Music formats - cassettes, vinyl and beyond

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runcible
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Re: anyone going to see White Hills in UK or Europe?

Post by runcible »

MattBenn wrote:We had copies of our 12" for sale, which we sold a load of...

I despise CDs as a format, and we have nothing to put on a CD-R worth selling. We self-released a live tape so we had more stuff to sell at shows, and they went straight away. There'll be two split 7"s and an album all out in 2012, for the merch hungry.
On Thursday? I must have missed those.

Sadly many people nowadays are slaves to CDs and the digital format. As I get older I have less time to sit and play vinyl like the old days. I tend to put whatever music I buy onto my iPod and play it through my full stereo. Most of the music I play is when I am cooking or eating and I rarely get the chance to sit down and just listen. The sins of the older genereation I guess...
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Re: anyone going to see White Hills in UK or Europe?

Post by sunray »

olan wrote:I did pinch Ego's set list.
Is that a euphemism? :wink:
MattBenn wrote:I despise CDs as a format, and we have nothing to put on a CD-R worth selling. We self-released a live tape
See, you've lost a customer here right away. I think tapes are a ridiculous format and i can't understand why people are bringing them back. If you had that live material on cd i'd buy it but no way on tape, or download for that matter.
runcible wrote: Most of the music I play is when I am cooking or eating and I rarely get the chance to sit down and just listen. The sins of the older genereation I guess...
This is why I have such a backlog of music as i can't listen to something, especially for the first time, without giving it my full concentration. :( :roll:
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Re: anyone going to see White Hills in UK or Europe?

Post by TheWarmth »

Welrd, I don't know anyone with a cassette deck, but everyone still has cd players. I'm with Sunray on this one. Whenever I see tapes at merch tapes I'm dumbfounded. I haven't looked into how much it costs to produce them, but surely it can't be less than a cd. Also, you can pop a cd into your computer and rip it to mp3 format.
redcloud
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Re: anyone going to see White Hills in UK or Europe?

Post by redcloud »

MattBenn wrote:
CDs are so void nowadays. I can't remember the last time I saw someone with a portable CD player. Everyone has an mp3 player for on-the-go listening, and the majority of stereos, TVs, cars etc now have jack inputs, to connect your mp3 player to, which suggests that the only time that most people touch a purchased CD is when they're ripping it into iTunes. And if you do really need a CD for car or whatever, burn your free download onto a 20p CD-R.
This is exactly what people said about tapes in the 90's. At one point in the early 80's the record stores had as many, if not more, cassettes as they did records. Then the cd came out and the tape became obsolete and vinyl was relegated to the record fairs or used record stores inhabited by obsessive collectors only.

Shit, I still have a TON of cassettes...maybe 1000 tapes just of Dead shows alone and then there are plenty more Maxell 90's of various comps, albums etc. that I recorded or was given back in high school. So, I definitely need a cassette deck. But, when we left England and returned to the States I had to buy a new stereo and I literally couldn't find a decent used cassette deck, let alone a new one. Eventually the manager at a really great used audio store in town called me and said he had a decent one that came in and they completely refurbished it and were willing to give it to me for free as I was the only person in a very long time who was inquiring about a tape deck! But, these days I would never choose to buy music on cassette.

Recently, I too have seen a lot of indie bands in Portland self releasing their music on tapes. They tend to be placed by the till at the record store, sold at street fairs and at gigs etc.

It seems more to the point that a younger generation who did not grow up with cassettes are now latching on to them simply for the retro factor.
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Re: anyone going to see White Hills in UK or Europe?

Post by sunray »

redcloud wrote: It seems more to the point that a younger generation who did not grow up with cassettes are now latching on to them simply for the retro factor.
BOOM! Nailed it right there Redcloud.
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Re: anyone going to see White Hills in UK or Europe?

Post by redcloud »

Matt, I think your intentions are commendable. All I am saying is…as a music buyer for nearly 40 years I personally wouldn’t spend the money on a tape, however, I would buy a record or cd/cd-r. I think most people in this forum would agree as more people still own cd players than they do a tape deck. You will definitely get your music into the hands of more music lovers if you produced a cd-r/vinyl and the "product" on the cd-r doesn't have to be compromised.
Our line of thought was that we'd be able to put more into the packaging and art (screen printing, inserts etc) with a tape than a CD-R. Nowadays anyone can burn a CD-R off the computer and stick it in a floppy plastic sleeve with a pixelated, home-printed cover.
I don't understand this reasoning. Artwork can be very cool on a cd-r. It can be hand drawn, hand printed/silkscreen with limited edition art and hand typed/written notes. I have seen it down very, very well where the product feels special, handmade, limited and with much care and thought put into it. Bardo Pond’s self released cd-r “Volume” series were good examples of this.
It was to do with doing something a tiny bit more special, more to do with a release that was at least interesting to look at and play with in your hands, even if you didn't have a tape deck you still had something nice to hold and look through while you listened to the music.
But, if they don't have a tape deck how can they listen to it and why would they buy it? :?
we've had numerous interviewers speaking to us like retards for releasing a tape, like we released our music on a betamax or a floppy disk or something.


With all due respect, a cassette tape is like these other mediums.
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Re: anyone going to see White Hills in UK or Europe?

Post by spzretent »

MattBenn wrote:
I don't understand people that say tapes have just appeared again either. They never went away as far as I'm concerned, there were independent bands and tape labels releasing stuff all the way through the 90's and 00's. Just because Pitchfork or whoever only latched onto it again in the last few years, doesn't mean it has only just started up again. Sure it's more of a niche than it was in the 80's, but vinyl is more of a niche now than it was in the 60's. I grew up with tapes too, so I don't really get that point either, I'm certainly not trying to catch up with a format I missed out on first time round, because I was surrounded by tapes and had a walkman, and have had them passed down by my parents.
.
I do know about England because I have spent a lot of time there. Record shopping in particular. I never saw cassettes anywhere in any record shop for the past 10-15 years maybe more. I know I have a pretty good knowledge of UK record shops. Especially Nottingham, Leeds, Sheffield, Manchester, etc.
Cassettes first started reappearing over here, US, thru Not Not Fun et al. Its relatively recently. There is a definite hipster appeal for some reason.
The only places you can find cassettes and 8 tracks here are thrift shops. Thats it. Of course ebay is littered with them too. I sell a lot of high quality blank tapes and mostly who buys them are Estonians and Chinese. Not exactly trend setters(sorry Veiko).
8 tracks sell here to mainly people who have classic cars with in dash 8 track players. At least they are somewhat cool to look at. I have 10 above my desk that are cool. Goats Head Soup, Exile, Beggars, All Things Must Pass, Ooh La La, 1st and 2nd Band albums, Rock Of Ages.
I have been selling off my cassettes as I will never play them and I do have a cassette deck. They are a pointless medium. in my not so humble opinion of course.
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Re: anyone going to see White Hills in UK or Europe?

Post by redcloud »

spzretent wrote:There is a definite hipster appeal for some reason.
It's the retro appeal, which is popular with hipsters.

I know it costs more to produce vinyl but I am convinced the hipster "cool factor" market also has a lot to do with the high cost of new records.
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Re: anyone going to see White Hills in UK or Europe?

Post by runcible »

I rather agree with the 'retro' view here, but I don't think there is anything wrong with bands choosing a more unusual format for their music. When I heard Cameron Stallone had released some Magic Lantern stuff on cassette I thought 'that's cool' as I couldn't remember the last time someone had released a cassette.

I have an old Nakamichi cassette deck, but it doesn't work properly. I can't find anyone to fix it so I went and looked at new machines and, like Redcloud, I can't find a decent one. Richer Sounds sell a double cassette deck for dubbing but I don't like those. Of course the download coupon means you can have the music but that brings us back to the digital format. I have a vast amount of vinyl and a machine to play it on but I struggle with cassettes because the range of machines available is very limited. The big difference is you can get high quality record decks all over the place, and what's more there are plenty of people who will service your creaking old deck if it's any good. Cassette decks? Not the same.

Having said that I agree with Matt that a CD can be such an unsatisfying format. Just ask someone like The Great Pop Supplement's Dominic who sticks to vinyl all the time. Jewel cases are horrible and I love it when someone does something interesting with the CD format.The Geat Northwest packaged their album beautifully. The Heads go for retro LP sleeve style which look great. The afore-mentioned Bardo Pond series are really nicely done. The Hookworms Live cassette is a really cool bit of packaging but I can't play it til I find a Nakamichi engineer (tips welcome by the way!). I bought the cassette because I wanted to own the next Hookworms release, and I bought the first tape for the same reason. To be treated like 'retards' for releasing a cassette is bit odd - what's wrong with artistic licence? You are providing people with a nice looking thing and they can download the music anyway. But I'll admit I did think you'd chosen that format in order to do something a little different.

This has turned into a very interesting debate!
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Re: anyone going to see White Hills in UK or Europe?

Post by Laz69 »

If it ain't issued on a wax cylinder, i ain't interested! :wink: :lol:

Sory to nudge the thread back onto track, but did anyone grab a setlist for the Leeds show the other night? I have the setlist for the Glasgow show, but it seems to be slightly different sets on each date (Olan's set list from Liverpool is different to Glasgow show)
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Re: anyone going to see White Hills in UK or Europe?

Post by runcible »

One question which I'm curious about. How is the sound quality on tapes these days? It was always notoriously poor in the past. Dolby muffled everything yet the sound hissed without it.

I like the cassettes you've produced and the reasons for doing so are absolutely valid. I know how expensive vinyl and CDs are to make. People always grumble about The Heads doing such tiny editions of CDs but at that level they can handle it themsleves without involving a distributor and it's cost effective. I hate to think how pricey vinyl is to produce. My initial point is that CD-Rs are easy to make up and the band could customise each one individually if they are made for sale at a show. What's more people do buy them so your music would be heard by more people in my opinion.

The point about Betamax and floppies was, I believe, to illustrate the fact that these are formats, like cassette, which have lost favour massively over the years. I don't think it was meant to say music had been released on Beta/floppy. Give it time and cassettes will largely disappear I reckon. I have loads but can't play them properly!
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anyone going to see White Hills in UK or Europe?

Post by olan »

Off topic:
Really interesting discussion here about vinyl/tapes/CDs. I really despise CDs (despite owning several thousdand of them) particularly because I'm getting short-sighted(and grouchy) in my old age and can't read the titles on the spines any more, let alone the sleeve notes. When we moved from Oz to the UK I started to unpack the CDs and then decided to rip them all to a NAS drive. I sold my CD player and its power supply, bought a streamer and dumped all the CDs in the cellar in their boxes.

I also own thousands of cassettes, most of which contain the recordings either I or my mates did of the gigs we went to since the eearly 1980s, or stuff I traded for. I have a working tape deck and intend to digitize my collection. I started to do this years ago and used to upload them to Dimeadozen, but it is just too time consuming. To do a 90-minute tape takes at least 2.5 hours after ripping, track splitting etc. I couldn't see myself bothering with more tapes, and I can't be arsed with MP3s downloads. Unless the download is lossless (like the last Perplexa album) I usually don't bother with it.

Give me an LP every time....

On topic
Would be very interestsed in the setlists for other White Hills gigs from the tour. I may have just been unlucky with the other nights selection of songs.
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Re: anyone going to see White Hills in UK or Europe?

Post by runcible »

MattBenn wrote: I think there is a charm to them, but that probably makes me a retro-wannabe hipster.
:lol: I always thought that the 'retro-wannabe-hipster' scene was the market Hookworms had targeted!
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Re: anyone going to see White Hills in UK or Europe?

Post by redcloud »

olan wrote: Give me an LP every time....
Me too. Unfortunately, I am not rich either and NEW LP's seem to be priced between $25-40. Almost all the records I buy are older/used LP's and for the price of a brand new LP I can buy an armload of used LP's or a relatively difficult/hard to find album. This is how my mind works. So, newer albums do tend to be on cd simply because of the LP's price hike. But the bulk of my music spending money goes to thumbing around used record stores buying older music.
runcible wrote:
The point about Betamax and floppies was, I believe, to illustrate the fact that these are formats, like cassette, which have lost favour massively over the years. I don't think it was meant to say music had been released on Beta/floppy. Give it time and cassettes will largely disappear I reckon. I have loads but can't play them properly!
Correct.
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Re: anyone going to see White Hills in UK or Europe?

Post by runcible »

MattBenn wrote:I think the average age of guys that come up to the merch stand and buy our record is about 40, but that could be because we play with bands like Wooden Shjips, Bardo Pond and White Hills.

Someone came up to us after the White Hills show and told us that they thought we were going to be in our 40's after they'd heard the 12", oops.
Phew - so I fit into the fanbase just about! I think many people are impressed at how young Hookworms are as the music shows some genuine maturity. I have mates in bands that can't even dream of the imagination you guys have.

What was the opening track of your set the other night anyway?
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Re: anyone going to see White Hills in UK or Europe?

Post by TheWarmth »

I don't know if it could be easily done, but I think the tape conversation should be moved to a new thread.

I have a few more thoughts: I agree with Spzretent/Alan that cassettes have just recently come back into fashion. It has really only been within the last year that I started seeing them for sale online and at gigs again. I'm sure that they never went away completely, but it's undeniable that it has recently become fashionable to release music on cassettes.

Regarding cds, I don't like buying them, either, but I buy, for example, the White Hills limited CDRs because they aren't released in any other format. Also, I can play cds in my car. I don't have a jack for my iPod, so cds do come in handy for that purpose.

Back in 2009 or so, my band put out a 12" on white vinyl. The total cost was ridiculous. We pressed 300. Our cds sell at a MUCH brisker pace than the vinyl, and I'm sure this has a lot to do with the fact that vinyl is still a niche market AND that the cds are 1/3 of the price of the 12". We now use a cd duplication company based in Madison, Wisconsin called Sooper Dooper. The turnaround is extremely quick and the product is solid and looks great. We do not use jewel cases, opting instead for a four-panel artwork (usually with the inner panels blank, so you just get front and back artwork) housed within a clear plastic sleeve. Our recent run of 50 copies of our remix album cost us $88, including shipping.

While I am a huge vinyl nut, right now, pressing vinyl is absolutely not do-able for us. We tried doing fancy cd packages that cost a little more in the past, too, but our fans still opted more frequently for the cheaper version in the package I described in the paragraph above.
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Re: anyone going to see White Hills in UK or Europe?

Post by redcloud »

I agree with Paul...if there is any easy way to move some of the talk regarding cassettes into its own thread that would be good. Many of us in here buy music in its physical form. This is good debate and it would be nice to get others to chime in.

Vinyl is always going to be the preferred medium for many of us but we do not represent the majority. I am convinced that CD's will still sell better than tapes and they are cheap to produce. As cheap as tapes? I have no idea...but it seems like they should be. The profit margin certainly seems like it will be better.

I will also go back to the point that self released cd-r's can be unique and come with special art/liner notes etc. I have seen it countless times with bands at various gigs here in Portland. But, Bardo Pond are a good example too. When they first started doing the Volume series they would often be sent with some art by Clint and some cool stickers were often included in the envelope. I remember receiving those envelopes from Philadelphia and being really stoked when I opened them up.
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Re: Music formats - cassettes, vinyl and beyond

Post by runcible »

Sorry it's taken so long to split this topic. Man I am not terribly technical but I've kind of done it. Apologies if the White Hills thread is slightly bumpy now.

Anway, I remembered what must be the ultimate music format tale...

A guy I knew donkeys years ago lived in a flat in Brentford, west London. He was mates with Nurse With Wound dude Steven Stapleton and had an insane collection of United Dairies and industrial related stuff. The rare stuff is ridiculously valuable as you probably know. That flat was amazing - Steven had painted the hallway for him - and the whole place was over the top psychedelic but really skilfully done. Swirling colours all over the place from floor to ceiling and at one point very sexual with a giant penis squirting a stream of psychedelic sperm into an even more tripped out vagina (I kid you not!). It really was amazing. At one point Steven gave this guy a hand-made gift of such complexity and imagination it still freaks me out to even think of it. You know those old dolls with a string in their backs that you pull, and then the doll says things like 'I Love You Mummy'? Those are tiny record players with teeny discs inside so that when you pull the string it stretches a spring and when you let it go the disc spins and a needle plays the doll's message. Well Steven had got a miniscule set of Nurse With Wound 'doll discs' made and set them into one of these mini record players that he'd adapted from a doll and built into a customised box unit. So the only way you could play the music was by pulling the string which activated the string and a few seconds of Nurse With Wound would be played. That's easily the coolest collector's item and music format I have ever heard of, if just a little impractical!

I'll be honest and say I never actually saw this item as it was fiercely protected but the guy I set up Runcible with was one of the recipient's best mates and used to talk about it so I know it existed. I saw the amazing Nurse With Wound hallway lots of times as I went there a lot. I lost touch with this guy - a friendly sort but a bit of a nutter - a while back so I am sure he moved out of the flat and said lysergic artwork is probably painted over now. But I wonder what that doll record player would be worth to a United Dairies fan.
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Re: Music formats - cassettes, vinyl and beyond

Post by nickh »

I have just bought a turn-table and gone back to vinyl.

I had to punt quite a lot of my collection a few years ago just to be able to pay my fucking bills, most of it I managed to replace one way or another, usually CD but sometimes MP3.

I had been thinking over the last year or so that my record collection is just a mass of digital information stored in crates under my bed or files on a lap-top which seemed a little soulless. As mentioned above I also have some really great super-limited CDs that the seller has really put some thought into and I wouldn’t be without these but to paraphrase Jason and Brian Eno, I hate those cheap plastic boxes.

I don’t have a great deal of room so I really bit the bullet and had a cabinet made by some local carpenters so I can store the turntable and the records in.

I have recently become the proud owner of Autobahn and Radioactivity, Neu and Neu 75, and Tindersticks new record, The Something Rain. Will of course be ordering Sweet Heart, Sweet light on vinyl too.

I also like the download code, that seems a hell of a good deal to me.

I will definitely not be reverting back to cassettes though, what next? A return to VHS? :lol:
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Re: Music formats - cassettes, vinyl and beyond

Post by olan »

I have recently moved to Liverpool. Apart from the tropical weather we are enjoying at the moment, the quality of the second hand vinyl scene here was a huge surprise to me. The second hand shop on Bold Street used to have excellent 60's Garage and Psyche and Krautrock sections, but somebody thinned the stock out recently ( :D ). There is a huge Roy Castle charity shop not far from me which can be phenomenal for vinyl, and it is almost all 50p for a LP or 5 for £2. This beats HMV hands down as a shopping experience and supports a good cause. As for cassettes, they did have tons, but were having trouble shifting them, even at 10p each, so I suspect they all hit the skip....

I've bought tons of records in these charity shops since we got here (Jazz, Classsical, Blues, etc) that I would never have considered previously. I'm expanding my knowledge of music and as a bonus supporting a good cause (speaking here as a former resident of the oncology ward). Vinyl is a really good cheap way to expand your musical horizons. However,I can't see the point of getting back into cassettes, their only merit in their heyday was portability, cars and Walkmen (and mostly that was a blank cassette in the D6 as the band walked onstage). Digital recorders (DAT first) have removed this as an advantage. You don't have to flip a tape in the dark on a Microtrak or some such and the quality of the recording is better.

In short, I can see the point of keeping vinyl going as a format, but cassettes were/are a novelty and cheapness aside have little to recommend them. This is especially true of the shitty plastic boxes that cassettes came in, which break even more easily than CD covers and are equally as horrible in terms of artwork/ font size.

Give me an LP any day......
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Re: Music formats - cassettes, vinyl and beyond

Post by JakeCardigan »

I do like cassettes, but for me it's the physical over digital...whether that's a CD-R with photocopied cover, cassette, 7", 12" or a jewel-cased CD... I appreciate getting the package, and both Matt and Runcible have mentioned it can be the cost factor which determines what particular medium, and as listeners I think we have to except a little "dealer's choice" too!

Don't know if anyone has come across Winebox Press - http://thewholevoyald.blogspot.co.uk/ - cassette releases of predominantly experimental music. They have the most amazing packaging and attention to detail. Packages are made from discarded objects and the number of releases are determined by how many can be made from the object.
[url]http://adventuresinthesoundscape.com/[/url]
[url]http://www.mixcloud.com/adventuresinthesoundscape/[/url]
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Re: Music formats - cassettes, vinyl and beyond

Post by Hofstadter »

I personally have no problem with any of the formats. I love buying new LPs on vinyl, I love looking through record shops and finding old gems on vinyl. The packaging and the physicality of the music is what makes it so appealing. I think most people on here seem to agree on why they like vinyl/why it has come back, etc.

When it comes to cassettes, I also love 'em, but usually when its buying very limited releases - and usually it's also the type of band/music that gets put out on cassette -- very diy, analog sounds, etc. It's just sort of fun and cheap, and of course something a little cool, at least for me, somebody who really has grown up after the age of cassettes. I remember getting a few mixtapes from a family friend for my birthdays when I was very young, but for the most part people my age (i.e. 17) don't really have any exposure to cassettes. Sadly, I think it has made the meaning of a mixtape decline a lot. It is so easy to throw a thousand songs on a flash drive, or burn a cd -- I sometimes make a few special friends actual mixtapes (of course I have to burn a cd first and put it in an old cd player i have that can record a tape from the cd in it -- but shh don't tell them this is how I do it) just because it somehow seems more meaningful, presents even a little bit of a challenge and a sense of wonder when they actually get to play it. It just feels more real I think, like there is more meaning behind it, more feeling, more effort (even if I had to go through the digital meaning first). It's sort of the same thing as when I send a friend of mine who is spending the school year in Spain a post card instead of an email (which would be much easier/cheaper) -- I don't really know why we do it, but we just do.

As for CDs, if I have a choice between a pressed CD and vinyl, I'll always choose vinyl -- I don't mind buying CDs when they are in the sort of nice mini gatefold packaging -- I usually only buy CDs though when they are CDRs, i.e. the band doesn't have the money or a deal or w/e to put stuff out on vinyl, and it is just sort of cheaper and easier sometimes to go the CD R route than to go the cassette route, or maybe for a bands sound cassette just isn't right. Then I love buying those sorts of CD Rs.

I think JakeCardigan really hit the nail on the head
JakeCardigan wrote:whether that's a CD-R with photocopied cover, cassette, 7", 12" or a jewel-cased CD... I appreciate getting the package

As for you mr. MattBenn -- I'm just listening to Hookworms (which I believe is your band!!) and totally digging it! I am about to order the LP.
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Re: Music formats - cassettes, vinyl and beyond

Post by Hofstadter »

Well first I need to get a little bit of cash together to pay the padres since it'd be on their card, so I should rephrase and say I will be ordering soon. Hopefully you don't run out in the next day or two.
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Re: Music formats - cassettes, vinyl and beyond

Post by redcloud »

MattBenn wrote: What do people think about flexi discs?
I have an old Flaming Lips flexi, which came free in BOB magazine. I think that is also the point...flexi's were gimmicky freebies that came in magazines and even on the back/inside of cereal boxes etc.
MattBenn wrote: Are they the new "cool" format? Maybe what I said earlier might come true re: betamax and floppy disks...
Betamax might...wasn't it actually a superior format to VHS?
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Re: Music formats - cassettes, vinyl and beyond

Post by Laz69 »

New Telescopes single is coming out as a postcard flexi, from what i can read, comes from some place in Europe (Poland, Czech Republic, or somewhere) which released loads of Frank Zappa postcard flexies many years... i suppose its whether they are up for playing or just a physical nice to have.
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Re: Music formats - cassettes, vinyl and beyond

Post by runcible »

There was a Velvet Underground thing pressed on cardboad vinyl wasn't there? I think Dom Earworm has one.
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Re: Music formats - cassettes, vinyl and beyond

Post by olan »

redcloud wrote:
MattBenn wrote: What do people think about flexi discs?
I have an old Flaming Lips flexi, which came free in BOB magazine. I think that is also the point...flexi's were gimmicky freebies that came in magazines and even on the back/inside of cereal boxes etc.
MattBenn wrote: Are they the new "cool" format? Maybe what I said earlier might come true re: betamax and floppy disks...
Betamax might...wasn't it actually a superior format to VHS?
I don't mind flexi discs. I have a cuple of copies of the Joy Division flexi amongst others. They never sound great, but as they are typically promotional devices they usually contain very interesting music.
BzaInSpace
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Re: Music formats - cassettes, vinyl and beyond

Post by BzaInSpace »

I dunno guys. Tapes are fucking awful. This is from somebody who grew up with the damn things... I shudder at the hours of my life I lost trying to repair them when they got snagged inside one of my tape decks, or 'personal stereo', which was pretty frequently due to how often I was playing music.

Despite keeping the inner workings of tape machines clean as a whistle and always spooling through the tape before playing inevitably my most prized music would get totally mashed sooner or later. I lost count of how many early 4-track recordings were lost due to the dreaded tape as storage device... I used to notice certain record companies cassettes were definitely using cheaper stock. These would snap and they wouldn't even have cassette cases that would screw together, just bound by glue and trying to fix them was murder.

I don't get this argument about CDs and jewel cases having crap artwork and stuff when you're comparing it to the cassette! The worst artwork and inlay cards ever! The argument about creating your own sleeves with pullouts and stuff can easily be applied to CDs as well.

Something which hasn't been touched on yet is the inherent analogue nature of cassettes which could be the format's sole advantage - music being recorded onto tape never suffered digital distortion or clipping and in fact being recorded at or over 'peak' input suffuses the recording with a fantastic warm glow, have a listen to some of the old Lone Pigeon stuff for example. Despite this I can play 20+ years old CDs (or indeed vinyls) and enjoy pristine sound. On the other hand a cassette from that era will inevitably sound shit: hissy, loss of dynamics etc due to the magnetic tape itself degrading. It can have interesting consequences of course, my cassette of Ladies and Gentlemen We Are Floating In Space now sounds like a dub version of said album.

This whole 'mixtape' thing is founded on nostalgia or false nostalgia - who would want to sit for hours carefully compiling and editing a tape of songs when you can burn a CD off in minutes? I was blown away the first time I realized the implications of having a CD burner. And all that fast-forwarding or rewinding to get to a particular song... fuck that!

Personally I couldn't wait to stop having to mess around with them. Anybody who has merely dabbled in the murky world of tapes may think otherwise though...
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sunray
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Re: Music formats - cassettes, vinyl and beyond

Post by sunray »

Not often i find myself in agreement with BZA but that post sums up my feelings towards tapes perfectly.
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niamhm
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Re: Music formats - cassettes, vinyl and beyond

Post by niamhm »

just bought my first vinyl in 20 yrs.-ordered the new album- coz it sounds a real cool item and it comes with the download coupon and thats the thing for me ,as that seems to be how I listen to music now ,in digital format mostly,I buy a cd ,stick it on the pc & into my ipod then burn a disc as I don`t want to take the cd into the works van,where I do the other half of my music listening these days ,as some one said earlier ,the majority of my music listening doesn`t go down to well in the family setting ,weirdly :?

don`t really have a problem with cassettes per se,If a band of the stature of Hookworms say, want to do something on cassette thats fine ,but cassettes I wouldn`t buy myself,agree with BZA`s view on cassettes and nostalgia ,and agree their seems to be a cool ,underground label ,hipster thing going on recently,may be wrong ,but thats how it seems to me,

last week I bought Hey Jane on mp3 and the new Burial, Kindred ep ,which at this point in time is digital only ,though it may come out later on 12" ,and thats something I always thought I would have a problem with ,buying music I don`t physically own, but guess what? the music is astonishing!! 3 trax , just over 1/2 an hour for £2.50,and I don`t feel cheated,I feel like mentally I`ve just broke through some kinda barrier or something as I`ve been listening to it non stop,just made me think abit about how I consume music in contemporary times ,which is weird as I just bought some vinyl and I don`t have a turntable at this point in time,so I will listen to my mp3 & look at my fantastic double album :?
Hofstadter
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Re: Music formats - cassettes, vinyl and beyond

Post by Hofstadter »

BzaInSpace wrote:
This whole 'mixtape' thing is founded on nostalgia or false nostalgia - who would want to sit for hours carefully compiling and editing a tape of songs when you can burn a CD off in minutes? I was blown away the first time I realized the implications of having a CD burner. And all that fast-forwarding or rewinding to get to a particular song... fuck that!
Hmm I'm not sure I agree that it is nostalgia, but even if it is: what would make it false? Just a little confused about that.

Anyways though, I think part of the whole appeal of the mixtape is the very fact that you do have to "sit for hours carefully compiling and editing a tape of songs" -- it's a way to put effort and meaning behind an object! It's a way to show that you care. The fact that it's not easy is what makes mixtapes valuable to me. The fact that you can burn a CD in minutes is what makes it less meaningful, is what sort of makes it worthless. I'm not talking about sharing new music or whatever, because then yes, of course a CD is far superior to a tape -- for that matter a CD is obsolete, you could just throw thousands of songs on a flash drive, or in a dropbox, or a hundred other ways. I think what makes the tape special is the very fact that it is clumsy, inefficient, whatever (just like we are with our words/relationships). I would never be like hey man, check this band out they are great! and then go make a tape of the album I am talking about. It's the type of thing where I want to give somebody a meaningful gift, something that is one of kind, that they will always have forever. Sort of an Emersonian gift or whatever in some sense. And on the receiving end, I think the very fact that fast forwarding is such a pain is another thing that makes the act of getting a mixtape more meaningful. You sit down and listen to the tape from start to finish, you think about how all the songs fit together, why whoever gave it to you put them there, etc. The tape is sort of (for me at least) a holistic thing that captures something more than just hey these songs are good you will like them -- it's about conveying a feeling, an emotion, something you want to say, or whatever when maybe your words aren't as good at at doing that.

Also, most of my friends and I have older cars that just have tape decks, so that's another reason to do it. Although there's also those little tape adapters/fm adapters to make up for that, but still. I think there's something about listening to music in the car/on long road trips that is very powerful/meaningful to me for some reason, and I sort of like tapes for that reason to.

This doesn't really address releasing albums and stuff on tape though, although I do think in my last post I mentioned sort of the analog nature and the sounds of the actual bands that you are listening to on tape as being relevant. I think though it really comes down to the feeling of buying something unique and real, sort of like a poor man's vinyl. Also, growing up and not having all the frustrations of tape certainly influences me. I guess when an artist records something on tape and then exclusively releases it on tape it just feels like you are getting something really special and unique and limited. Maybe that sense is false, but it's still there.

Sorry if this is really disjointed I'm really tired long week.
jadams501
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Re: Music formats - cassettes, vinyl and beyond

Post by jadams501 »

I listen to so many different genres that it can be hard to keep track of everything, so I tend to organize things in playlists. I'm always inclined to throw in the b-sides and multiple live takes so I don't necessarily hear the "definitive" recording a lot of the time. Boiling things down to the 80 minutes of a CD imposes strict discipline and forces me to choose the choicest cuts. I like CDs for the car and the inherent challenge of compiling the very best songs.

I came along towards the end of the cassette era, so I don't have much nostalgia for it. I understand why it might hold a strong nostalgic appeal to music buffs of a certain age, but I prefer the straight 80 minutes of a CD that I can keep in the car and conveniently reburn any time it starts skipping to the inconvenient time-consumingness of constantly degrading cassettes. Plus, cassettes were so small that they didn't accommodate any decently-sized artwork, which for me is the main appeal of vinyl anyway.
davedecay
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Re: Music formats - cassettes, vinyl and beyond

Post by davedecay »

yeah, what's the value of a painting that took 30 hours to paint when you can just compose your image in Photoshop and send it off to the laser printer?
Hofstadter
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Re: Music formats - cassettes, vinyl and beyond

Post by Hofstadter »

davedecay wrote:yeah, what's the value of a painting that took 30 hours to paint when you can just compose your image in Photoshop and send it off to the laser printer?
Oh no.... now we are going to get into a whole aesthetics debate... we could talk endlessly about what is the point of actually painting something when there is say photography now, or writing a book when there is film as a medium, but I think that would be getting away from the point of this thread.

As for the thing that is directly pointed out in that comment... to me it just seems so obvious that there would for instance be value in a painting that somebody took 30 hours to make versus a digital print -- maybe that is irrational and stupid, but I feel like that labor has to have some intrinsic value!. It's not always about efficiency. It's sort of like the argument between something being an art versus being a craft.

I feel like I am the only person here with this viewpoint though, so maybe I should just shut up!!
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