Ferguson, Missouri

[Dreamweapon]

Anyone on the board live in or near this area in the States and can give some info or perspective? We are having quite detailed coverage on BBC News over here. Brings back memories of what happened following the Mark Duggen shooting in London.

[spzretent]

I watched a lot of the coverage last night and this morning.
This sets race relations back 50 years here.
However, what I saw last night night seemed to be organized groups looking to loot and just fuck shit up in general. Break windows, burn things. It seemed so stupid and senseless. What is this going to accomplish? It really gives those who already racist a reason to say Look here. This is what happens.
Much of this country felt like it was struck with a tremendous punch in the gut(or should have). At least free thinking people anyway. The way this idiot prosecuter handled things inflamed what was already a bad situation. Giving the info at night. What did they think was going to happen?
It is very depressing.

[TheWarmth]

This is an interesting article:

http://www.vox.com/2014/11/25/7281165/d ... story-side

I don't agree entirely with the writer here, but you can draw your own conclusions based on Wilson's accounts, some of which are included verbatim in the article.

[spacemanrich]

I was wondering if anyone would touch this issue, since it's kinda explosive (no pun intended) at the moment.

I live in Oakland, CA, black population hovering around 50%+. I thought I was in Sarajevo. Police sirens and helicopters dotted the night. Protests down one of the major boulevards and on the freeway (motorway) blocking traffic not to mention looting of stores and various fires throughout the night.

The victim was a no gooder. An 18 year old who had pushed/shoved an immigrant convenience store clerk to steal a pack of cigars. The policeman accosted him and that is where it gets murky in the details.

I knew that a not guilty verdict for the copper would be disastrous and I was correct. In my opinion justice was served either you liked the decision or not.

[TheWarmth]

The victim was a no gooder. An 18 year old who had pushed/shoved an immigrant convenience store clerk to steal a pack of cigars.

Edited: Maybe, maybe not. I've read a lot of comments where people have referred to Brown as a "thug", but there doesn't seem to be much evidence to support that, aside from the fact that he stole cigarillos from a convenience store just before the incident with Wilson occurred.

[spacemanrich]

Just read that Michael Brown's stepfather said this to incite the crowd after the verdict was announced, " let's burn this bitch down". The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. This could have been the catalyst in initiating the riots last night ?

Someone stated this last night regarding the thugs that were roaming the streets. ". You have time to protest, but you don't have time to go to school or work ? That sums it up.

[TheWarmth]

I understand why people are upset, especially with the Trayvon Martin case still looming large. There is rampant racism in our country. It's a problem. Whether or not this particular incident was race-related is questionable, but it has sparked a lot of anger in a large portion of the American public nonetheless.

[spzretent]

I was wondering if anyone would touch this issue, since it's kinda explosive (no pun intended) at the moment.
.

Touch it? You just poured gasoline on it.

[spzretent]

This is an interesting article:

I read it. I flat out do not belive the cop. Period. His version is ludicrous. Michael Brown was with someone. What is his version?

[plastic37]

The victim was a no gooder.

Superb sentence.

[TheWarmth]

Here's something I just read:

Brown had no known criminal record at the time of his death. His full juvenile record has not been made public, but a public records request by the St. Louis Post-Dispatch found he committed no serious felonies as a minor.

Also, we should be able to have a civilized conversation about this. I hope it doesn't go south. I have a lot of conflicting feels on the subject and this, as weird as it may seem, is probably the only place I feel comfortable discussing it.

[TheWarmth]

Michael Brown was with someone. What is his version?

Here you go:

http://www.vox.com/2014/11/25/7287443/d ... nson-story

[spzretent]

The more I am hearing the more I think the deck was totally stacked in favor of the cop. His story seems untrue to put it mildly. It was a grand jury. There was no cross examination. He was able go in and say whatever he wanted and leave. Furthermore a prosecutor's job is to get charges filed so this could go to a trial. 162,000 grand juries in 2013 and 11 came back with no trial. This guy not only went out of his way to not get a trial but he pretty much ruined the possibilty of any further civil trials by discrediting the witnesses who did come forward with specific information.
Oh yeah, the physics of what the cop said dont add up either. "He punched me with his right hand thru my open window". Then why was the bruise he posed for on the opposite cheek?
If I were a black person in the country I would be pissed off too. Not to the point of burning, looting and destroying things but I would be mad as hell.
Why do you believe the cop? Especially from the article in the link you posted. Not picking a fight just curious.

[TheWarmth]

I'm absolutely not saying that I believe the cop. My guess is that the truth lies somewhere between Wilson's and Johnson's descriptions of the events.

Also, yeah, the deck was totally stacked in the favor of Wilson. I certainly wouldn't argue with you on that point.

[spzretent]

The truth does lie somewhere between but I just dont believe this cop.
"Hey guys why not use the sidewalk?". Right.

[TheWarmth]

Do you think that Wilson feared for his life? Maybe he felt himself losing control of the situation and the fear of Brown barreling down at him and beating the shit out of him drove him to shoot. I don't know. It's difficult for me to believe that he simply shot the kid while his hands were up, but maybe that is what happened. Unfortunately, we'll never know.

Here are two more paragraphs from another Vox article that I think summarize the situation pretty well:

All this happened in less than two minutes. The fight happened in even less than that. And so there's also room for both accounts to be subjectively right. With the adrenaline pumping Wilson might really have grabbed Brown first, but then thought Brown was trying to grab his gun, or beat him to a pulp, even as he was really trying to get away. Brown might have sworn at the cop who almost clipped him with a truck, but after that, he might have really been trying to simply survive the altercation.

Indeed, we might never get to the truth of what happened in those two minutes on August. But the point of a trial would have been to get us closer. We would have found out if everything we thought we knew about Brown was wrong, or if Wilson's story was flawed in important ways, or if key witnesses completely broke under pressure. We would have heard real cross-examination. We would have seen the strongest case that could be mounted by both the prosecution and the defense. But now we're not going to get that chance. We're just left with these Rashomon-like testimonies, a dead 18-year-old, and a shattered family.

[spzretent]

I think the cop inflamed the situation. I dont believe he was as polite as he says he was.
I find it bordering on ridiculous that an 18 year old black kid who just ripped off a store would go looking for more trouble from a white cop. Especially to the extent the cop says he did.
In the end the cop got more than he bargained for with a huge 300 pound kid and all he had left was his gun.
This is just me connecting dots in my own head obviously.

[plastic37]

Indeed, we might never get to the truth of what happened in those two minutes on August. But the point of a trial would have been to get us closer. We would have found out if everything we thought we knew about Brown was wrong, or if Wilson's story was flawed in important ways, or if key witnesses completely broke under pressure. We would have heard real cross-examination. We would have seen the strongest case that could be mounted by both the prosecution and the defense. But now we're not going to get that chance. We're just left with these Rashomon-like testimonies, a dead 18-year-old, and a shattered family.

Superb paragraph.

[spzretent]

Indeed, we might never get to the truth of what happened in those two minutes on August. But the point of a trial would have been to get us closer. We would have found out if everything we thought we knew about Brown was wrong, or if Wilson's story was flawed in important ways, or if key witnesses completely broke under pressure. We would have heard real cross-examination. We would have seen the strongest case that could be mounted by both the prosecution and the defense. But now we're not going to get that chance. We're just left with these Rashomon-like testimonies, a dead 18-year-old, and a shattered family.[/i]

The prosecutor made sure that wasn't going to happen. That is the entire issue.

[plastic37]

The prosecutor made sure that wasn't going to happen. That is the entire issue.

Yup.

...and that this kind of thing has happened before. And that this kind of thing is highly likely to happen again. The response is a result of numerous similar incidents and the inevitability of recurrences of the sorry narrative. There was space for a couple of words like 'perceived' in what i just wrote but i couldn't be arsed to temper those assertions.

[semisynthetic]

[quote="TheWarmth"][quote="spzretent"]Michael Brown was with someone. What is his version?[/quote]

Here you go:

http://www.vox.com/2014/11/25/7287443/d ... nson-story[/quote]

This companion, who gave a number of increasingly gruesome accounts, when sworn in, disavowed them all; like many of the "hands up" accounts and other narratives that fit the slogan "hands up don't shoot", he revised his testimony and gave a VERY different account in front of the Grand Jury.

I would suggest reading the Official Report and the Autopsy; your questions will be likely answered by people who were there, Sworn in, and less prone to creative testimony, and gave something closer to the truth.