Oh Lance...

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Hofstadter
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Oh Lance...

Post by Hofstadter »

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/11/sport ... trong.html

Too crazy... it's only a matter of time before Livestrong bracelets make an 'ironic' come back... might even have to start wearing one. It's just too funny. That article is just so mind-blowing in how it makes the inversion of Lance Armstrong's character so complete...
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Re: Oh Lance...

Post by solarflarez »

Ever get the feeling you've been cheated? .................... end quote ..............
spacemanrich
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Re: Oh Lance...

Post by spacemanrich »

Kinda knew that he took hgh's, he just acted so arrogant and cocky. He has NO BALLS !!! ( no pun intended )

Just take back those (7) Tour de France victories :lol:

You kinda knew what kind of person he was diagnosed w/ cancer and married his nurse and had several kids, but once he was cured he dumped his family for Sheryl Crow.
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Re: Oh Lance...

Post by Laz69 »

jack white
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Re: Oh Lance...

Post by jack white »

today is a good day.
gonna burn brightly
for a while
spacemanrich
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Re: Oh Lance...

Post by spacemanrich »

Hopefully, he'll find a hole to crawl into ...... maybe HELL ! :evil:
natty
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Re: Oh Lance...

Post by natty »

They were all dirty, Lance was just the best at it.

He's a ballbag.
BVCP206
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Re: Oh Lance...

Post by BVCP206 »

Very sad, he pulled the wool over everbodys eyes :roll:
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TheWarmth
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Re: Oh Lance...

Post by TheWarmth »

I'm excited for the "Live Strong" bracelets to become an ironic fashion accessory. D.A.R.E. t-shirt + Live Strong bracelet = coolest middle school stoner on the block.
semisynthetic
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Re: Oh Lance...What have you been pedaling?

Post by semisynthetic »

I have been in and out of various Research Laboratories and so on for 30+ years; so for YEARS I've been asked by all manner of athlete "how do I beat the test". I reply, "don't take that poison, it is not worth the unwanted and dangerous side effects, and you will eventually be caught; so what would you have won?"
But, the desire, no, the Absolute NECESSITY of "Winning" is so overwhelming that the need to take performance enhancing drugs is/was not only condoned, but encouraged at EVERY LEVEL OF SPORT; from Junior High ON. I have seen bottles of 100 tablets of (now banned) substances given out to athletes at colleges like candy. Wrestlers would come to my office with all kinds of questions and concerns; as would Football Players and the rest; most of this was some time ago, but I know it continues on. The Olympics has become a battle of the Silent Laboratories; very sad, and very dangerous to the youngsters of (mostly) Totalitarian Regimes.

Having not yet seen the details of the report, but only the teasers on the news which keep pointing at an "Advanced and Coordinated Methodology" by the Armstrong Team makes sense to me.
It is very, very difficult to beat a FAB (Fast Atom Bombardment) Mass Spectrometer and a competent technician.
That would be "step one" testing. Just the beginning. Then the REAL tests could begin.

When designing and synthesizing new Medicinal Compounds, oftentimes the quantities are very minute. TINY. Imagine tracking and observing the changes of a dose of a new compound one-tenth the mass of a single grain of salt. The metabolites formed as the drug is broken down, or in some cases, converted into the active form, is a necessary, but sometimes troublesome bit of work to thoroughly elucidate, and by working "backwards", understand what is happening in vivo. Nevertheless, even with only a University Research Laboratory, it is relatively easy to follow the initial pro-drug, the active drug, various metabolites and post-metabolic remnants of even a very small amount of ALMOST any drug. The half-life, time since ingestion, and unique chemistry of a particular drug may change the methodology of analysis, but it would not be easy to beat the system. Eventually, a test, a tissue, something will go wrong for the athlete using these compounds, and their activities discovered. It is almost inevitable.

Still, the desire to "win", even by illegitimate means, even if disgrace and eventual "loss" of it all occurs, I cannot quite understand that strange drive to succeed at some "sport"; ergo, it is obviously NOT the sport that is being "won", that seems quite clear, and even simplistic; Obvious. Still interesting however; the human mind with all its machinations always is. Rationalization is that irrational approach to first fooling yourself, then others, as deemed necessary. Somehow the "fooling others", in this case, a wide cross-section of fans, kids, et cetera, is far worse than simply being obfuscative and dishonest to a degree such as we observe here.

I am still curious just how the evasion was carried out for so long; and also interested in the psychology of the mind that pursued what must have been a bold, brazen, cold and calculated, complex method of trickery by Mr. Armstrong. And what
did he REALLY EVER WIN? Not much; his livelihood gone, his medals stripped; the "Sport" that once embraced him as a
role model and hero, now treats him as a pariah. I have heard about "blood transfusions". Not terribly advanced.
(Really, blood transfusions are just old hat; just ask Certain Stones et al. But, THAT, well; is a very DIFFERENT sport. :D A Private Game.)
"Everything is a Poison; it is the amount or degree that separates one Poison from another"
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spzretent
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Re: Oh Lance...

Post by spzretent »

I understand all the money he has raised for cancer research but what a fucking asshole!
Ruining the little people along the way when in the end they were all right.
The line for lawsuits is gonna be a long one.
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runcible
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Re: Oh Lance...

Post by runcible »

The Oprah interview hasn't been shown yet has it? I wonder if he actually tells what really happened. Probably not.
Hofstadter
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Re: Oh Lance...

Post by Hofstadter »

I would say something like "the balls on that guy to do what he did" but....

If he was a man, he would come out and cop to it, but I guess he's only half a man...

Alright those were horribly mean and making fun of a cancer survivor is never in good taste, but he just seems like such an asshole.
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Re: Oh Lance...

Post by spzretent »

No one can figure out why he is doing this. Most cynics believe he will announce plans for a tell all book.
I certainly have more respect for Sheryl Crow now too. Kind of always had a soft spot for here once I heard her drone tune.
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semisynthetic
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Re: Oh Lance...

Post by semisynthetic »

It was easy to look at a guy who had overcome a terrible life experience and seemingly moved on with great dedication and work to achieve the remarkable. Not so, and it is a terrible thing to have no honor, to have every word you say now suspect because you have made a lucrative career out of lies and deception.

He may write that book, and he better hope a great many people are fascinated, because the Lawsuits are on their way, and a legion of lawyers wanting what is left of him is an expensive proposition to contend with.
"Everything is a Poison; it is the amount or degree that separates one Poison from another"
Paracelsus
runcible
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Re: Oh Lance...

Post by runcible »

It just gets worse and worse for this guy...
Ian
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Re: Oh Lance...

Post by Ian »

Armstrong obviously deserves contempt, but it amuses me that we are discussing this on this forum.

"Jason Pierece said today that he 'only wanted a level playing field',,,".
I have a passion sweet Lord...
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Laz69
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Re: Oh Lance...

Post by Laz69 »

Hofstadter wrote:but I guess he's only half a man...
Hey man, i'm not hugely offended normally, and you accept that those statements were in bad taste, but i do think taking the piss out of someone who has been through testicular cancer is a little off, regardless of who they are.

I suffered the same condition when i was 17 years old and i too had to go through surgery, years of treatment and constant worry before getting the all clear. I watched my parent's world fall apart when i went home to tell them the news. I've sat in cancer treatment and waiting rooms with kids with half their skulls missing and others with no hair when they're less than 10 years old. Cancer is not a subject that can be used for flippant statements like that.

As for the "half a man", that shows a misunderstanding of the condition too. It makes very little difference to all the things that make me male or to my ability to produce some beautiful offspring, of which i have three. Suggesting his condition makes him less of a man is pretty silly.

Clearly Lance is a cheat, liar and many other things but a cheap shot at him via his Cancer is not necessary.
Hofstadter
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Re: Oh Lance...

Post by Hofstadter »

Yeah I'm very sorry (not that that means much , but I'll say if it is worth anything). I shouldn't have posted that. What's bad I guess is that I knew it was mean and I still posted it... But yeah I have had (several) family members die from various forms of cancer (and one or two survive).. Maybe making fun is a little bit of a self defense mechanism? Just being scared ya know? The man comment was again supposed to be a stupid joke, not reflect my understanding, but that by absolutely no means makes it excusable. Having also been with people who have gone through this stuff, I still can't really imagine what it was actually like going through it all for you, and so yeah I guess I just would say that you must be a very strong person (both before and even more so after).

Continuing the topic: what do people think about his actions with regards to livestrong? I think this story would be so much more interesting if he had only started cheating once he got cancer to raise awareness, but he was cheating long before. Anyways, as somebody who has had family directly benefit from livestrong (particularly one aunt who sorta turned her life around because of one of there just general health programs for survivors), should I be happy that he cheated? Was his cheating, if viewed from the "raising money for livestrong" perspective, morally justifiable? Interesting question. Thoughts?
Hofstadter
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Re: Oh Lance...

Post by Hofstadter »

Also, I guess thanks for sharing that very personal experience, I'm sure that is not an easy/desirable thing to do with random people on the internet, especially to illustrate to a dopey teenager why a comment was over the line. So yeah,just thanks for doing that I guess?
Laz69
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Re: Oh Lance...

Post by Laz69 »

I understand exactly what you mean about using humour as a defense mechanism and i'm by no means speaking down at you in some sort of judgemental fashion... i just, personally, know what its like to be on the receiving end of such jokes and, even after putting on a brave face, it still kinda hurts a little.

Anyway, with regards your comments on his raising awareness, and whether it kinda balances everything out, i'm pretty sure that a certain infamous UK tv presenter who has been unveiled as a prolific sexual predator over a period of 60 years, who took advantages of hundreds of young, sick and even dying kids thought the same when he was raising MILLIONS for good charities and hospitals. I know my example is kinda extreme, and completely unjustifiable in any shape or form, but the thought process behind it might fundamentally be the same... i.e. make themselves feel better about the bad things they are doing?

Or did he see it as the perfect alibi? Would anyone ever suspect someone who'se raising the profile of such an organisation.
redcloud
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Re: Oh Lance...

Post by redcloud »

With regards to Jimmy Savile...I think his charity work was his way of getting close to his victims and has nothing to do with trying to create "good karma" for his evil acts. Same thing here with the Penn State Univ. scandal. Jerry Sandusky used his charities to get access to the kids he preyed on. Nothing more and nothing less. Absolutely disgusting.

Back to Lance...what makes it all the more worse is how much he bullied people over the years and how he sued and sued and sued knowing he was taking money from people who were telling the truth about his lies. He ruined many people's lives while he was living his life of lies. That is so horrible and deceitful. In fact, to me it seems completely criminal and I now suspect he will be hit by many lawsuits by people who want their $ back as well as damages.
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Re: Oh Lance...

Post by jack white »

redcloud wrote:what makes it all the more worse is how much he bullied people over the years and how he sued and sued and sued knowing he was taking money from people who were telling the truth about his lies. He ruined many people's lives while he was living his life of lies. That is so horrible and deceitful. In fact, to me it seems completely criminal .
spzretent wrote: what a fucking asshole!
Ruining the little people along the way when in the end they were all right..

this.

but if i might interject the idea that the media, his fans & the public at large were culpable in this sorry story too.
there were people who spoke out, who believed in his guilt for a long time. & these people weren't listened to, they were ignored & insulted, not just from lance but from the public & media.
what i find egregious is a lot of these people are only now accepting the truth & are only now proclaiming lance a bully, a fraud & a liar.

one of my closest friends was a big believer in lance armstrong. i'd argued w/him over it once or twice but learned there was no point. people choose to believe in him despite evidence to the contrary, evidence & testimony. (what i mean by evidence isn't the testing, but his performances & behaviour.)
even after the doping case broke last yr my friend, & many others i saw online, were still willing to give armstrong the benefit of the doubt. i suppose that is a testimony to the power to the brand, but it's also a testimony to the de-humanising force that goes w/it. none of his supporters or even the media were willing to support the dissenters but now things have irrecoverably shifted so to have attitudes.
maybe it's a case of better late than never.
but speaking as someone who has never bought into the lance myth, i find it unsettling how these ruined lives were somehow once acceptable to lance's followers & the public but now they're recognised as the shameful casualties of a criminal.
(i confess, i only have a passing interest in the sport, but always kept abreast of david walshs writings & believed the old adage 'if a cyclist looks too good to be true he probably is'). it's like, what were people waiting on all these yrs? i still can't wrap my head around the full scale of compliance people had w/such an ugly creature.


as for his oprah interview. well, he wasn't exactly contrite was he? still bullish & full of deception, equivocations & denials.
he only admitted doping because he had to. not out of guilt or honesty, but out of desperation to salvage something.
i can't really blame him. it's human nature in a sense. he's just a fucking asshole is all.
gonna burn brightly
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spacemanrich
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Re: Oh Lance...

Post by spacemanrich »

I don't know if it was this thread or not, but I KNEW that Lance was doping. He just acted arrogant, that alone don't make you a guilty. However, it was all gut feeling/instincts that told me this. It's not like he won the 1st TourdeFrance on a clean sheet, ALL of the jerseys were won on doping. Yes, like someone mentiioned, just denials, lies and bullying other teammates to go along with the 'program'. He has everything coming to him and he can rot in hell for all I care ! :oops:
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Re: Oh Lance...

Post by simonkeeping »

jack white wrote:[as for his oprah interview. well, he wasn't exactly contrite was he? still bullish & full of deception, equivocations & denials.he only admitted doping because he had to. not out of guilt or honesty, but out of desperation to salvage something. i can't really blame him. it's human nature in a sense. he's just a fucking asshole is all.
Amen. Rather than redeem himself he's dug a bigger hole. And after reading the Usada report I have no sympathy for him. Manipulative, calculating and full of swaggering bravado. He made himself untouchable, literally destroying anything in his path to glory. The sickest thing he's done is to use cancer as a weapon in his defence. I like many probably people on this board have lost friends and loved ones to this illness and I find that repulsive. That more than anything really shows the mentality of guy. No remorse whatsoever. As Jack White said, he's confessed because he has no other option. The guy is scum.
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