospital back in January. If this was the real reason he is suspending his campaign one would have thought he would have dropped out when she first went to the hospital. My guess is that Santorum has finally realized (as has Gingrich) that the delegate race is now too far in Romney's corner and neither of them can catch him.

As glad as I am to see the back of Santorum, I do wish his daughter well. I have a sneaking suspicion we might see him again though as Romney's VP choice.
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Re: Santorum

Post by jadams501 »

I think that the institutional pressure from behind the scenes for Santorum to drop out has to have been immense, and unless he somehow pulled a massive victory in Pennsylvania (his home state) he didn't have any realistic path to the nomination. By dropping out yesterday he could cut his losses and hope for a comeback in the future, whereas continuing probably would have alienated a lot of his potential backers.

I don't think that we'll see Santorum as VP though. The core of Romney's strength as a candidate is that he's a moderate and will be very difficult for Obama to paint as "extreme." Picking Santorum might energize the conservative base to some extent (though they don't love him and were supporting him as the strongest non-Romney candidate) but it would also alienate a lot of independents in the mushy middle who might otherwise give Romney a chance. I expect his VP choice will be a telegenic fiscal conservative without a whole lot of baggage in their record.
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Re: Santorum

Post by BzaInSpace »

Thank fuck for that.
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Re: Santorum

Post by clewsr »

Santorum the man who manages to make Palin seem like a moderate and sensible candidate.
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Re: Santorum

Post by burningwheel »

clewsr wrote:Santorum the man who manages to make Palin seem like a moderate and sensible candidate.
LOL. well if she actually ran i suspect she'd be crazier than a loon!
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Re: Santorum

Post by taikonaut »

Ian wrote:everything I see about political debate in the US terrifies me. I suspect that I'm just seeing the worst aspects of Republicanism, but all this self-centred, personal enrichment and screw the rest, and religious bullshit is just crazy. I mean, I'm not on the right, but if I were, I'd be embarrassed to have any one of the candidates from that side of the spectrum as a potential president.
I´m also terrified by americans but I love big parts of their culture so I don´t want to ignore their politics completely.
My solution is to only follow US political issues filtered through the minds of stephen colbert and jon stewart.. biased and skewed and whatever but it works for me.
still afraid of americans though.. :lol:
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Re: Santorum

Post by redcloud »

taikonaut wrote:
I´m also terrified by americans but I love big parts of their culture so I don´t want to ignore their politics completely.
What an idiotic, xenophobic statement. It is made all the more ridiculous when you keep spending your money and your time on absorbing our culture.

Oh yea, I forgot...it's trendy to be "anti-American". :roll:
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Re: Santorum

Post by spzretent »

taikonaut wrote: still afraid of americans though.. :lol:
BOO!
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Re: Santorum

Post by taikonaut »

:lol:

I am a scared little rabbit - nothing trendy about that afaik
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Re: Santorum

Post by redcloud »

The irony is taikonaut...when you write things like that it actually sounds like something Santorum or Palin might say about other cultures.
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Re: Santorum

Post by jadams501 »

redcloud wrote:The irony is taikonaut...when you write things like that it actually sounds like something Santorum or Palin might say about other cultures.
I don't think either of them have ever said anything along that line -- if they did we would never have heard the end of it. It's kind of sad (and this is in no way directed at you, RedCloud) that people can't disagree about complex policy issues without vilifying each other.
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Re: Santorum

Post by taikonaut »

I wrongfully assumed it was a given in a thread called Santorum.. but should of course have specified that I´m terrified thinking about what american politicians might decide to use the american "defence" for.. my bad.. it was meant in the context of this thread (ie Santorum and the republican race as well as the outcome of the upcoming presidential election) but it looks like it was preposterous assuming everyone would get that?

I´m not frightened by any culture or people (ok perhaps a little by spzretent..)
redcloud wrote:The irony is taikonaut...when you write things like that it actually sounds like something Santorum or Palin might say about other cultures.
When exactly did they say they love iranian culture and try to sample their national and international politics every day?

Nah... santorum would say; Let´s bomb them. Oh, right.. he actually did say that. :shock:

Palin doesn´t exactly have a broad knowledge of other cultures, but she wants the american economy to get better so the war against Iran can be won... wtf? ..not exactly expressing their love there, are they?
redcloud wrote: ridiculous when you keep spending your money and your time on absorbing our culture.
If being terrified of politicians like those above means it´s ridiculous for me to buy records by, for example, mc5, then I am very proud to be ridiculous!
(everyone knows the MC5 were warmongering "patriots", best friends with McNamara and the CIA and backed up the Vietnam war, right? :roll: )
..but if you truly thought I meant that I am afraid of the average american Joe then you can ignore the above..

I will continue to "absorb" or be inspired by any culture I wish, especially the american which happens to be largest "cultural melting pot" experiment in history.. and I find this very interesting and sociologically important to humanity since I don´t believe in concepts like "race" or isolationism (although there are exceptions for the latter)

I am afraid of politicians and military complexes of other nations as well.. but they don´t belong to superpowers holding the world record among aggressors for the last.. 60 years or so.
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Re: Santorum

Post by runcible »

taikonaut wrote:I´m not frightened by any culture or people (ok perhaps a little by spzretent..)
Very wise. He's been terrifying me for years. :roll:
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Re: Santorum

Post by BzaInSpace »

HAHAHA!

:lol:
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Re: Santorum

Post by spzretent »

:evil: :twisted: :evil: :twisted: :evil: :twisted: :evil: :twisted: :evil: :twisted: :shock:
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Re: Santorum

Post by redcloud »

Taikonaut, the problem is that it's very easy to type something while behind a computer without thinking about consequences or how they may be interpreted by others. There is no inflection in your typed words nor is their tone of speech or body language. So how can we “assume” otherwise? To simply type “I’m afraid of Americans” clearly does not have the intent of everything else you have since typed above. Did I take it that you are afraid of “every Joe American”? No. But, I do think it has become all too accepted, common and trendy to be “anti-American”. I can only imagine what the backlash would be if an American on this public forum said a sweeping generalized comment about another culture or race. I would hope that they too would be pulled up on it.

I can’t defend Santorum or Palin as I am appalled and embarrassed by both of them too. If you read through this thread you will clearly see my concern and worry about these politicians. But, on the opposite end of the political spectrum, even the MC5 got tired of John Sinclair and moved away from his "dope, guns and fucking in the streets" manifesto and radical leftist politics.

I’m glad, however, that you want to continue absorbing American culture. Our economy likes your money.
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