People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

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semisynthetic
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People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by semisynthetic » Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:32 am

I was very interested in this vote, and believed there were a sufficient number of people to say "No to More" rising Globalism, but I stayed out of any discussion of this until the vote was finished.

I am interested in your opinions, and, if you wish to share, how and why you voted - however you voted, or why you did not, please do. It is an interesting topic and Time.
"Everything is a Poison; it is the amount or degree that separates one Poison from another"
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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by Stuart X.Hunter » Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:44 am

I'm Scottish.

I'm devastated.

I appoint politicians to manage our position and not hand a poisoned chalice back to us when they're unable to administer our interests.

Regardless of what the outcome was it was always going to be a lose/lose result.

The whole lot of it needs burned down
Aim to do at least two positive things each day

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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by spunder » Fri Jun 24, 2016 8:49 am

I voted to remain.

I was not presented with any arguments other than rhetoric as to how my family's or my friends lives would be improved by leaving, and I do not believe any good has come from Nationalism.

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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by runcible » Fri Jun 24, 2016 8:52 am

Now that Cameron - inevitably - has announced he is to step down we actually face the possibility of that oaf Boris Johnson or that wanker Michael Gove as Prime Minster.

That is one very worrying thought and makes me think that Trump is a real possibility as President.

Anyone scared yet?

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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by jack white » Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:07 am

Under other circumstances I could see valid reasons for leaving the EU. Even tho I am pro-eu I do think it's a flawed institution & there are possible benefits to be reaped from working outside its confines.
But this? This isn't a good idea. The whole thing has been a disaster from the get go. The EU has been blamed for things it had nothing to do with & a lot of people have voted out on the premise of false promises, misinformation & lies.

There was no reasoned debate before or after the referendum was called, & the campaign quickly descended into a nasty battle led by people's self interest. Johnson & Gove were only out for their personal benefit, they really didn't or really don't care about how it affects anyone else. They've only got their eyes on the prize.


But really, it's a failure on the part of everyone. To have let our politics get into such a seedy state. We haven't been vigilant or policed ourselves as a society, and this is what we get..
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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by olan » Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:03 am

runcible wrote:Now that Cameron - inevitably - has announced he is to step down we actually face the possibility of that oaf Boris Johnson or that wanker Michael Gove as Prime Minster.

That is one very worrying thought and makes me think that Trump is a real possibility as President.

Anyone scared yet?
I'm particularly worried that the 150,000 members of the Conservative Party will now vote on who the PM will be for potentially the best part of 4 years. I can see only see a quick election if Labour tear each other apart, but otherwise we'll have had no say on who conducts the exit negotiations. Frankly, this is very, very scarey.

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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by jack white » Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:14 am

Boris will be PM.


I don't think Gove or Theresa May have the support to challenge him. & honestly he's been groomed for being PM by his pals & acolytes on Fleet Street for the best part of 30 years, it's been strangely inevitable tho preposterous until just lately.
I don't think Boris a necessarily cared about leaving the EU, but rather saw it as a chance, a risk albeit, to seize the position he has always craved. It's paid off for him.
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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by The Dr » Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:55 am

i know he has ran away but i still felt i had to write to him--

-------

Dear Prime Minister Cameron,



I woke up this morning with a feeling of complete and utter disgust finding that we had left the European Union (EU). Whilst you can quite comfortably blame the British electorate, one has to wonder how we got into this situation in the first place, namely the referendum.

Do you honestly think that the Brinish Public, who are generally not aware of the nuances of trade, economics, scientific discovery and so forth, are the ones who should be able to decide such matters? If there was any doubt all you would have to do is consult Plato who quotes Socrates as saying ‘ignorance is the root and stem of all evil’. Considering this one has to wonder why there was a referendum in the first place? Whether or not I voted for you is irrelevant (from the syntax it seems clear that I did not), but you won the election fair and square, the democratic process spoke and your party were elected (by virtue of the greatest number of constituencies) into government and the party voted for you to be its leader. Ok, fine, I respect that but I expect that this would mean that you would take the weight of the big decisions, with secretaries for state, business and so forth to help and a partisan parliament to try to keep you on the straight and narrow with regards to the running of the country, for the well-being of the country. So, to an outsider, it would appear that the whole principle of the referendum was to appease back benchers and your party’s hard line conservatives, especially those who may be considering you not fit to be leader of the party.Politics is not about personal glory, or it shouldn’t be, so as you, Mr Osborne and the majority of the party were/are aware of the consequences of leaving the EU, do you not consider it wholly irresponsible to put us in a position where we might end up leaving the EU and the ramifications that would ensue? The pound is already at a thirty-two year low against the dollar. Not only does this decision affect the country but it also affects Europe and the world with world leaders, the IMF etc making it clear before (and after with the German economic governor tweeting ‘Damn’) of the consequences.

Now it is time for you to step up and take serious action, rectify this problem. Yes your time in office has been dogged, to say the least, in terms of your personal avoidance of tax and the cuts, which may be a necessary evil, to areas which are essential in the growth of the country are one thing but to allow this referendum with the risk (I admit I am stunned by the result as I did not foresee it) of leaving the EU and all that that will entail, for possibly many generations, all for what seems to be an inability to stand up to your party- you are Prime Minister- you ultimately make the decisions and have the responsibility- yes it is a lot of pressure but you said you can do it so…- leaving us open to a world where we may possibly have Donald Trump as President of the United States of America, a country that fought for the right to be a Union, Boris Johnson, a man who commits infidelity at will and yet has never been held up by the party with demands that he rectifies his behaviour or face the sack for moral indecency- many on the right rally against homosexuality saying that the bible is against it but the bible is also against infidelity (Proverbs 6:32 - [But] whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he [that] doeth it destroyeth his own soul.)- as Prime Minister.

Yes, you could say that we have no right to expect our elected officials to be held to a higher standard than the electorate but the electorate has not put themselves in a public office and it could be said that the leaving of the EU all stems from an egregious error on your part by not being strong enough to stand up to your party- yes it is not easy but then your job is not an easy one and I respect that but still expect you to do it.

So, now the onus is on you, not to run away from your responsibilities by resigning, to repair the damage you have caused.


Yours truly,
“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

'I protest!' Behemoth exclaimed hotly. 'Dostoevsky is immortal!”

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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by The Dr » Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:56 am

incidently you can only post 1000 characters (inc spaces) to him so i had to send it in instalmanets and email the treasury hoping they'll forward it to the correct place
“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

'I protest!' Behemoth exclaimed hotly. 'Dostoevsky is immortal!”

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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by semisynthetic » Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:15 am

I awoke early, and it was very good to see your comments. There is a great deal we can learn by sharing these thoughts, opinions and any factual information. I really like the UK; it is rich in History, and every visit has been better than the previous one; but there is a great deal I do not know and I am acutely aware of it; I had no "agenda" other than my belief that the UK is the more "independent" of EU members - and with the current problems within and without the EU, I thought the people of the UK would be inclined to leave it with both the short and long-term advantages in mind. That was essentially my admittedly simple view. The UK was right to keep the £, and not take on the euro; Germany did very well on that score in the very beginning, now their Banking system is a mess; negative interest rates are not a good sign. The original Idea of the EU seemed, on the surface, to be one that would help European countries; but I never believed Nationalism would just "fade away", and everything would be just peachy. There was, and remains just too much History to this utopian idea.

But please do continue; WHY must Cameron go? And who in what party is likely to take his place? I (usually) try to at least keep up with the players, but lately my own little world has taken up most of my time; I have lost too many people very close to me for one, and I feel terribly out of the loop. So I, will sit back and read what you who are there have to convey, and I thank you for it, Truly.

I must write, however, in response the idea of The Dr.'s letter, above; "who are the British (or was that "Brinish") People to decide" does amaze me; why not simply give the Monarchy full power to do as they will? I had the idea that The UK had moved ever closer, to letting the people rule themselves. This "somewhat" elitist attitude is partly at the center of why so many DID vote the way they did; such a supercilious-look-down-the-nose at the apparently pans troglodytes, such as the UK voter, as considered by many astounds me! Who decides who decides if not the People? Peerage? The "right Degrees on their wall"? Genetic testing perhaps. I am amazed at that statement truly; but I was born in some backwater country of savages who would rather decide as much as possible ourselves and tell the so-called "elitists" to piss off. Things have gone very sour with the same "superior mindset" at the helm for far too long.
I did not intend to write in this way - but I am amazed at that point of view, it is antithetical to all I have ever believed
.
Last edited by semisynthetic on Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"Everything is a Poison; it is the amount or degree that separates one Poison from another"
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spunder
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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by spunder » Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:32 am

Boris Johnson will take his place, plays up the loveable rogue, very English doofus. he is in fact a nasty, self serving ultra right wing Eaton boys club goon.

will and has done anything to further his career.

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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by spunder » Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:37 am

like the way Farage has reneged on pumping the '£350 million' goes to EU back into the NHS already. see ya suckers!

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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by The Dr » Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:35 pm

semisynthetic wrote: I must write, however, in response the idea of "who are the British (or was that "Brinish") People to decide" does amaze me; why not simply give the Monarchy full power to do as they will? I had the idea that The UK had moved closer, not swiftly perhaps, to letting the people rule themselves. .
that's what general elections, local elections etc are for, the same way that in the us (not that i know much about your politics compared to an american) you have mid-terms- of you don't like the guy you voted in, you otherthrow the government by voting him out or create a congress that will go against him and 'control' him.

where do you stand on the american concept of 'big' and 'small' governement?


a lot of the reasons that people voted to leave the EU are superfical, hearing comments like 'we pay money to brussels, i'm sick of it' (with a few more expletives) (an obvious question being where were you when you should have been voting in the party you want to lead the country?) not realising that the country will lose more money from not being in the EU than they ever paid to 'brussels'

also they do not realise how the global markets and securities are interlinked. the fear of people from other countries will soon plae in comparision to
ISIS calls for attacks in Berlin and Brussels to 'paralyse' Europe in wake of Brexit chaos
. we have to live in a global world- free markets, join securities etc, things that only people who deal with them day in day out understand and are in the best posisiton to pass judgment on and/or decide what is best for the country and the world, not just the individual.

any election that results in marie le penn, isis, farage etc being happy cannot be a good thing for the world...
“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

'I protest!' Behemoth exclaimed hotly. 'Dostoevsky is immortal!”

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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by The Dr » Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:42 pm

“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

'I protest!' Behemoth exclaimed hotly. 'Dostoevsky is immortal!”

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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by jack white » Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:46 pm

gonna burn brightly
for a while

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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by semisynthetic » Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:00 pm

"The Dr" (should, I think), recognize sarcasm in my "response to his letter".
"Everything is a Poison; it is the amount or degree that separates one Poison from another"
Paracelsus

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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by jack white » Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:16 pm

semisynthetic wrote:I awoke early, and it was very good to see your comments. There is a great deal we can learn by sharing these thoughts, opinions and any factual information. I really like the UK; it is rich in History, and every visit has been better than the previous one; but there is a great deal I do not know and I am acutely aware of it; I had no "agenda" other than my belief that the UK is the more "independent" of EU members - and with the current problems within and without the EU, I thought the people of the UK would be inclined to leave it with both the short and long-term advantages in mind. That was essentially my admittedly simple view. The UK was right to keep the £, and not take on the euro; Germany did very well on that score in the very beginning, now their Banking system is a mess; negative interest rates are not a good sign. The original Idea of the EU seemed, on the surface, to be one that would help European countries; but I never believed Nationalism would just "fade away", and everything would be just peachy. There was, and remains just too much History to this utopian idea.

This point about history is something I've cherished & invested hope in. That the EU was the dawning of a new chapter in our, and world, history. I actually did believe nationalism would decrease, and maybe still do.
However, as a one time historian, I do tend to view things thru a different gaze that others, I don't necessarily look to the short term. I had hopes the EU would unite us for centuries, just as we have been divided for centuries. Wishful, naive thinking.
I think it's far too soon to write off the experiment. It hasn't even been 100 years of the EU compared to centuries of division. Can't we try a little longer before deciding something doesn't work?

I love my European heritage, history & culture. The place near where I grew up still retains the name given to it when the Vikings first arrived: Strangford. I feel a deep affinity with my continental citizens, hell I feel a deep affinity with citizens of the planet. I do see value in isolationism but it's not something I could embrace. I do see the scepticism, terror & pitfalls of globalisation but in finding people to share with I feel there is much more to be gained.
Last edited by jack white on Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by jack white » Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:29 pm

The Dr wrote:
a lot of the reasons that people voted to leave the EU are superfical, hearing comments like 'we pay money to brussels, i'm sick of it' (with a few more expletives) (an obvious question being where were you when you should have been voting in the party you want to lead the country?) not realising that the country will lose more money from not being in the EU than they ever paid to 'brussels'

also they do not realise how the global markets and securities are interlinked. the fear of people from other countries will soon plae in comparison..
we have to live in a global world- free markets, join securities etc, things that only people who deal with them day in day out understand and are in the best posisiton to pass judgment on and/or decide what is best for the country and the world, not just the individual.

any election that results in marie le penn, isis, farage etc being happy cannot be a good thing for the world...
A lot of people on the left voted leave.

While I share your disappointment, I don't think I understand where you're coming from here.
To me, what we're witnessing (& have witnessed this past decade) is our modern democracy & politics in action. They won. They played the game better & they won.
Now that entails a lot of dishonesty & you're right to point out the contradictory anger of people - what were they expecting when they voted Cameron/the Tories in twice & then bemoan the situation they find themselves in. It is hard to contain that dismay. But it's part of the game they've played so well. They're masters at manipulation. & with the media backing them, the power that they have wielded for the last 6/7 years has been abhorrent & will be a stain on our history (if we ever make it out of this world alive..). Runci I think raised the point in the other thread how quick they are to change the story & how effective they are at doing it. First on the economy it was to change the story to the disabled and benefit fraud, backed by the [right wing] press they contorted & distorted the story & created outrageous lies, creating a toxic atmosphere of paranoia and distress, & managed to push thru their agenda: PiP has come in & millions have lost their benefit entitlement rightly or, as is a lot of the times, wrongly. Lately it has been migration and the supposed thread it carries to jobs and housing, a total fabrication but look at the impact it has had on this referendums results.
They have played the game & won.
We let them. Maybe that's where a lot of the anger comes from.


I dunno, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but this referendum just seems to follow naturally in the series of Tory policy. To my eyes it looks like the rich are dividing the cake again to give themselves a bigger slice. They've used the tools at their disposal to hoodwink the vulnerable for their own gain. Just more of the same. And we let them get away with it, time & time again.
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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by jack white » Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:34 pm

gonna burn brightly
for a while

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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by spacemanrich » Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:39 pm

WTF , it is now 6:30am and I'm waking up to this shocking news ! I though for sure that the U.K. wouldn't leave the EU. Cameron already resigned and the stockmarket is wobbly :shock:

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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by The Dr » Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:45 pm

jack white wrote: Now that entails a lot of dishonesty & you're right to point out the contradictory anger of people - what were they expecting when they voted Cameron/the Tories in twice & then bemoan the situation they find themselves in. It is hard to contain that dismay.

my point is that a lot of people who voted in this did not vote at all in the other elections- this is some people's first election vote

yes they won fair and square and the petition that you posted (and i signed) is just j=us throwing our toys out of the pram, but if people realsied the facts would they still have voted to leave?

i don't know which wing the people who voted are- i assume it is both
“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

'I protest!' Behemoth exclaimed hotly. 'Dostoevsky is immortal!”

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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by jack white » Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:49 pm

semisynthetic wrote: why not simply give the Monarchy full power to do as they will?

I think the Queen was for Brexit, apparently.
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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by clewsr » Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:04 pm

I think the Tory party has played a blinder - they got to have the referendum, and while it hugely split the party down the middle in either outcome they win. Either Cameron comes out stronger or Golden Boy Boris takes the reigns. I wouldn't be surprised if they planned it all from outset, while fucking a pig. They got themselves a risk free shot at it early on in parliament with little danger of the government collapsing.

Meanwhile when the moment is now for Labour to set out a new vision of the future all it's MPS can do it plan a coup against Corbryn, who might be quite handy in a brexit world, at least he seems to have an idea in his head of the possibility of a post exit progressive Britain. If labour simply sit back and say the result was wrong UKIP will destroy them in England the way SNP has done in Scotland.

I voted remain, but we need to be careful as considering anyone who voted out as just dumb or xenophobic. That's a lot of the country we'd be writing off.

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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by The Dr » Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:10 pm

jack white wrote:


I think the Queen was for Brexit, apparently.

bloody germans :roll: :wink:
“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

'I protest!' Behemoth exclaimed hotly. 'Dostoevsky is immortal!”

jack white
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Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2004 11:29 pm
Location: Tralfamadore

Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by jack white » Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:15 pm

gonna burn brightly
for a while

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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by spacemanrich » Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:23 pm

We have a bigger kraut in the form of Trump that is most frightening to say the least. 6 months ago they did a preliminary poll between Clinton and Trump and she was way ahead and now he has narrowed the gap to 5-10 %. Gives you the mentality of the American people if your going to vote for a twat like Trump. Most frightening ...

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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by semisynthetic » Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:25 pm

jack white wrote: - taken from semisynthetic
why not simply give the Monarchy full power to do as they will?
I think the Queen was for Brexit, apparently.(Jack White)

My quoted comment was originally written with a tone of sarcasm, Not Suggestion.

However, it would be enlightening, just to see how widespread and how many of those on the left, right and middle voted on (both) sides of the referendum. Furthermore, to learn the specific reasons given FOR WHY each voted as they did would be interesting reading. It would give far more insight into this vote than simply "for" or "against". (semisynthetic)
"Everything is a Poison; it is the amount or degree that separates one Poison from another"
Paracelsus

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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by jack white » Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:30 pm

“The younger generation has lost the right to live and work in 27 other countries. We will never know the full extent of lost opportunities, friendships, marriages and experiences we will be denied. Freedom of movement was taken away by our parents, uncles and grandparents in a parting blow to a generation that was already drowning in the debts of its predecessors.”
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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by The Dr » Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:43 pm

jack white wrote:“The younger generation has lost the right to live and work in 27 other countries. We will never know the full extent of lost opportunities, friendships, marriages and experiences we will be denied. Freedom of movement was taken away by our parents, uncles and grandparents in a parting blow to a generation that was already drowning in the debts of its predecessors.”
and the whole 'ten billion a day romanians will move in' is based on what? just because the borders would be 'open' does not mean that they would be used, surely a better alternative would be to get into europe and help to increase the infrastructure of the poorer nations- the problem is not that it is so wonderful here, it is that there are no jobs in many other countries, tho many italian 'youngsters' moved to the uk to work and then bugged off saying that the english had no culture but getting drunk
“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

'I protest!' Behemoth exclaimed hotly. 'Dostoevsky is immortal!”

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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by semisynthetic » Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:51 pm

Runcible noted that Cameron had stepped down; (I am not up yet, and have not seen the news); His stepping down - is this simply because he had backed a point of view that did not go his way? Surely if a Prime Minister called the outcome of any given Vote incorrectly, there would be a great turnover in Prime Ministers; or was it because he failed to convince enough people to vote as "his" government wished in such a Historic Vote as this, or both, or some other point I am not aware of? I thought his "hiding" cash with other "distinguished world leaders" would make him vulnerable - is that also a part of the equation? There is no doubt that I am not used to that office - but it does seem a precarious one.

I would like to know "Why".
"Everything is a Poison; it is the amount or degree that separates one Poison from another"
Paracelsus

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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by jack white » Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:12 pm

semisynthetic wrote:Runcible noted that Cameron had stepped down; (I am not up yet, and have not seen the news); His stepping down - is this simply because he had backed a point of view that did not go his way? Surely if a Prime Minister called the outcome of any given Vote incorrectly, there would be a great turnover in Prime Ministers;

I would like to know "Why".

Referendums are actually quite uncommon in the UK. It's not the same thing as losing the vote on a bill in parliament/the commons. That has happened to him, and pressure about his leadership suitability is never far from people's tongues, including his own party.

His stepping down here really is simply because he backed a view that didn't go his way - in a national referendum - and now would have to negotiate an exit deal. It seems it wouldn't be correct for him to negotiate a deal for exiting when he was on the other side of the argument. In actuality there's no real, legal or constitutional reason why he should step down.

There was a lot of theorising, throughout his tenure from the moment he promised this referendum, that it would bring a leadership challenge if he was defeated. In many respects the figureheads of the Leave campaign were more invested in removing & replacing Cameron than they were genuine supporters of exiting the EU: they've merely used this referendum to gain political capital and outmanoeuvre Cameron from inside his own party.

The other thing is that there is precedence for this. The two previous Tory prime ministers, John major & that bitch thatcher, were both fatally undermined by the EU divisions within their party. In a way Cameron made a rod with his own back with this referendum (tho he had to promise it initially to his euro-sceptic backbencher's so as to get the support he needed at the time).
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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by semisynthetic » Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:21 pm

Thank you - several people made this very clear and understandable; I appreciate it very much.
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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by jack white » Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:33 pm

clewsr wrote: Meanwhile when the moment is now for Labour to set out a new vision of the future all it's MPS can do it plan a coup against Corbryn, who might be quite handy in a brexit world, at least he seems to have an idea in his head of the possibility of a post exit progressive Britain. If labour simply sit back and say the result was wrong UKIP will destroy them in England the way SNP has done in Scotland.

I voted remain, but we need to be careful as considering anyone who voted out as just dumb or xenophobic. That's a lot of the country we'd be writing off.
I think I was maybe in Islington once, a while ago. Since he's become labour leader I've seen nothing to indicate Corbryn might be quite handy at anything. His behaviour during this referendum has been perfunctory at best. He seems cocooned in his London borough, unable or unwilling to reach out to the rest of the country & has surrendered traditional labour strongholds to bloody farage & ukip. In short he has let the country down. His notion not to share a stage with Cameron was ultimately misguided & pretty shameless & selfish. He's shown no leadership in this referendum.


& while I pointed out to the dr that a lot of the leave votes came from the left, there is still a dangerous undercurrent (if even that anymore) of rising xenophobia sweeping thru the UK. & there's a lot of uneducated people preyed upon by architects of politics, who have been swayed by the ignominious conduct of the media & some of the language of the leave campaign leaders.
There is a lot of dissatisfaction from both sides. It was a terrible time to have the referendum. Or the perfect time depending on your point of view I suppose..
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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by jack white » Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:43 pm

75% of 18-35 year olds voted Remain.

The choices the generations above me have made this past decade, that impact the futures of the young, are absolutely mind boggling. This is a shameful time in our history.

So it goes..
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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by The Dr » Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:30 pm

but how can you define left and right? a lot of the areas which went against the eu were in the north which are (usually) labour strong holds but there is also a lot of bigitory in that area so what is left?


i find it strange that over the years the majority of the people who complain about imiagration are foreign. i have had many conversations where they bemoan the english loss of identity whilst living in small *insert nation* communities
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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by niamhm » Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:34 pm

jack white wrote:75% of 18-35 year olds voted Remain.

The choices the generations above me have made this past decade, that impact the futures of the young, are absolutely mind boggling. This is a shameful time in our history.

So it goes..

This percentage is of 18 - 25 yr olds who bothered to vote.

Been hearing some staggering figures being thrown around about percentage of 18- 25 yr olds who didn`t bother to vote, figure I keep reading all afternoon is 75%!!

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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by jack white » Fri Jun 24, 2016 8:37 pm

Well the fact there was a 72% turn out would suggest quite a lot of younger voters did bother to vote.. But we'll see. Whatever the amount it still captures the hopes & mood of the younger voters had, & maybe hope for a more concrete influence in the near future, whenever it is they may get a chance to vote again..
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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by Martin L » Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:09 pm

I voted remain and being from a family of immigrants it shocked me of the narrow mindedness of the majority. I can't wait to see how long it is before Scotland call for a referendum to leave the UK and rejoin the EU and good luck to them

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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by jack white » Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:40 pm

I think this is one of the more illuminating articles I've seen over the past few days:
(when I say illuminating.. well you might actually be more perplexed by the end of it really..)

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... -ebbw-vale
View from Wales: town showered with EU cash votes to leave EU

EU-funded road in Wales
“What’s the EU ever done for us?” Zak Kelly, 21, asks me this standing next to a brand new complex of buildings and facilities that wouldn’t look out of place in Canary Wharf. It’s not Canary Wharf, though, it’s Ebbw Vale, a former steel town of 18,000 people in the heart of the Welsh valleys, where 62% of the population – the highest proportion in Wales – voted Leave.

To go there – along a new dual carriageway – and stand next to the town’s new sixth form and training college, a glass and steel architectural showpiece next to its new leisure centre, a few hundred yards away from a new train station, is to stare into the abyss of the UK’s failed Remain campaign.

Even Kelly, who has just finished a training session on a brand new football pitch, backtracks slightly after asking that question. “Well, I know … they built all this,” he says, and motions his head at the impressive facilities that are all around us. “But we put in more money than we get out, don’t we?”

We’re standing on the site of the old steelworks, a toxic industrial wasteland left rotting when the plant, once the biggest in Europe, finally closed in 2002. It’s now “The Works” – a flagship £350m regeneration project funded by the EU redevelopment fund and home to the £33.5m Coleg Gwent, where some of the 29,000 Welsh apprenticeships the European Social Fund pays for help young people learn a trade. Add in a new £30m railway line and £80m improvement to the Heads of the Valley road from other pots of EU money, and the town centre has just received £12.2m for various upgrades and improvements.

Ebbw Vale, left devastated when the steelworks closed, has had more European money poured into it than perhaps any other small town in Britain. But according to the figures Kelly heard, “we get out £7m a year from the EU and we put in £19m”. Anyway, he says, “it was time for a change”.

And change is now coming. But what it will mean for an area dependent on inward investment and with the highest unemployment in Wales – nearly 40% of people are either unemployed or not available for work – has yet to be seen. In the local fish and chip shop, Deborah Basini says that she voted Remain. “All my family did. I’m very worried about what’s going to happen to inward investment. I’m 60 – this isn’t going to affect me. It’ll be my grandchildren who are not yet born.” Her customers, however, thought differently. “There was only one word people had on their mind: immigration. They didn’t look at the facts at all.”

Are there any immigrants in Ebbw Vale? “No! Hardly any. And the ones there are are all working, all contributing. It’s just … illogical. I just don’t think people looked at the facts at all.”

It’s a town with almost no immigrants that voted to get the immigrants out. A town that has been showered with EU cash that no longer wants to be part of the EU. A town that holds some of the clues, perhaps, in understanding quite how spectacularly the Remain message failed to land. There’s a sense of injustice that is far greater than the sum of the facts, and the political landscape has fractured and split. Zak Kelly says that many of his friends, in what is Nye Bevan’s old constituency, voted Ukip.

Wales isn’t just a net EU beneficiary, EU capital funding has been an essential part of attracting firms to come here. All around town are signs marked with the EU flag for the Ebbw Vale enterprise zone. The website notes that as an EU tier 1 area, “companies can benefit from the highest level of grant aid in the UK”. Earlier this year the sports car company TVR announced it would build a factory and create 150 jobs there. Will it still come? Will the Circuit of Wales, a multimillion-pound motor racing circuit a private company has been proposing to build on the town’s outskirts creating 6,000 jobs? Will the £1.8bn of EU cash promised to Wales for projects until 2020 still arrive? And what happens after? Will central government really give more money to Ebbw Vale than the EU has?

Even Kelly looks like he could be doubtful on this point. “David Cameron got a good kicking,” he says. So, what about Boris Johnson? Do you want him? “No way. He’s London through and through. He’ll just forget about Wales.”

Or as Michael Sheen, the Welsh-born actor from Port Talbot, tweeted: “Wales votes to trust a new and more rightwing Tory leadership to invest as much money into its poorer areas as EU has been doing.”

“It is what it is,” says Kelly. “We’ll see, won’t we?”
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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by simonkeeping » Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:30 pm

The whole thing is fucked. I don't think there's a better way of explaining the horrific circumstances the UK is right now. It's a return to the narrow minded foreigner blaming of the 60's, 70's and 80's. The older generation and the ill informed scared that they 'might be losing their country' to immigrants have voted out. They have also destroyed the pound and burned their own pensions in the process. By and large the big cosmopolitan cities have voted remain as they understand that multi-culturism not only works but keeps this country running. And many of us have friends from Europe and further afield.

I feel utterly ashamed to my core that the nation I call home has voted this way. It disgusts me that people I know and love feel so despised and alone as a result of this vote. My wife was in tears this morning, Scared of what's going to happen to her, to our friends, to our jobs, to our future. Those c*nts Farage, Gove and Boris have sold the public down the river (with downright lies and scaremongering) on a promise of a better future and more control and we've exactly the opposite. things are going to go very dark from here on in. People have already started opening racially abusing people in the street -

Fascism doesn't happen over night. it's like a dripping tap that seeps into the brickwork and over a period of time starts destroying the structure of things from the inside. We are very close to returning to the 70's. Its become ok socially to blame immigrants for all manner of social issues which have been caused by austerity. The media have no issue banding them together en masse and calling them rapists and criminals. Kids travelling alone to escape war zones are disappearing, drowning. Children? human children? And then we have to watch as bigoted old fuckers rant on about how it's better we keep the foreigners out and how They should go back to Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan.

I'm heartbroken. This has done untold damage to this country and the nations psyche is turning very dark, very insular and unwelcoming to anything remotely Un-English. You know what, when all those bigots who voted out are suffering heart conditions from eating too many full English breakfasts with chips and the NHS is privitised and they can't afford healthcare Independence for this shitty little, narrow minded island isn't going to look like such a great idea...

To quote an often used phrase - there is no future in England's Dreaming.
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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by simonkeeping » Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:31 pm

This quite apt too:

friday's going to be amazing! i'm going to wake up in my Union Jack jim-jams to the sound of a squadron of Spitfires racing overhead and leaving a trail of hot buttered crumpets behind them

I'll run to the corner shop past all the british children who are laughing and squealing with excitement as they make a beautiful statue of the queen out of happy wriggling bulldog puppies - with two corgis for her eyebrows!

bunting flutters everywhere and the man from the betting shop steps into the street - "guess what! England just won the World Cup & The Ashes & The Grand National and here's the best bit - Boris put a bet on it for everyone! you're all MILLIONAIRES!!!"

the red arrows fly overhead dropping fish and chips as i walk into the corner shop, get my morning paper and go to the counter. "how much please?" i say to the asian lad there. "1 pence, everything in the whole shop now costs just 1p!" he laughs, "leave it on the counter, i'm off back to pakistan - we all are!"

and he's right! outside in the streets jolly old nigel farage is leading a huge crowd of happy foreigners - turks, poles, romanians, syrians - there's even a few English people with heavy suntans mixed up in there! nigel's playing Rule Britannia on a long pipe, rather like the pipe that takes the gas into your oven, and they're all following and smiling and talking foreign, bless them!

just then boris flies overhead in a concorde made of Bank of England gold - "don't worry!" he laughs "I've cut out all the bits the French made!" and with that he crashes into the ground at 1200 miles an hour, along with the economy, the country and all the dozy nostalgic foreigner-fearing fuckwits who fell for his bullshit.

grow up. wake up.

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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by semisynthetic » Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:00 pm

I have read every Post to this thread, and as someone outside of the UK (and EU), I do get the impression that so many people are so disgruntled with their government, they happily outsource projects at a tremendous rate to a country of technocrats who cleverly carry out projects that are on the face of it all difficult to contest; doing all of this for a MERE 50% of £20 Billion, and again, cleverly undermining the UK government.

Politics and Politicians are generally speaking, the muck and mire of the "elite"; but to see written these multiple inventions, creating the ideas that from all sides of the political spectrum manipulated the "ignorant and bigoted" is unnecessary. Is it not possible that just enough people have had enough of what they see as negative points by staying in the EU?

I live in such a very different place; the idea that technocrats in Canada would decide what I could do or what I could own, while some tiny island near Bermuda would be the place Judicial matters would be controlled and held would simply never be acceptable here.

What we know as the UK today did quite well for 1600+ years before the EU came along; and as much as I admire many of your Idealism, I never thought this idea would last; in Historical terms it is a blink.

There is still a great deal of Nationalist Pride, and viewpoints that simply do not fit together. At least 6 countries who once murmured their desire to "get out" of the EU now openly wish it. I believe the only, and likely the last to want to leave will be Greece. The UK has paid an enormous % to keep a badly run cradle-to-grave neo-socialist country keeping at what made them broke! Other countries want out so they can pay their own bloated social-planning(?) habits as they too run out of money trying to keep their own "Greecian" plans afloat.

Surely the frightening prospect of No-Go Zones of the French, taken over by those who refuse to even attempt to assimilate in their new homes came to mind, but I saw this as a primarily economic and even a result from too many bully-boy tactics from too many to vote "remain", that enough people were just simply tired of being told how to live;
especially those who knew a UK without a EU.
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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by jack white » Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:33 pm

Personally, I have more in common, and more faith in, the technocrats of Brussels than the Conservative Party & the rising right of England.

Maybe more than that I benefit more from the technocrats of Brussels than I do the Tories.

Without getting too deep into history & the politics involved, I am terribly disappointed that the people of England (& Wales) hold such authority over me & the region I live. I would gladly take every decision away from them, & if giving that power to Brussels is the alternative I would take it right now to get away from them. I have never been British.

In the UK I'm living in a plutocracy.
I think what's on offer from Brussels is a much more progressive & fair. It's not perfect, it's not even great, but it's a work in progress & deserves a chance.
England/the UK got on quite well for 1600+ well that depends on what side of history you're on.. & besides, it is precisely that, history.

There are legitimate concerns like the ones you raise, the no-go zones for example. The solution that's being enacted now however isn't the correct one & only gives rise to a similar reaction: we're already seeing reports of xenophobic & racist incidents occurring in England. The other side are as capable of creating no-go zones & rejecting assimilation themselves: "Men chanting 'OUT OUT OUT' @ Muslim women in Brockley. Woman in an Enfield bank shouting 'this is England we're white get out of my country'" https://mobile.twitter.com/KeremBrulee/ ... 9921813508


The problem with seeing it as an economic result is that a lot of places benefited from EU funding but failed to acknowledge this, see the article I posted above. Why would they trust the plutocrats to invest in their regions or towns more than they would the EU? The problem with seeing it as those being tired of being told how to live is they are handing power to people who won't only not tell them how to live, but will govern as if they don't even exist, as they have done the past 6-20 years. A lot of people are blaming the EU for problems that stem from Westminister. & really I saw a different side of the campaign & to me the bully boy tactics resoundingly came from the leave side. Yes, remain quickly descended into a negative campaign but both sides were as guilty of scaremongering, manipulating & lying. It was terrible, dispiriting, toxic campaign that lacked the kind of virtuous parliamentary debate the UK was once home to, however briefly.
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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by semisynthetic » Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:42 am

Thank you Jack for your very coherent and decent reply.
If you are Scottish or Irish or Welsh, I do understand the feelings of oppression; but I am sorry that I can't keep up with where everyone here lives; Otherwise I am sorry that you see no reason for any optimism in the Current UK; but I believe this is a moment in time to be optimistic, and to make your desires for certain programs to be of the UK rather than another country. I am very proud of my own European ancestry, albeit removed in time and space by some nearly 200 years.

(I have asked before just who among you regular communicate with members of your government; at least "The Dr" wrote, though it may have best written differently for certain reasons. When no one answered in the past, I did wonder CAN they write letters or call or meet? But the UK is very different than the government of the USA; contact and "sheer numbers" do change votes in the Congress. I call
or meet or write regularly, certainly at both the State & Federal levels. It does seem to have influence when greater numbers of the constituency makes contact often).

The EU experiment had Noble Intent; by 1950 there had been too many wars for a strange tapestry of reasons this is the major reason of many reasons that I believe the experiment is beginning to at last come to a close.

Again, I thank you for your honesty and sharing your opinions; I most sincerely appreciate it. It is a very different World than just a very few years ago, and at the moment, not a better one; but I think this can change if enough people really mean they have had "enough". The fact that the UK lacks a Constitution or a more concrete way of ruling other than a sort of "decree" method is far away from what I am used to; I once saw a fellow with an ancient, thick binder of "methods", as he referred to them, "as close to a USA Style of Constitution we are likely to have. Those last 5 words stuck in my mind, and I did not like his insinuation.

P.S.
The "bully-boy" tactics I referred to was the decidedly ONE SIDED view of this from the Government, Banks, and others, the constantly pounding the Idea on the BBC without ever offering an alternative view; this sort of thing annoys me greatly; and I was amazed at what I saw on the BBC alone. Despite the "UK Channels" I have added, not once did I hear or see a fair debate - I did not even see an "exit" Ad mentioned in hours of watching - this was very troubling to me and not at all what I expected from the UK, and something I would abhor at home, even if some media are decidedly one-sided; at least I can change the channel and hear a more reasoned debate on nearly everything if I look enough; I did not have that capability with my few UK Channels. I was also disappointed that the US President worded his not so veiled threat as he did. No matter what, the UK should always be considered an ally of the USA, and not to be threatened by the "elites" the BREXIT people clearly said No to.

I most sincerely wish the UK and the People the Very Best; it will be made tough on you for going against the Powers That Be, and this might be a wake up call to those who are smart enough to see it, and to not simply take the people for granted. I hope more of you DO pose your opinions to your government in a civil way, a thoughtful way that is more likely to be listened to. You deserve better than to depend upon an outside government, at least that is my very humble opinion.
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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by clewsr » Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:29 am

semisynthetic wrote:
I most sincerely wish the UK and the People the Very Best; it will be made tough on you for going against the Powers That Be, and this might be a wake up call to those who are smart enough to see it, and to not simply take the people for granted. I hope more of you DO pose your opinions to your government in a civil way, a thoughtful way that is more likely to be listened to. You deserve better than to depend upon an outside government, at least that is my very humble opinion.
It must trouble you have all your laws made in Washington, no? It must be a long way away from where you live? You probably in a different state?

We get the Government we deserve sadly.

Europe tends to be slightly more left wing than UK government has been and the UK is even more supine to big business than EU. I do not trust our government to take effective decisions in the interests of the majority. I trust the EU slightly more. I have lived in Liverpool for twenty years now. The tories wanted to leave it to managed decline - a little like Detroit in the US. EU money and investment helped saved the city. Our idiot press doesn't often talk about things like that. The popular press is rabid and hate filled. It must be in the owner's interests I guess. But for even the sanest person - If you read a hate filled wrag like the Daily Mail every day, then it can't help but colour your opinion on the world. One reason why so many pensioners voted leave I think.

You, like lots in the US seem to think of socialism as a dirty word no different from communism. I'm interested how you took to Sanders' message? I liked the fact he was not afraid to use the word. Is your stand point more Trump or Sanders?

Generally I feel a lot more depressed this week. Labour is melting down and unless they can pull themselves together they will wither and we will be left with the Tories and UKIP as the two main parties and that is fucking terrifying.

I still hold out some hope as there are increasingly coy sounds about actually signing article 50 to exit. Maybe it won't actually happen and it can just be a massive fucking national embarrassment instead.

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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by The Dr » Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:04 am

The shock result of the U.K.’s EU referendum has erased more than $2 trillion in paper wealth.
source international buisness times
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'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by simonkeeping » Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:40 pm

spunder wrote:like the way Farage has reneged on pumping the '£350 million' goes to EU back into the NHS already. see ya suckers!
Exactly, it was written on a massive bus and he said it in an interview?
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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by semisynthetic » Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:29 pm

clewsr wrote:
It must trouble you have all your laws made in Washington, no? It must be a long way away from where you live? You probably in a different state?

We get the Government we deserve sadly.

Europe tends to be slightly more left wing than UK government has been and the UK is even more supine to big business than EU. I do not trust our government to take effective decisions in the interests of the majority. I trust the EU slightly more. I have lived in Liverpool for twenty years now. The tories wanted to leave it to managed decline - a little like Detroit in the US. EU money and investment helped saved the city. Our idiot press doesn't often talk about things like that. The popular press is rabid and hate filled. It must be in the owner's interests I guess. But for even the sanest person - If you read a hate filled wrag like the Daily Mail every day, then it can't help but colour your opinion on the world. One reason why so many pensioners voted leave I think.

You, like lots in the US seem to think of socialism as a dirty word no different from communism. I'm interested how you took to Sanders' message? I liked the fact he was not afraid to use the word. Is your stand point more Trump or Sanders?

Generally I feel a lot more depressed this week. Labour is melting down and unless they can pull themselves together they will wither and we will be left with the Tories and UKIP as the two main parties and that is fucking terrifying.

I still hold out some hope as there are increasingly coy sounds about actually signing article 50 to exit. Maybe it won't actually happen and it can just be a massive fucking national embarrassment instead.
Remember that the USA had its start by having enough of essentially NO representation by a King across the Atlantic. That wouldn't do. Whether you're ignored 200 miles away or across an ocean, you are still ignored; and since "the colonies" were so FAR, it simply didn't make sense to follow and do what we were told, when there was an obviously better way. I believe strongly that the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and Bill of Rights are all so much more than simply Documents; they are a way of Life.
Until very recently, Americans have had a disdain of being told what to do; "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" is not just something carved here and there, it means a great deal to most, and certainly to me. The people's disdain has returned.
Less government is simply better. The US Government should restrict itself to protecting the people from threats, foreign and domestic, and do the absolute LEAST to invade what we the people, do. Until the 1st World War, there was no income tax. WWII was very expensive; and not wanting to be caught again with our pants down, we built a Military that is again, not cheap.

It is true that the Congress meets to VOTE in Washington, but many Senators and Representatives return home often. As a coincidence of sorts, the representative from my area, along with some Hospital Staff and Physicians, including my wife, and her "APN" (a kind of nurse), are meeting near the Hospital; we have a house in the city near that area, so I will drive the 45 minutes from the home in the Country where we live, to talk with him about ongoing matters and NEW problems and Ideas. But I write letters and call fairly often, ALL of my representatives, and a great many more from other states.
I have learned a "real letter" often gets attention whereas an email is lost in the crowd.

Your mention of Bernie Sanders, is an interesting case. The Left have begun calling him a "long time back row Senator without accomplishment; mainly because he gave Hillary Clinton a run for (someone else's money), and it did not help her campaign for Mr. Sanders to win so often, but have "superdelegates", like hounds after scraps carry her to victory. That little exercise helped show even the Left here how loaded and corrupt the system is; the Right is similarly set up to keep out "new people", and this seeming Revelation has pissed people off on both sides.

It is said Politics makes strange bedfellows, and so it is with Sanders and Trump. The first lives in that Twilight Zone of "everything is free" (at other's expense), a Socialist, and Trump sees the idea of making everyone richer than they are now by getting the government out of the way. The Odd thing is, many Sanders voters will vote for Trump because they cannot abide Clinton. She stands for just about everything that people are pissed off about. The Idea of being above the Law is not new, but to talk up "women's rights of equality" while taking in an unknown figure of somewhere between $5 Million to $25 Million from the House of Saud, where women are second class citizens has not gone over very well. Her husband's Continued philandering is bizarre - the Secret Service, one of those perks for life they have, give these women "code names" to tell Bill when Hillary is on her way "home". It is so sick and and a continued embarrassment, but the "media" by in large, say and report very little that matters.

The thing is, Sanders and Trump are NOT Hillary, and therefore are more attractive to increasing numbers of people. Her accomplishments are sparse, so to date, she must try to unravel Trump's campaign by ad hominem attack; that's all she has.

Anyway, it is not difficult for me to discuss or share my thoughts or observations with my representatives; the REAL PROBLEM are the entrenched leadership of BOTH sides; the new, would be kings that increasing numbers of people once again despise. I am always roughest on my own party, and I am politically conservative; which in this Orwellian Wonderland means I wish to be left alone, and have a situation where once again people have upward mobility through work and not handouts.

About 20 miles away, or 30 minutes because of terrain, a "Government Housing" complex caught fire, and a very beautiful and costly car was in danger; so after the Volunteer Fire Department had evacuated the area, a friend of mine, who is a volunteer, tracked down which room or apartment the owner lived in; for $50 month - a real bargain; housing is not cheap; my friend told him of the danger to this very healthy, young fellow who threw him the keys and rudely said "move it"! How bizarre! So, the volunteer thought there may be an elderly person there or children, or someone infirm; no - the fire had interrupted this unemployed fellow's "NAP"! So the napper received his keys back and was warned to move his car, the fire was very intense, and many older people who needed help were being tended to. As he continued to nap, the car he'd been warned about was badly scorched because he was too lazy to move his own car! He sued! The judge fined him for leaving a hazard in the way, and said that unfortunately stupidity wasn't illegal or he'd fine him for that TOO!
There are increasingly too many "nappers" that get so much for "free" that they drain the system that so many others work hard to provide; but I maintain the only "free" thing we have is our last breath, and then more costly things occur. I have had 3 deaths in the family this year; 5 in the last 5 years; I never asked the "state" or anyone outside the family to help with these expenses, and I believe that is how it should be.
But there must be better jobs - not handouts or Platitudes on the Election Tour. I am ashamed that for the first time in our history, a major political candidate who has lied so often about matters of such import, that she is under multiple FBI Investigations. You referred to a lousy media - here, we see a chart of 432 "bad stories" about the Republican, and roughly 132 about the candidate under multiple FBI and other assorted Inspector General inquiries of extremely nasty goings on. That meets the Agenda of the "elites", and is Clinton's Achilles heel.

This has been the strangest Presidential Election season I can recall for a great many reasons.
The "fix is in" by those in power, it has been exposed, and people of very different political persuasions have had enough; that means a terrible season ahead. Bernie Sanders should stay in the race lest Clinton be subject to FBI suggestion she be indicted - which is not so far fetched - but it would likely be for the "Global Slush Fund", and not the illegal (and plainly stupid) personal server scandal. "Follow the Money" is what the FBI is doing, amongst a great many other things.

There are those in politics who I believe do try to help the people; and I communicate with them. But sadly, too many feather their own nests with lies and deceit, obfuscation and double-talk. I am very curious (and worried) to see what the future holds.
Last edited by semisynthetic on Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by The Dr » Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:32 pm

In the days after the U.K. voted to leave the EU, social media has exploded with accounts of foreigners being abused on the street, as well as graffiti and hate mail campaigns apparently linked to the Brexit vote. Police are investigating incidents that seemingly targeted Polish people, and lawmakers will be raising the matter in Parliament Monday.
this is the result of a stupid, illconceived government policy and i can't see it getting better. i've been asking people for one good point of the leave and thus far no one has had one
“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

'I protest!' Behemoth exclaimed hotly. 'Dostoevsky is immortal!”

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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by runcible » Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:50 pm

The thing I am really concerned about now is that that horrible oaf Johnson is likely to end up Prime Minister. This is the man who was once Mayor of London and claimed he loved the city. London inevitably voted Remain because of the financial links with Europe which it needs kept open. Yet the man who was once mayor screwed the city big time by leading the Leave camp - no wonder Londoners booed him and shouted 'traitor' when he left his home on Friday morning. What's more he was supportive of Remain until early this year until he realised by supporting Leave he could turbo-charge his career. He was also an old mate of Cameron (who I am no fan of BTW) and by standing against him effectively destroyed him. The reason is simply that he saw a fast track way of getting what he wants for himself - i.e. being PM - so I never felt he was sincere in his support of Leave. It was all done for personal career reasons so he has put himself ahead of London, ahead of the country and ahead of his old friends. I have to say that makes me feel pretty sick.

This whole mess is largely the fault of career politicians who will do pretty much anything to further themselves. If you want more evidence of this look at George Osborne, someone who has been Cameron's right hand man for some time. After the EU vote he was silent, right up to this morning. Now they are saying he is going to support Johnson's push to become party leader and therefore PM. Osborne is looking for some new ally to cling to in order to keep his career afloat. Cameron must see 'stitch up' all over this. These people abandon any principle - the truth seems to be the main one - if it means their jobs are safe, and everyone else can do one. The whole thing stinks.

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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by semisynthetic » Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:36 am

Yes, Runcible,
It stinks on ice, and much of the USA electorate feel the same way as you outline in your last paragraph about our own "elitist scum" who will say or do anything for power and control; like some sort of mental disease. Spot on.
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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by jack white » Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:35 am

I really hope Jeremy hunt stands of Tory leader.
Maybe I should be careful what I wish for in this climate..
Seriously a more loathesome gathering than hunt, may, boris could only be worsened by Ian Duncan smith..

Marina Hyde just nails it: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... m-promises
Britain faces leaderless turmoil. But don’t worry, Boris is back from the cricket

You’d think leave’s career fibbers would have a plan to get out of the lies they told before the referendum. Instead they say they’ve had enough of promises

Nothing indicates quite what a bloody nose the referendum was for the establishment like discovering that Boris Johnson spent Sunday playing cricket with Earl Spencer and writing his £250,000 a year column for the Daily Telegraph. Given that the victory speech he and Michael Gove made on Friday looked more like a hostage video, the chief purpose of Johnson’s column seemed to be to assure Britain he had Taken Back Control of his sphincter muscles.

Amusingly, after the emotive and divisive campaign he headed, Johnson’s team were briefing that he would be running for the Tory leadership as a “unity candidate” – Unity Mitford?

According to reports, Tory chiefs are clearing his path to the leadership by scrapping potential stumbling blocks like the proposed mandatory inclusion of a woman candidate on the shortlist, and are timetabling the contest for before 2 September, with that speed thought to favour the favourite. “The pound is stable,” explained Johnson, minutes before the pound was revealed to have fallen to a 31-year low, on a morning of financial activity we’ll call Episode V: The Experts Strike Back.

Meanwhile, former Sun editor Kelvin MacKenzie is perhaps the most prominent voice to have confessed to regretting his vote in Thursday’s referendum. The high priest of Up Yours Delors is just one of countless leave voters suffering red pill remorse, who are urgently seeking to get in touch with Morpheus to ask if they can be plugged back into the Matrix at his earliest convenience. Someone needs to level with them: Morpheus isn’t coming. Morpheus shorted red pills as soon as the markets opened. Morpheus has pulled his leather trenchcoat business from the UK and is now operating out of Frankfurt.

Given the sense of utterly leaderless turmoil, Britain spent the weekend contemplating a bizarre thought experiment: are there circumstances in which it would be comforting to clap eyes on George Osborne? The chancellor finally broke cover on Monday morning. Interspersed with the argument that austerity had put the economy in a position of strength were coded hints of cuts, suggesting that sections of the public are soon to find out the answer to the question: “What does the economy have to do with the public?” A ComRes survey during the penultimate week of the campaign found 61% of voters declaring themselves willing to accept a short-term economic slowdown to tighten immigration controls, but 68% unwilling to see their personal annual income negatively affected at all to achieve the same.

That leave had no agreed plan on Brexit, meanwhile, feels like just one of the WTF-tinged elements of our new reality. But as career fibbers, you’d think they’d at least have had an agreed plan on how to get out of the lies they’d told during the campaign. Instead, the public has been treated to a parade of junior leave personnel effectively explaining that Britain had had enough of promises. Most wince-inducing was Iain Duncan Smith, who explained to Andrew Marr: “Our promises were a range of possibilities.” That’s right – think of them as colour swatches, paint samples – a sort of pledge moodboard. And try not to notice that Britain’s walls are today decorated less appealingly than those of H-block in 1978.

Scrawled on the Polish Social and Cultural Centre (PSOK) in London’s Hammersmith, founded by the generation of Poles who fought alongside Britain in the second world war, was graffiti the police are investigating as racist. And the reaction of Arron Banks, the multi-millionaire businessman who bankrolled Leave.EU? “What’s a psok cultural centre when it’s at home?” As predicted, the provisional wing of the leave campaign has been wildly emboldened by this victory. I suspect that last week Banks wouldn’t have said that out loud; this week he seems to regard himself as having purchased the right to.

As for Labour, the rolling pageant of departures from Jeremy Corbyn’s shadow cabinet, and the countermoves against them, frequently resembled an episode of Game of Thrones re-enacted by the Teletubbies. To hear some of the jobs that were being resigned from was to discover that they had existed at all. Alex Cunningham is no longer shadow minister for the natural environment. I think Diane Abbott was made shadow Magneto. It was unclear whether the new shadow defence secretary, Clive Lewis, would make defence questions in the Commons on Monday afternoon on account of the fact he was on his way back from Glastonbury. (No one analyses modern political life in the way many normal people would like, so we’ll probably never know what percentage of Labour MPs and financial services experts are firefighting today’s events on a Glasto comedown. But a non-scientific estimate places the number at “more than you’d prefer”.)

The departing shadow leader of the house, Chris Bryant, told the BBC he thought Corbyn might actually have plumped for leave, given he refused to say which way he voted when Bryant asked. Yet on the Labour leader clings, his mulish cabal citing the mandate given by his landslide election in a leadership contest that now feels like it happened about 12 years ago. At this stage in Corbyn’s journey, endless references to The Mandate are beginning to sound creepily reverential. Jeremy Corbyn and The Mandate Family. The Reverend Mandate. I salute Corbyn for being that rare thing: a soft-spoken egomaniac who doesn’t have sex with his own followers. But I concede that there will be those who think he can’t even lead a cult properly in this regard.

Where now? A few weeks ago, Johnson assured us that “sunlit meadows” lay beyond a leave vote. Instead, we are – as everyone keeps saying for want of more specific coordinate – in “uncharted territory”. And yet, you get the feeling that when the cartographers eventually come to mark this place, the word “creek” will be involved.
Looking forward to her article on the Iceland game..
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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by jack white » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:17 am

semisynthetic wrote: (I have asked before just who among you regular communicate with members of your government; at least "The Dr" wrote, though it may have best written differently for certain reasons. When no one answered in the past, I did wonder CAN they write letters or call or meet? But the UK is very different than the government of the USA; contact and "sheer numbers" do change votes in the Congress. I call
or meet or write regularly, certainly at both the State & Federal levels. It does seem to have influence when greater numbers of the constituency makes contact often).
My cousin is my MLA (Member of Assembly, our devolved government). I see her a couple of times a month depending on circumstance. (I didn't vote for her, nor ever could under current conditions - her politics are anathema to me, and vice versa. She is excellent at her job however and I do respect her, and the hard work she puts in. I am proud of her.)
I meet my local councilman nearly every day. I drive past his house or bump into him on the street or in a shop or at his local business. The others are a letter, phone call or short drive away. It's a very small country & everyone is within reach.
semisynthetic wrote:
The people's disdain has returned.
Less government is simply better. The US Government should restrict itself to protecting the people from threats, foreign and domestic, and do the absolute LEAST to invade what we the people, do.


There are increasingly too many "nappers" that get so much for "free" that they drain the system that so many others work hard to provide; but I maintain the only "free" thing we have is our last breath, and then more costly things occur. I have had 3 deaths in the family this year; 5 in the last 5 years; I never asked the "state" or anyone outside the family to help with these expenses, and I believe that is how it should be.


There are those in politics who I believe do try to help the people; and I communicate with them. But sadly, too many feather their own nests with lies and deceit, obfuscation and double-talk. I am very curious (and worried) to see what the future holds.
Can I ask, what about the people who cannot help themselves? You say government should onl protect, but what about providing assistance?

I agree there are many who take advantage of the welfare system and that is something that needs constant monitoring and policing. But do you not feel some compassion and onus for the state and society to help others?

One of the most worrying and saddening aspects of the U.K. under the rule of this Conservative Party government has been their demonisation & smear campaign against disabled people claiming benefits. They can cut benefits & created a narrative that disabled people are like these "nappers" you refer to. The results have been entirely predictable: it's had the opposite effect, creating a rise in depression, illness and a rise in hate crimes against the disabled.
The exact same story is being played out now with immigration and migrants. The symmetry in tactics & how it has played out is further shame and disgrace on people and politicians. This is what I am most angry about. The blatant abuse of power.
For me it's this attitude, of greed and hate, that is what needs reformed first and foremost. Then we can rationally look at the addressing the problems of the welfare system. Ideally we should be able to do both things at the same time, but they have created such a toxic atmosphere full of lies and deception that debate is impossible. Some people have become so entrenched they've abandoned their common decency.
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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by jack white » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:22 am

And yes, despite my anguish at having been on the losing side of another vote, I am actually quite excited. Our politics are in turmoil at the minute, and we're facing Brexit & an American presidential election but it is an exciting time to be alive! I just wish it wasn't happening to me!
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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by spunder » Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:18 pm

jack white wrote: Can I ask, what about the people who cannot help themselves? You say government should onl protect, but what about providing assistance?

I agree there are many who take advantage of the welfare system and that is something that needs constant monitoring and policing. But do you not feel some compassion and onus for the state and society to help others?

One of the most worrying and saddening aspects of the U.K. under the rule of this Conservative Party government has been their demonisation & smear campaign against disabled people claiming benefits. They can cut benefits & created a narrative that disabled people are like these "nappers" you refer to. The results have been entirely predictable: it's had the opposite effect, creating a rise in depression, illness and a rise in hate crimes against the disabled.
The exact same story is being played out now with immigration and migrants. The symmetry in tactics & how it has played out is further shame and disgrace on people and politicians. This is what I am most angry about. The blatant abuse of power.
For me it's this attitude, of greed and hate, that is what needs reformed first and foremost. Then we can rationally look at the addressing the problems of the welfare system. Ideally we should be able to do both things at the same time, but they have created such a toxic atmosphere full of lies and deception that debate is impossible. Some people have become so entrenched they've abandoned their common decency.
absolutely spot on. its a war against the vulnerable and poor no doubt, i work for my local authority and can see this daily yet they have been sufficiently distracted . so instead of mobilising against the government and policy shapers their ire in many cases gets redirected elsewhere to the 'immigrants' and 'brussels' .

did anyone see Farage's performance in EU Parliament yesterday?. particularly odious. Boris looks particularly dejected, as if he is thinking 'shit, what have I done' ... seems awfully concerned with preserving a tight relationship with Europe ... is he actually going to sign Article 50 ?

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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by angelsighs » Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:03 am

I also work for my local authority (in social care commissioning) and it's horrific to see how the welfare state is getting stripped back in the name of 'austerity' (a word which is all spin) while immigrants are used as a scapegoat for all the ills of society. We are increasingly being required to somehow magic something out of nothing in terms of budgets- and if the tories stay in power for the long term, I dread to think how much worse it's going to get.

I don't know why there was a referendum at all to be honest. is the EU perfect? far from it. of course it's got a lot of bureaucracy, it's going to when you get that many nations involved. but we are much better off working within it to improve it and move forward rather than throwing our toys out of the pram. it's given the message to the world that we are arrogant, small minded and insular.

I put a huge amount of blame for all this on the media. for many years the right wing press have been drip feeding both 'bureaucratic brussels' stories and of course the weirdly obsessive screeching lies around immigration.

There is a section on the EU website dedicated to soberly and clearly dismantling myths that have come out of media stories:

http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/eur ... a-z-index/

and here is a group of eminent economists (with no party political agenda as far as I can see) putting forward the very clear case for Remain with facts rather than lies.

https://economistsforremain.org/

but how many hits do these get compared to the Daily Mail website? we need to make our press more accountable for outright lies, but even when complaints are upheld all it gets is a tiny correction on page 20 or whatever. and most of the uneducated populace rarely read past the headlines anyway. The damage is done.

With all this groundwork, the Remain campaign had an uphill struggle to try and put their argument forward. they were a bit limp anyway which didn't help. The facts were twisted, or the facts just didn't get through.
It seems most of the people that voted Leave did it around some vague notion of 'taking back control' or 'sovereignty'. what does that even mean?? taking back control and putting it more into the hands of the tories? as if they are any less bureaucratic or truly care about the general population?
So people voted with their heart or went with 'gut feeling'? so it seems most peoples hearts are xenophobic and small minded then.. I am ashamed.

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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by jack white » Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:55 am

Gove sticking the knife in Boris' back today has brought a smile to my face amidst the gloom.
Probably means that bitch Theresa May will be leader, maybe the most dangerous amongst the lot. Civil liberties and human rights will be the first thing to go..
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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by clewsr » Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:13 am

of course the scary thing is Gove might just win it. And he seems to actually want Brexit, as opposed to Boris who was just opportunistic.

I still sense that this was planned well in advance, - the Tory 'remainers' just don't seem that bothered and are happy to say Brexit means Brexit. If they really wanted to stay you might think they might have some comments about article 50 really needing to be approved by an act of parliament. But no, it is all full steam ahead.

What is going on with Labour is a Shakespearean tragedy. I really feel for Corbyn, I don't know how he is coping, but this is a battle for who controls the labour party and he is right to stay, even though it must be awful. If there must be a Brexit, then I would want a Corbyn shaped Brexit rather than a Gove shaped one. Perhaps why they are getting him out of the way.

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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by jack white » Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:47 am

Gove is desperate to trigger article 50. Was wishful thinking this notion of it being a poisoned chalice, lots of them are keen to pull the trigger.
I think there's a widespread acceptance Brexit is happening, we're not going to see it challenged or reversed. It's not a mindset I can agree with on the "it wouldn't be democratic" to not go through with it -52% of those that voted is not a sizeable enough majority, coupled with the fact it's actually a small minority of the population, coupled with the fact the MP,s & House of Lords oughta display some opposition. However I can see the argument that going against the 52% will just add more fuel to Farage, UKIP & those voters who are disenchanted with the political class.

It's a shitstorm.

Corbyn I've both softened my stance & think he's also not to be trusted. His behaviour & conduct over the course of Brexit was tremendously disheartening, exhibiting the typical mendacity of a career politician. However his economic plan is the only solution I can get on board with. Unfortunately I think his leadership skills are non-existent, he's seemingly incapable of uniting people & really it's preposterous that he hasn't resigned. It's not his fault but also he's not healing divisions. I think Labour might well be dying. History will rightly blame Blair but atm it's the rest of us who are suffering.



Edit: things are moving fast. By time I'd posted this Corbyn's shot himself in both feet by insulting Israel & Boris has withdrawn from he leadership contest. Wow.
Thought Boris always wanted to be PM. Must be hurting the poor chap..
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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by jack white » Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:18 pm

This has been some performance from Gove. As loathesome a creature as he is (& his spouse) I can't but admire the maneuvering he's done. A superb political performance. His done in Cameron & now Boris within a week pretty much. Something Stalin-esque about this ascent, minus a few ice picks..
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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by jack white » Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:09 pm

This has made me laugh:
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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by clewsr » Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:16 pm

jack white wrote:
Corbyn I've both softened my stance & think he's also not to be trusted. His behaviour & conduct over the course of Brexit was tremendously disheartening, exhibiting the typical mendacity of a career politician. However his economic plan is the only solution I can get on board with. Unfortunately I think his leadership skills are non-existent, he's seemingly incapable of uniting people & really it's preposterous that he hasn't resigned. It's not his fault but also he's not healing divisions. I think Labour might well be dying. History will rightly blame Blair but atm it's the rest of us who are suffering.

.
This mantra 'he's not a leader, he's not a leader' I've heard it from so many relatives. Where does it come from? The MP's who never wanted to be led by him in the first place. They've repeated it over and over so many times from day 1 and the media happily reflect and magnify the sentiment and it quickly becomes the orthodox opinion that any sensible person should have.

I've never heard anyone detail the actual qualities he is specifically lacking.

This coup has been planned a long time by mps who just don't agree with him, but they can't say that outright.

He was in a tough place in Europe as he is no fan of Europe for quite different reasons to UKIP and Gove. But he towed the line and supported a nuanced Remain vote to keep his mp's happy. Where did that get him? Complete and utter vengeful suicidal actions from the MP's. He got the same proportion of Labour voters to remain as SNP voters did.

They are desperate for him to go, because he will win again with the membership. That will force the MP's to form a new party. They have already taken legal advice to see if they can keep the 'labour' name. So if he can tough it out we are looking at forced de-selection of labour mps and new candidates put forward competing against the incumbent ex labour mps.

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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by jack white » Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:48 pm

More than the MP's rebellion he hasn't been able to (re)connect the grassroots support across the UK, hasn't been able to arrest the decline of support in the traditional Labour towns as its seeped away to UKIP. He simply has not been able to unite enough of the party behind him, surely that's the crux of any leadership trait. These things & many others were not of his making, but his handling of them has been inadequate to say the least.
He simply does not connect with people. He seemingly hasn't the ability or desire to make himself heard unfortunately.

I thought he was really poor on the referendum. It was no time for backseat driving. He is euro-sceptic but he could have explained this & led the way, instead he seemed to shirk & shrug what will be will be, he certainly wasn't acting in accordance with a lot of his supporters. & his response has been cumbersome since.

I think the MP's have behaved abominably, but I'm not a bit surprised. You're completely right that the coup has been planned, from the get go probably they felt it was an eventuality. To me it looks like they may have now done irreconcilable damage. I really don't see how the party can survive in tact.
I do think it's time for a new party. I do not want the party of those Labour MP's however. Let them keep their "new labour", we'll have something new.

I had hoped his central left politics would have had some impact but this referendum has robbed him of time to implement that. Now this civil war has broke out I feel that possibility has gone. The right are succeeding & there's no immediate opposition. The immediate future is so, so desperately bleak.
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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by semisynthetic » Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:22 pm

="jack white"]
semisynthetic wrote: (I have asked before just who among you regular communicate with members of your government; at least "The Dr" wrote, though it may have best written differently for certain reasons. When no one answered in the past, I did wonder CAN they write letters or call or meet? But the UK is very different than the government of the USA; contact and "sheer numbers" do change votes in the Congress. I call or meet or write regularly, certainly at both the State & Federal levels. It does seem to have influence when greater numbers of the constituency makes contact often).
My cousin is my MLA (Member of Assembly, our devolved government). I see her a couple of times a month depending on circumstance. (I didn't vote for her, nor ever could under current conditions - her politics are anathema to me, and vice versa. She is excellent at her job however and I do respect her, and the hard work she puts in. I am proud of her.)
I meet my local councilman nearly every day. I drive past his house or bump into him on the street or in a shop or at his local business. The others are a letter, phone call or short drive away. It's a very small country & everyone is within reach.
semisynthetic wrote:
The people's disdain has returned.
Less government is simply better. The US Government should restrict itself to protecting the people from threats, foreign and domestic, and do the absolute LEAST to invade what we the people, do.


There are increasingly too many "nappers" that get so much for "free" that they drain the system that so many others work hard to provide; but I maintain the only "free" thing we have is our last breath, and then more costly things occur. I have had 3 deaths in the family this year; 5 in the last 5 years; I never asked the "state" or anyone outside the family to help with these expenses, and I believe that is how it should be.


There are those in politics who I believe do try to help the people; and I communicate with them. But sadly, too many feather their own nests with lies and deceit, obfuscation and double-talk. I am very curious (and worried) to see what the future holds.
Can I ask, what about the people who cannot help themselves? You say government should onl protect, but what about providing assistance?

I agree there are many who take advantage of the welfare system and that is something that needs constant monitoring and policing. But do you not feel some compassion and onus for the state and society to help others?

One of the most worrying and saddening aspects of the U.K. under the rule of this Conservative Party government has been their demonisation & smear campaign against disabled people claiming benefits. They can cut benefits & created a narrative that disabled people are like these "nappers" you refer to. The results have been entirely predictable: it's had the opposite effect, creating a rise in depression, illness and a rise in hate crimes against the disabled.
The exact same story is being played out now with immigration and migrants. The symmetry in tactics & how it has played out is further shame and disgrace on people and politicians. This is what I am most angry about. The blatant abuse of power.
For me it's this attitude, of greed and hate, that is what needs reformed first and foremost. Then we can rationally look at the addressing the problems of the welfare system. Ideally we should be able to do both things at the same time, but they have created such a toxic atmosphere full of lies and deception that debate is impossible. Some people have become so entrenched they've abandoned their common decency.[/quote]

______________________________________
[I agree with you, Jack, and I appreciate hearing the type of access you have to your representatives, and how relatively easy it is. Size of the country or area means little if the government is intransigent and does not share the information you want in a timely manner. This seems to be a pivotal point for anyone who wants to make a difference, or to at least try. I suppose that is one reason I find resorting to the EU rather than influencing your own Parliament to be unnecessary; but I am not there, and cannot possibly know about these, or other problems or types of problems.]

The current administration here in the USA has made it more difficult for age old Charities - the result, more people rely on the government. A guaranteed voter. Too many game the system that should be working; but a sense of what is right and wrong feeds at the trough, and steals from those who really need food, medicine, even an old person who could use someone to talk to; most churches in my area do all of these things to help; even the little church down the way, far from wealthy, do things, make things to sell and give it to charities or to those who are known to be in need. I would never want to see someone hungry and ill, unable to work or who are old, go without. The use of those who are able to work, but prefer to nap all day deserve nothing but a job. Currently that is made difficult by gross mismanagement by those who simply don't care. As long as they gain power by "free" stuff, full steam ahead. A needy voter is an advantage for some; it is sickening.

My admittedly (seemingly) overarching comment, was to point out how the government had grown FAR BEYOND what is outlined in Laws of the USA in the Constitution and the Original Intent. Anyone who knows me would never assume I would let hungry people starve because of any Ideology. There is always a way, within the original Laws and Intent to take care of people. My point was HOW this was very much out of control, and again, part of the "elitists" agenda who benefit from such overreaching and the problems it brings, because to override the US Constitution is the worst sort of "blatant abuse of power" against the USA.
Last edited by semisynthetic on Sat Jul 02, 2016 4:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
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The Dr
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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by The Dr » Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:38 pm

boris: eu is bad! make me your leader!

boris: o ****, i actually like the eu, now i can't be leader. darn

pathetic
“You're not Dostoevsky,' said the citizeness

'Well, who knows, who knows,' he replied.

'Dostoevsky's dead,' said the citizeness, but somehow not very confidently.

'I protest!' Behemoth exclaimed hotly. 'Dostoevsky is immortal!”

jack white
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Re: People of the UK Vote to leave the EU

Post by jack white » Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:22 pm

jack white wrote: To me it looks like they may have now done irreconcilable damage. I really don't see how the party can survive in tact.

... Or not. Record numbers joining Labour atm. :?: :shock:
gonna burn brightly
for a while

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