How the hell is this even possible?

Post by **spzretent** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:46 pm

http://www.nme.com/news/richard-ashcroft/25241

He should change the title to Why Bother?

bunnyben · Post by **bunnyben** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:44 pm

he's got a tour and a single usualy coincides with the tour as it makes more tour revenue... i miss the days when you would only get 2 songs released as singles with 3 NEW songs as b-sides on a single cds as aposed to 5 singles, each with a different remix spanding over 2 cds..and vynal..and digital download..and ring tone...and etc

mojo filters · Post by **mojo filters** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:13 pm

bunnyben wrote:he's got a tour and a single usualy coincides with the tour as it makes more tour revenue... i miss the days when you would only get 2 songs released as singles with 3 NEW songs as b-sides on a single cds as aposed to 5 singles, each with a different remix spanding over 2 cds..and vynal..and digital download..and ring tone...and etc

Thing is if he put 3 new songs on the b side, you'd probably not notice as his music has become so bland IMHO

Starfish · Post by **Starfish** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:30 pm

oh, how could you?
Did you read the comments below the article from fans? How can you say such things when you have devotees like rick13 to tell you where you're going wrong?

...
rick13: I think richard ashcroft is class!!! hes one of the only few musicians left from the real brit pop days when music matterd, him and oasis and thats about it. His latest album was a breath of fresh air for the music industry cos theres nowt there at the moment.Every1 went and got the arctic monkeys album the day it was out, i didnt i got ashcrofts n so should every1.

bunnyben · Post by **bunnyben** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:34 pm

i still like him. some of his lyrics have decended into cliche though, which is upsetting but 'keys to the world' has some great moments. i'd take the 2 of the solo albums, (human conditions and keys...), over storm in heaven or nothern soul anyday though 'alone with everybody' everybody should leave alone.

mojo filters · Post by **mojo filters** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 1:04 am

spzretent wrote:
bunnyben wrote:i still like him. i'd take the 2 of the solo albums, (human conditions and keys...), over storm in heaven or nothern soul anyday.
I know everyone is entitled to their own opinion but this is just...erm...beyond my comprehension.
suffice to say i'm flummoxed.

Have to say Ben, I'm pretty flummoxed too. Although I really like a lot of the songs on Urban Hymns, you could see a distinct blandness developing in the direction of his songwriting with the filler tracks on that album, which seems to have become the staple diet of his solo output, with maybe 1 or 2 exceptions, though even then they sound like more like the ok-ish tracks off Urban Hymns rather than the standouts.

On the other hand the public don't seem to agree since over the last year he's played a sell-out gig at Hall 1 of The Sage and I think 2 sell-outs at the big room in the bingo hall...sorry, Academy

Post by **spzretent** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:55 am

I have Storm In Heaven ranked as one of my top 5 albums ever!

I remember when the first RA solo record came out. I gave up after track 4. And never bothered with anything after that unless I heard it by accident.

He ruined Verve. Just look at Urban Hymns. Some great songs but a lot of RA crap ie: Sonnet, Drugs etc.

The sonic majesty of Storm In Heaven and A Northern Soul not only blow away anything he's released(to be fair they shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath) but 99.9% 0f anyone elses releases.

mojo filters · Post by **mojo filters** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:51 am

spzretent wrote:I have Storm In Heaven ranked as one of my top 5 albums ever!

I remember when the first RA solo record came out. I gave up after track 4. And never bothered with anything after that unless I heard it by accident.

He ruined Verve. Just look at Urban Hymns. Some great songs but a lot of RA crap ie: Sonnet, Drugs etc.

The sonic majesty of Storm In Heaven and A Northern Soul not only blow away anything he's released(to be fair they shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath) but 99.9% 0f anyone elses releases.

On one hand that's a little harsh...but, basically - yeah. Urban Hymns was accessible but also showed something I really dis-liked in the band's direction. However Bittersweet Symphoney was a class song IMO, though I really dislike the idea that it was genuinely Richad Ashcroft's baby, rather than a band-wide work.

Post by **runcible** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:55 am

Chuck in Come On from Urban Hymns as a classic too, but that song is really from A Northern Soul.

I agree with spzretent though. Verve scaled the highest heights, Ashcroft plumbs the lowest depths.

bunnyben · Post by **bunnyben** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 3:56 pm

i think that we're looking at it from a different perspective. i 'prefer' song writers who have the emphasis on lyrics. this means that while i like a song like ocean, i'd rsther listen to a sond like drugs don't work as i prefer 'songs' to less structured music. i take your point, sonically it's less emphatic yet lyrically and melodically it's better.

for example i'd rather listen to amazing grace or ladies... than pure phase or lazer guided... as i prefer the sound and love the strings etc. that's not to say that the lyrics aren't good on the early stuff but i think he went on leaps and bounds with ladies and has progreesed in that manner although a lot of the topics he sings about (well there's not really that many!), are 'recurring' themes from walkin'...to let it rain...

Post by **runcible** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:40 pm

We're into the old lyrics vs music argument which, for me, barely exists. If music is truly awful - Manic Street Preachers, Simply Red etc. - yet the lyrics are incredible (not that these bands write decent words) would you listen? I'd answer 'no'. Lyrics are completely irrelevant to my enjoyment of music. If they are good then that's fine, but as most of what I really enjoy listening to actually has virtually no lyrics (Bardo Pond, much Spacemen 3, The Heads, Bloemfontein, 1929 etc.) or what lyrics there are are largely unintelligible (same bands really) I can't place much emphasis on them. Sure Jason has written some good words, as has Pete, but that is by some distance the least important part of the music. If I found a band whose guitars sounded brilliant but whose lyrics were deeply racist or offensive in some other way I might not choose to listen, but that's a different argument.

Ashcroft's voice sounded great in Verve - without that band (and McCabe's guitar backing him up as it was McCabe who was Verve really) his music is, IMHO, rubbish.

They Transmit · Post by **They Transmit** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:40 pm

I can't quite believe it's even up for discusion, Ashcroft minus the Verve (Nick Mc) is a complete non start, unrelentingly average, Oxford graduates who think they are "with it" dig Ashcroft. Dreadful.
I gotta agree with Runcible music/sounds all the way. Jason best moments for me will always be the full steam ahead sonic assaults.
Funniest Ashcroft moment ever....working at Brixton Academy doing back of house with Ashcroft on, ended up outside later on and overheard two very well spoken individuals enthusing about the gig and comparing it to there other favourites shows....David Gray and Daniel Beddingfield, I rest my case.

bunnyben · Post by **bunnyben** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 7:08 pm

They Transmit wrote:I can't quite believe it's even up for discusion, Ashcroft minus the Verve (Nick Mc) is a complete non start, unrelentingly average, Oxford graduates who think they are "with it" dig
.

ok, social class/educational issues aside, just as happily as i'd listen to a piece of classical music i'd listen to a cd of someone reciting poetry to little or no musical backing. ive got an album by tom russel which is mostly spoken word looking at the 50's ideal of americana (kerouac, jazz etc), and i enjoyed it just as much as i enjoyed listening to the moonlight sonata or the blue danube and a lot more thani enjoyed listening to gutair loops.

shine on you crazy diamond has some of my favorite lyrics but to get to them you have to go through 9+ minutes of rubbish music, imo. but it's the 2 mins of lyrics that make it all worthwhile, same with the end by the doors.

mojo filters · Post by **mojo filters** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:13 am

bunnyben wrote:
They Transmit wrote:I can't quite believe it's even up for discusion, Ashcroft minus the Verve (Nick Mc) is a complete non start, unrelentingly average, Oxford graduates who think they are "with it" dig
.
shine on you crazy diamond has some of my favorite lyrics but to get to them you have to go through 9+ minutes of rubbish music, imo. but it's the 2 mins of lyrics that make it all worthwhile, same with the end by the doors.

Ironically name-wise, I think 'Shine On...' is classic Floyd signature tune, just like 'Shine a Light' is for Spz, they just have the music/lyric split the opposite way round.

I find it hard to comprehend a Floyd fan doesn't appreciate the way they build up to an epic lyrical tribute to the bloke who inspired the band's music to such a degree.

bunnyben · Post by **bunnyben** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:44 am

mojo filters wrote:
bunnyben wrote:
They Transmit wrote:I can't quite believe it's even up for discusion, Ashcroft minus the Verve (Nick Mc) is a complete non start, unrelentingly average, Oxford graduates who think they are "with it" dig
.
shine on you crazy diamond has some of my favorite lyrics but to get to them you have to go through 9+ minutes of rubbish music, imo. but it's the 2 mins of lyrics that make it all worthwhile, same with the end by the doors.
Ironically name-wise, I think 'Shine On...' is classic Floyd signature tune, just like 'Shine a Light' is for Spz, they just have the music/lyric split the opposite way round.

I find it hard to comprehend a Floyd fan doesn't appreciate the way they build up to an epic lyrical tribute to the bloke who inspired the band's music to such a degree.

who said i was a floyd fan

i like a couple of songs, that's all, same with the doors

They Transmit · Post by **They Transmit** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:34 am

Oh dear. Ben, why mention them then?
This is starting to become one of those pointless threads.

Ben likes words more than sounds, others like sounds and don't mind to much about words.

The end.

bunnyben · Post by **bunnyben** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 5:48 pm

They Transmit wrote:Oh dear. Ben, why mention them then?
This is starting to become one of those pointless threads.

Ben likes words more than sounds, others like sounds and don't mind to much about words.

The end.

never mind

that pretty much sums it up as far as i'm concerened

scratch · Post by **scratch** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 9:58 pm

I like both..

IÂ´d rather listen to some nice instrumental jazz and read a good book than suffer through an entire album of Ashcroft post-ANS..

If itÂ´s a raving ashcroft before 1997 - watch me burn books and smash old jazz vinyl!

bunnyben · Post by **bunnyben** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 12:42 am

scratch wrote:I like both..

IÂ´d rather listen to some nice instrumental jazz and read a good book than suffer through an entire album of Ashcroft post-ANS..

If itÂ´s a raving ashcroft before 1997 - watch me burn books and smash old jazz vinyl!

have you ever read any jazz poetry? it's amazing!

Shaun · Post by **Shaun** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:32 pm

bunnyben wrote: shine on you crazy diamond has some of my favorite lyrics but to get to them you have to go through 9+ minutes of rubbish music, imo. but it's the 2 mins of lyrics that make it all worthwhile

At least you said that was in your opinion but i completely disagree with you. What parts don't you like, 1-5 or 6-9 or all of them ?

bunnyben · Post by **bunnyben** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:41 am

The Jig wrote:
bunnyben wrote: shine on you crazy diamond has some of my favorite lyrics but to get to them you have to go through 9+ minutes of rubbish music, imo. but it's the 2 mins of lyrics that make it all worthwhile
At least you said that was in your opinion but i completely disagree with you. What parts don't you like, 1-5 or 6-9 or all of them ?

to be honest i haven't listened to all the parts. only the parts on 'wish you were here' and the pules live album. is there a part you'd recomend?

mojo filters · Post by **mojo filters** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:28 pm

bunnyben wrote:
The Jig wrote:
bunnyben wrote: shine on you crazy diamond has some of my favorite lyrics but to get to them you have to go through 9+ minutes of rubbish music, imo. but it's the 2 mins of lyrics that make it all worthwhile
At least you said that was in your opinion but i completely disagree with you. What parts don't you like, 1-5 or 6-9 or all of them ?
to be honest i haven't listened to all the parts. only the parts on 'wish you were here' and the pules live album. is there a part you'd recomend?

I'd recommend the song as it appears on the album, as well as various live outings including an excellent solo David Gilmour version performed a few years ago at the Meltdown festival, available on DVD.

All parts are included - try reading the tracklistings

Shaun · Post by **Shaun** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:26 pm

bunnyben wrote:to be honest i haven't listened to all the parts. only the parts on 'wish you were here' and the pules live album. is there a part you'd recomend?

Well actually you have listened to all the parts. As mojo filters said, read the tracklistings and you'll understand what i meant about parts 1-5 and 6-9 to save me going through a boring explanation.

Mojo fliters beat me to it regards recommendations, almost. I have a bootleg of WYWH in it's entirety which was recorded in 1977 and that is the best Live version i've heard of that album or that song, so that's what i recommend.

mojo filters · Post by **mojo filters** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:30 pm

The Jig wrote:
bunnyben wrote:to be honest i haven't listened to all the parts. only the parts on 'wish you were here' and the pules live album. is there a part you'd recomend?
Well actually you have listened to all the parts. As mojo filters said, read the tracklistings and you'll understand what i meant about parts 1-5 and 6-9 to save me going through a boring explanation.

Maybe young Ben didn't have to use roman numerals as we did at school, before some clever folks came and gave us the mighty abacus, base 10 and decimal money

Shaun · Post by **Shaun** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:50 pm

mojo filters wrote:
Maybe young Ben didn't have to use roman numerals as we did at school, before some clever folks came and gave us the mighty abacus, base 10 and decimal money

It's just an innocent oversight on his part, if he liked the song more i'm sure he would know more about parts 1-9. I'll try and upload 6-9 from the bootleg i have a bit later and hear Gilmour kick the shit out of the MSG.

mojo filters · Post by **mojo filters** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:01 pm

The Jig wrote:It's just an innocent oversight on his part, if he liked the song more i'm sure he would know more about parts 1-9. I'll try and upload 6-9 from the bootleg i have a bit later and hear Gilmour kick the shit out of the MSG.

The monosodium glutamate? I know they had some mad stage shows back then but never heard of Chinese food playing a part

radioshack · Post by **radioshack** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:08 pm

runcible wrote:Chuck in Come On from Urban Hymns as a classic too, but that song is really from A Northern Soul.

I agree with spzretent though. Verve scaled the highest heights, Ashcroft plumbs the lowest depths.

Ashcroft recently said in Q that if he were to do it all again, he would have left Come On off Urban Hymns and put some of his other songs on there (C'mon People, Brave New World etc...). Dumbass.

He also said that Urban Hymns should have been his first solo album, which is bullshit. The reason Urban Hymns works is that it strikes a good balance between 'traditional' songs and band jams. Listen to Alone with Everybody, released just 3 years after UH, and you realise how important the band were behind him. Ashcroft can write songs now and then, but he cannot arrange music at all, and that's why his music is dull. If he released EPs rather than albums, maybe his stuff would have been more well received.

Another chap I spoke to recently suggested that Ashcroft received singing lessons between UH and AWE. And I'd have to agree with that. Listen to Sonnet, then listen to You On My Mind In My Sleep. Actually, don't listen to that last one, it sucks.

bunnyben · Post by **bunnyben** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:42 pm

The Jig wrote:
mojo filters wrote:
Maybe young Ben didn't have to use roman numerals as we did at school, before some clever folks came and gave us the mighty abacus, base 10 and decimal money

It's just an innocent oversight on his part, if he liked the song more i'm sure he would know more about parts 1-9. I'll try and upload 6-9 from the bootleg i have a bit later and hear Gilmour kick the shit out of the MSG.

i hardly read the booklets etc. i don't really look at the song names anymore. i just stick on the cd and if it clicks with me i'll try to find out more about, in my case, the songwriter by reading their bio's eg dylan, hank williams etc. as for roman numerals, i learnt all i need to know to understand the star wars film titles

(joking)

Stuart X.Hunter · Post by **Stuart X.Hunter** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:13 am

Sometimes I too contemplate Aschcroft, his work and the pro's and con's of group v solo;

Lollapalooza summer of '94.
Recordings for ANS 'four months' in '95.

I'm amazed that they (the Verve) even managed to output a third album.
It kind had to slow down really.

I believe that DDW was concieved during the recording for ANS.

As for the quote that McCabe was the Verve you can go and stick that on top of the stinking pile of shite throwaway statements located here

http://www.nme.com.

I like Ashcrofts solo work. I even own some of it.

I understand that some people clearly don't and possibly even feel 'cheated' by it.

Tuff shit. The two are seperate.

How naive we are to understand that things actually change.

There are IMVVVHO similarities that can be seen between Spiritualized/Jason Pierce and the Verve/Richard Ashcroft outputs.

angelsighs · Post by **angelsighs** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:50 pm

eleKtroniK:musiK wrote:
I like Ashcrofts solo work. I even own some of it...

There are IMVVVHO similarities that can be seen between Spiritualized/Jason Pierce and the Verve/Richard Ashcroft outputs.

i like some of Ashcrofts solo work too.. About half of Alone With Everybody does the job when i'm in a orchestral ballad mood. But most of it is very disappointing to say the least.

I remember someone on here saying (may have been $26) that it would of been silly and pointless for him to try and emulate the trippy McCabe sound, so he headed down the ballad road, a road he was already heading towards anyway. Which is fair enough.

Funnily enough i was thinking about the comparisons between Spz/Verve the other day.. think about it-

ASIH/LGM- Trippy, ambient debut with a couple of poppy tunes hidden within

ANS/PP- Similar to first album, but gets harder/darker/more minimalist

UH/LAGWAFIS- Commercial triumph which gives a nod to something close to trad-rock, but also peppered with more out there/formless stuff like the early days.

AWE/LICD- Encouraged by commerical success, takes the most conventional moments from the last album, and builds them up into huge string driven epics. (But with one rocky number to show they don't JUST do ballads)

Here though the similarities fall apart..

You could also apply this model to Mercury Rev/Flaming Lips perhaps?

drones · Post by **drones** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:56 pm

spzretent wrote:
eleKtroniK:musiK wrote:
I understand that some people clearly don't and possibly even feel 'cheated' by it.

Tuff shit. The two are seperate.

How naive we are to understand that things actually change.
.
The problem here is many think not only did things change for the worse(understatement) but that is the way RA was steering Verve and one of the reasons of the acrimony between RA and Nick McCabe which ultimately led to McCabe leaving. UH being the prime example.

I'll speak on behalf of 'leckie musique' for a bit, before I bugger awf.
McCabe left after ANS for whatever reasons...be it loggerheads over musical direction or his desire to do something else or his oft-referred to illness/gift or perhaps a combination of all those...who knows...only him, really.
Granted McCabe gave them the edge creatively...like Henry @ Arsenal or Ronaldinho @ Barca or McKay @ Watford (mon the Scots!). However remove him/them from the line-up and you still have something formidable.
Sometimes change aint good...sometimes it's difficult (that can be a good thing) and sometimes it's easy (which in-turn, can be a bad thing).
I doubt Ashcroft was ever steering the Verve in a certain direction; he writes songs and sings songs and whilst it is clear he is both his own best and worst PR agent, I doubt he has much time to contemplate, far less formulate a plan and then act upon it in order to ensure The Verve (and it was them all, not just Dicky) success on a grande scale.
Chance and fortune has more to do with a success story.
If you believe his mantra was 'McCabe out - success in', 'McCabe out - success in', 'McCabe out - success in' then...well...I know you would never think that.

Anyway, McCabe left and is apparently doing wonderful things producing etc and his own band...I wish him peace, happiness and unity.

Ashcroft continues to make music, continues to be apparent and...and nothing, so be it.

Begs (and i believe there might have been some grovelling involved) the question why McCabe returned to the party a la Urban Hymns.

It was never going to last, 2 lads of the cosmos...when the cosmos collide...

bunnyben · Post by **bunnyben** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:09 pm

eleKtroniK:musiK wrote:

I like Ashcrofts solo work. I even own some of it.

I understand that some people clearly don't and possibly even feel 'cheated' by it.

There are IMVVVHO similarities that can be seen between Spiritualized/Jason Pierce and the Verve/Richard Ashcroft outputs.

firstly- how is it possible to feel cheated? if you want a certain product then do it yourself.

secondly- when trying to explain spiritualized to freinds who don't know them i often use ashcroft's 'human conditions' album as a starting point.

Stuart X.Hunter · Post by **Stuart X.Hunter** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:43 pm

bunnyben wrote:
eleKtroniK:musiK wrote:

I like Ashcrofts solo work. I even own some of it.

I understand that some people clearly don't and possibly even feel 'cheated' by it.

There are IMVVVHO similarities that can be seen between Spiritualized/Jason Pierce and the Verve/Richard Ashcroft outputs.
firstly- how is it possible to feel cheated? if you want a certain product then do it yourself.

secondly- when trying to explain spiritualized to freinds who don't know them i often use ashcroft's 'human conditions' album as a starting point.

Fistly - Some people feel cheated because it aint there precious Verve, maaaan.
In fact a fellow on 'ere by the name of 'is' even blamed The Verve for ruining music...i believe he may feel cheated.

Suck-then-lay - Why choose 'Human Conditions as a starting point? I'm curious(feel free to insert the innuendo)...how does that go?

When describing Pure Phase to my closest friends (who I've never met) who in turn know nothing about Spiritualized I say the following;
Imagine the sound (if indeed there was and there may well be a sound) that surrounds the filament of a lightbulb, the moment it glows.
They've never heard it, I've never heard it but to me thats what Pure Phase is; definitive, stands alone in time/in space, waiting, always there, ready, poised and keen to do battle, succeed and slip away.

C'mon, hows that jazz poetry, benderben.

SpaceLine · Post by **SpaceLine** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:05 pm

bunnyben wrote:
eleKtroniK:musiK wrote:

I like Ashcrofts solo work. I even own some of it.

I understand that some people clearly don't and possibly even feel 'cheated' by it.

There are IMVVVHO similarities that can be seen between Spiritualized/Jason Pierce and the Verve/Richard Ashcroft outputs.
firstly- how is it possible to feel cheated? if you want a certain product then do it yourself.

secondly- when trying to explain spiritualized to freinds who don't know them i often use ashcroft's 'human conditions' album as a starting point.

human conditions is one of the worst albums in the history of albums. i was let down with AWE but hopeful for his second solo record. it was so bad i will never play that shit again. lord i've been trying was a great demo and he massacred that sucker on human conditions. that song at the end with brian wilson is monotonous torture and science of silence has the worst lyrics i've ever heard. i fucking hate that record. goddammit i am still pissed at richard for that steaming pile of shit. what the hell is a cosmic library anyway? giant ego and sunglasses is all that guy has left.

drones · Post by **drones** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:25 pm

SpaceLine wrote:
bunnyben wrote:
eleKtroniK:musiK wrote:

I like Ashcrofts solo work. I even own some of it.

I understand that some people clearly don't and possibly even feel 'cheated' by it.

There are IMVVVHO similarities that can be seen between Spiritualized/Jason Pierce and the Verve/Richard Ashcroft outputs.
firstly- how is it possible to feel cheated? if you want a certain product then do it yourself.

secondly- when trying to explain spiritualized to freinds who don't know them i often use ashcroft's 'human conditions' album as a starting point.
human conditions is one of the worst albums in the history of albums. i was let down with AWE but hopeful for his second solo record. it was so bad i will never play that shit again. lord i've been trying was a great demo and he massacred that sucker on human conditions. that song at the end with brian wilson is monotonous torture and science of silence has the worst lyrics i've ever heard. i fucking hate that record. goddammit i am still pissed at richard for that steaming pile of shit. what the hell is a cosmic library anyway? giant ego and sunglasses is all that guy has left.

Woah...lets not round on bunnyben...we all know where gang-mentality gets us and if you need it spelled (or speak n spelled) out then...

I find Ashcrofts lyrics far more positive these days than in the past and I believe that is a good thing. Perhaps he tries/believes himself to be a bit more worldly wise than he actually is but he is making a conscious effort to be aware and make others aware...sometimes through quite intricate lyrics. Visually the images I gain from listening to Ashcroft' solo lyrics as opposed to The Verve lyrics are quite contrasting.

Perhaps that is just due to where I find myself at the moment.

SpaceLine · Post by **SpaceLine** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:29 pm

i'm not rounding on anyone. i don't even know what you mean by that. i am not in any gang either. my post had nothing to do with any poster here and everything to do with that awful piece of crap human conditions.

We are on a rock, spinning silently
But I'm safe when you're here with me
These questions I'm asking, they've been haunting me
I need some security, can't you see?
Her love was like a fountain rushing and pouring down
The darkness is putting out the light in me
She's a well to be dug, she's a university
A cosmic library - wait and see

gimme a fucking break

bunnyben · Post by **bunnyben** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:50 pm

We are on a rock, spinning silently (that's true, maybe a bit abstract for you?)

But I'm safe when you're here with me (i love that concept)

These questions I'm asking, they've been haunting me (a lot on his mind)

I need some security, can't you see? (yes, don't we all)

Her love was like a fountain rushing and pouring down (nice visual image)

The darkness is putting out the light in me (how is that better or worse than saying there's a fire in my soul that burns less bright when x is not around?)

She's a well to be dug, she's a university (she has depths to be explored)

A cosmic library - wait and see (she contains the answers to the universe)

gimme a fucking break (would you like a kit kat?)

bunnyben · Post by **bunnyben** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:54 pm

eleKtroniK:musiK wrote:[
Suck-then-lay - Why choose 'Human Conditions as a starting point? I'm curious(feel free to insert the innuendo)...how does that go?

When describing Pure Phase to my closest friends (who I've never met) who in turn know nothing about Spiritualized I say the following;
Imagine the sound (if indeed there was and there may well be a sound) that surrounds the filament of a lightbulb, the moment it glows.
They've never heard it, I've never heard it but to me thats what Pure Phase is; definitive, stands alone in time/in space, waiting, always there, ready, poised and keen to do battle, succeed and slip away.

C'mon, hows that jazz poetry, benderben.

although from your comments i know that you are not adressing me i feel like answering anyway.

the sounds on human conditions- the smoothness, strings and vide are very similar to lagwafis, licd. if you don't hear it the same then that's cool, but if you do hear it the same yet are too 'cool' to admit liking richard ashcroft then that's cool... live and let live

bunnyben · Post by **bunnyben** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:55 pm

drones wrote:

Woah...lets not round on bunnyben...we all know where gang-mentality gets us and if you need it spelled (or speak n spelled) out then...

I find Ashcrofts lyrics far more positive these days than in the past and I believe that is a good thing. Perhaps he tries/believes himself to be a bit more worldly wise than he actually is but he is making a conscious effort to be aware and make others aware...sometimes through quite intricate lyrics. Visually the images I gain from listening to Ashcroft' solo lyrics as opposed to The Verve lyrics are quite contrasting.

Perhaps that is just due to where I find myself at the moment.

thanks for the support

let us start our own gang!

drones · Post by **drones** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:02 pm

SpaceLine wrote:i'm not rounding on anyone. i don't even know what you mean by that. i am not in any gang either. my post had nothing to do with any poster here and everything to do with that awful piece of crap human conditions.

We are on a rock, spinning silently
But I'm safe when you're here with me
These questions I'm asking, they've been haunting me
I need some security, can't you see?
Her love was like a fountain rushing and pouring down
The darkness is putting out the light in me
She's a well to be dug, she's a university
A cosmic library - wait and see

gimme a fucking break

FFS...you have just bust the 500 post marque and you reek man, reek of paranoia.

Consider how difficult it is to actually craft a moment, a feeling...to capture it someway/somehow. Can you paint your love, can you sing your decay. You could probably do more with decay as it's been done to death (no pun intended).

Allow me to elaborate on how i interpret the above lyrics;

We are on a rock, spinning silently
*is this the earth (bit obvious) or is it a large rock, surrounded on three sides by water, sun setting in the distance, peace in your soul, entwined in your lovers arms when you only see your lives moving whilst all else is still/not needed/noticed.

But I'm safe when you're here with me
*the world is evil and i'm needy (whingy) or is this that you want for nothing when your lover is by your side

These questions I'm asking, they've been haunting me
*the real big questions (kosmiche) or questions about is this it, have i found what i can call home, is this for life, lets not let it be fleating, lets not let it be careless

I need some security, can't you see?
*what like a toddlers blanket (weak) or does he need to hear his lover say and answer the questions above

Her love was like a fountain rushing and pouring down
*sickly sweet (pass the bucket) or an explosion of realisation that his love is returned and in excess of what he imagined

The darkness is putting out the light in me
*granted this doesn't fit!!!

She's a well to be dug, she's a university
*she's to be toiled for and learned from

A cosmic library - wait and see
*full of wonders no other hath disco'erd

I got bored near the end, you think it's bollocks, I think it has some merit

whatever

SpaceLine · Post by **SpaceLine** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:05 pm

being cool has absolutely nothing to do with any of my comments. i find richard ashcroft's solo music to be horrible. there is no need to attack me, i never said one word about you. there is also no need to attempt to explain any lyrics in a humorous manner. i never asked for an explanation.

richard ashcroft's solo music is terrible. that's all.

angelsighs · Post by **angelsighs** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:15 pm

The reason people feel 'cheated' by Richard Ashcroft (rightly or wrongly) is

a) The nature of The Verve (emotional music, intense and hard slog to the top) meant that they attracted intense feelings from fans. This makes the disappointment of his solo stuff correspondingly intense.

b) He still talks it like he does when he was in The Verve, but this just makes him sound deluded rather than inspiring

Science of Silence is not great lyrically, but I think its one of his better solo efforts- its got a lovely melody and the lyrics are no worse than any old soul or funk song.

drones · Post by **drones** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:16 pm

bunnyben wrote:
drones wrote:

Woah...lets not round on bunnyben...we all know where gang-mentality gets us and if you need it spelled (or speak n spelled) out then...

I find Ashcrofts lyrics far more positive these days than in the past and I believe that is a good thing. Perhaps he tries/believes himself to be a bit more worldly wise than he actually is but he is making a conscious effort to be aware and make others aware...sometimes through quite intricate lyrics. Visually the images I gain from listening to Ashcroft' solo lyrics as opposed to The Verve lyrics are quite contrasting.

Perhaps that is just due to where I find myself at the moment.
thanks for the support let us start our own gang!

I am my own Street Team

bunnyben · Post by **bunnyben** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:17 pm

SpaceLine wrote:being cool has absolutely nothing to do with any of my comments. i find richard ashcroft's solo music to be horrible. there is no need to attack me, i never said one word about you. there is also no need to attempt to explain any lyrics in a humorous manner. i never asked for an explanation.

richard ashcroft's solo music is terrible. that's all.

i haven't attacked you. i wasn't attempting humour. if you don't like it i dig. s'all good man.

Stuart X.Hunter · Post by **Stuart X.Hunter** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:10 am

angelsighs wrote:The reason people feel 'cheated' by Richard Ashcroft (rightly or wrongly) is

a) The nature of The Verve (emotional music, intense and hard slog to the top) meant that they attracted intense feelings from fans. This makes the disappointment of his solo stuff correspondingly intense.

I grasp your concept but i feel it is being derogatory to a lot of The Verve fans. Take NSYNC par example; even teenage screaming girls have opened their minds (and there _______! ) and allowed Justin Timberlake solo stuff in!!! I still believe it goes back to timing...perhaps Dicky (solo) came too soon or too late. What would happen if you removed Simon Jones and Nick McCabe from Verve back in '93?
I mean you wanna give the guy a Novello award for A Man Called Sun or The Sun, The Sea. I believe the guy should be given some credit for maturing and not being afraid to take a chance and for believing in himself.

b) He still talks it like he does when he was in The Verve, but this just makes him sound deluded rather than inspiring

Rightly or wrongly...at least he is consistent and that comes from an undefeatable belief that what he believes in matters. People still interview him, people still buy the stories written about him...would you rather have a charlatan?

Science of Silence is not great lyrically, but I think its one of his better solo efforts- its got a lovely melody and the lyrics are no worse than any old soul or funk song.

Y'know if it was a toss up between Pierce and Ashcroft as to whom I could have a natter with...there would be no contest.
The only question I have for Pierce (which I believe to be a subtle one...if it is thought of out-with the box) is how do you feel about being part of the greatest rock n roll swindle ever?

natty · Post by **natty** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:28 am

They Transmit wrote:.
Funniest Ashcroft moment ever....working at Brixton Academy doing back of house with Ashcroft on, ended up outside later on and overheard two very well spoken individuals enthusing about the gig and comparing it to there other favourites shows....David Gray and Daniel Beddingfield, I rest my case.

HAHAHHAHAHAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAAA!!!
I nearly just fell off my chair. Says it all.

angelsighs · Post by **angelsighs** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:28 pm

eleKtroniK:musiK wrote:[
Rightly or wrongly...at least he is consistent and that comes from an undefeatable belief that what he believes in matters. People still interview him, people still buy the stories written about him...would you rather have a charlatan?
?

Fair point- i'm certain Ashcroft has a sincere belief in his material, but I just don't on the whole share that belief. My problem I guess, not his.

clewsr · Post by **clewsr** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 1:37 pm

angelsighs wrote:
eleKtroniK:musiK wrote:[
Rightly or wrongly...at least he is consistent and that comes from an undefeatable belief that what he believes in matters. People still interview him, people still buy the stories written about him...would you rather have a charlatan?
?
Fair point- i'm certain Ashcroft has a sincere belief in his material, but I just don't on the whole share that belief. My problem I guess, not his.

heh. Likewise Tony Blair had a sincere belief that waging war in Iraq was a good idea, despite most of the country thinking it stupid and reckless. His problem, and unfortunately ours.
Sincere belief counts for nothing, its the results of your actions that count, and they are two people who have both produced stinking piles of crap, albeit very different piles.

andyblacktoo · Post by **andyblacktoo** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 1:51 pm

i've never really liked the verve. well i didnt mind slide away from a storm in heaven, and to an extent lucky man from history. but otherwise they leave me stone cold.

ironically, i though song for lovers has been the best thing ashcroft has touched. everything else has been bland rubbish. the best thing about bitter sweet symphony is the string hook, which of course he didnt write.

Stuart X.Hunter · Post by **Stuart X.Hunter** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:50 pm

clewsr wrote: heh. Likewise Tony Blair had a sincere belief that waging war in Iraq was a good idea, despite most of the country thinking it stupid and reckless. His problem, and unfortunately ours.
Sincere belief counts for nothing, its the results of your actions that count, and they are two people who have both produced stinking piles of crap, albeit very different piles.

well done clewless.
a shining example of shite.

Have you been fermenting that one in your bowels for a while; carefully and assuredly tittivating and perfecting, whilst stealthily waiting and watching for the consummate moment to deliver said turd?

congratulations.

Blair i believe was/is motivated by George and his threat of a good reaming with a lube smothered, latex black bullyboy. heh, now that your alimentary canal is free of obstructions perhaps you'd like to play host too said bullyboy.
Sorry, what i meant to say was oil is traded in dollars. Imagine the preposterous idea that someone may actually wish to challenge that tacit precedent.

Perhaps I should have continued at the end of the sentence;
Rightly or wrongly...at least he is consistent and that comes from an undefeatable belief that what he believes in matters.............to him

I'm still struggling on your 'sincere belief counts for nothing, it's the results of your actions that count'. I assume the guy (RA) is not doing his best for you (and for mankind in your opinion)...aww diddums.

I think if however i was to take your words in context they would read;
"heh. Likewise...blah, blah, blah...,albeit very different...blah."

Are you sure?

clewsr · Post by **clewsr** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:14 pm

thanks for your positive and gripping contributions, please come again.

Stuart X.Hunter · Post by **Stuart X.Hunter** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:27 pm

Kettle, (the), Pot, (the), Calling, Black

mojo filters · Post by **mojo filters** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:33 pm

eleKtroniK:musiK wrote:Kettle, (the), Pot, (the), Calling, Black

I invite you to vote for Tony Blair in Sedgefield at the next general election, when his name is mysteriously missing from the ballot paper...but I guess that might skip your apparently ill-informed attention

Stuart X.Hunter · Post by **Stuart X.Hunter** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:01 pm

mojo filters wrote:
eleKtroniK:musiK wrote:Kettle, (the), Pot, (the), Calling, Black
I invite you to vote for Tony Blair in Sedgefield at the next general election, when his name is mysteriously missing from the ballot paper...but I guess that might skip your apparently ill-informed attention

...two tics...

hi, sorry...just had to finish that article on Jordan.

she reeeeaaaallly makes Heat such an interesting read!

*beep-beep, beep-beep

...wee minute...

sorry, what was it you were saying? uh-huh...

*beep-beep, beep-beep

...really sorry...

right...where were we...something about ballet?...

*beep-beep, beep-beep

...Look, i'm sooooooo sorry that was my pal jus texin to say I won't believe whats happenin on Big Brovva...I've got to go...

bunnyben · Post by **bunnyben** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:15 pm

clewsr wrote:
heh. Likewise Tony Blair had a sincere belief that waging war in Iraq was a good idea, despite most of the country thinking it stupid and reckless. His problem, and unfortunately ours.
Sincere belief counts for nothing, its the results of your actions that count, and they are two people who have both produced stinking piles of crap, albeit very different piles.

i'd rather someone told me they beleived that nsync are the greatest band in history as opposed to being told that people have to die.

mojo filters · Post by **mojo filters** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 6:28 pm

eleKtroniK:musiK wrote:
mojo filters wrote:
eleKtroniK:musiK wrote:Kettle, (the), Pot, (the), Calling, Black
I invite you to vote for Tony Blair in Sedgefield at the next general election, when his name is mysteriously missing from the ballot paper...but I guess that might skip your apparently ill-informed attention
...two tics...

hi, sorry...just had to finish that article on Jordan.

she reeeeaaaallly makes Heat such an interesting read!

*beep-beep, beep-beep

...wee minute...

sorry, what was it you were saying? uh-huh...

*beep-beep, beep-beep

...really sorry...

right...where were we...something about ballet?...

*beep-beep, beep-beep

...Look, i'm sooooooo sorry that was my pal jus texin to say I won't believe whats happenin on Big Brovva...I've got to go...

I take it you're a pro journo given your writing style

Apologies if English isn't your first language...all is forgiven.

Post by **BzaInSpace** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:32 pm

Steering this one back on-topic - I believe Richard Ascroft is the greatest solo artiste and singer ...ever! [Forget Marvin]
The fella from Coldplay wrote it on his own hand so it must be true.

Spiritualized are mere amateurs compared with Team Ashcroft.

Amateurs.

Or somethinggzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

mojo filters · Post by **mojo filters** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:54 pm

BzaInSpace wrote:

Man, what happened???

Steering this one back on-topic - I believe Richard Ascroft is the greatest solo artiste and singer ...ever! [Forget Marvin]
The fella from Coldplay wrote it on his own hand so it must be true.

Spiritualized are mere amateurs compared with Team Ashcroft.

Amateurs.

Or somethinggzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Tell us again Baz the best way to kill an otter?

...I've nothing more constructive to comment on, sorry!

Stuart X.Hunter · Post by **Stuart X.Hunter** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:16 pm

Firstly allow me to take this opportunity to apologise to anyone who found any of my previous posts in this thread offensive.

It is out-of-character for myself to display such vehment and forthright opinions on any subject and (when reading the entire thread back) on a subject that was tactically started as a means to an end for someone to express there opinion in a covert, sneaky and self-gratifying manner.

Just so as he/she doesn't miss the point...moderators could be applying themselves to more 'pressing matters' during the little available time they have on the messageboard.

I see that another thread in a similar vein has been started, fortunately the bait hasn't been taken.

Anyway...lets talk more about me!

Apologies to Spaceline - who was only expressing his opinion in his way. You are correct in the fact that my interpretation of a song cannot be yours and therefore I should not have expounded to you my experience in a derogatory fashion.
Apologies to Clewsr - who was only using a similar example of his idea of 'belief and action' as I was regarding the 'solo works of RA and JT'. He/She felt compelled to compare/contrast the solo works/actions of RA with that of our current Prime Minister' support* of war in Iraq. I should not have taken the 'bull by the horns'.
*loose term
Apologies/Explanations to bunnyben - I was (as you put it) not referring directly to you in my posting; more referring to you as the image I concocted of you, for a split second, after reading a few of your posts in which you display a love/like of poetry/jazz and have a very au fait way of handling yourself. I aplaud your posts btw for bringing a diverse blend of tastes to the messageboard and for having conviction in doing so.

If anyone has been omitted from this list. Just for you...I'm sorry.

I had hoped initially to find a balanced opinion (my own opinion) for the merits of Ashcroft with/without The Verve. I was unable to do so. This is down to my own failings. i.e. I was unable to convey a positive opinion of RA solo work.

I have since thought about continuing this thread with other comments i.e. the actual length of the 'string hook' borrowed from ALO/MJ/KR work or the 'adaptation' from the Staples Singers version of 'This may be the Last Time' etc, etc. However this was a thread started with the purpose of discussion/mockery of the solo works of RA. Therefore I will and have refrained.

I was just saying the otter day to a mate on here; aint it funny the topics that 'go' on here are the ones that really shouldn't. I'm part of that destructive machine now.

Finally

Dear BZA & mojo filters i'm sorry I made you both feel compelled to write/submit your post. It is out of character for you both to post in such a lacklustre allbeit well-researched (in BZA case) fashion.
I found the 'Amateurs' part could have done with a few more 'Amateurs', you know what i mean...and possibly a few more zzzzZZZZ's in the 'or something' section.
And no, i'm absolutely not a pro-journo...oh that was rhetorical! I just take on information, shuffle it about and regurgitate it...

Well, I feel better now that I've got that off my chest. I hope we can be friends or at the very least pleasant aquaintances once more.

Anyway, please take this in the context that it is meant and that is one of sorrow on my part for sinking to a new veritable low.

bunnyben · Post by **bunnyben** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:59 pm

Post by **spzretent** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:00 pm

eleKtroniK:musiK wrote: on a subject that was tactically started as a means to an end for someone to express there opinion in a covert, sneaky and self-gratifying manner.
...moderators could be applying themselves to more 'pressing matters' during the little available time they have on the messageboard.

If I were the paranoid sort i'd think this sounds very familiar with the work of a well known multiple personality poster. Just a hunch.

Anyway, taking this at face value:

All of us moderators started out as message board members. After some consideration they, Spz HQ, approached 3 of us to see if we wanted to moderate.
Nowhere was it mentioned that once accepting said moderator position we gave up the right to have an opinion or furthermore, express said opinion on the message board.
So when I start a thread about my disdain for Richard Ashcroft's solo output, albeit with a tinge of sarcasm, I feel I have every right to express it. Verve are certainly a flashpoint on this message board. People feel very strongly about them and their all too short career.

Now back to the more pressing matters of deleting porn spam. Time to hunker down.

jadams501 · Post by **jadams501** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:20 pm

I think you all are entirely too harsh on Ashcroft's solo career, though I agree it has been enormously disappointing. Ashcroft is a better singer now than he ever was in The Verve, and I think that on his own he's capable of his own sort of psychedelic firepower just with his voice, lyrics, persona, and acoustic guitar. Did anyone here hear the bootleg of his acoustic set at the Paradiso last year? "Music Is Power" and "Keys To The World" were both utterly reinvented and, in my view, revealed themselves to stand alongside anything in the Vervecroft canon.

I'm also a big fan of "Science of Silence" (one of his best songs ever imho), the potential of "Words Just Get In The Way," and a lot of other material that he's done on his own. I think that "Sonnet," "Lucky Man," "The Drugs Don't Work" and several others are great, great songs that weren't quite recorded right in the studio, but a sign of what Ashcroft can produce on his own and then fully realize with the help of good musicians.

He's still got all the (immense) talent, but his ego is too big for him to work musicians or producers who are anywhere near as capable as he is, and as a result his solo stuff has been poorly produced and often has left great songs a little bit of development short of really taking off. On Keys To The World especially almost every song had a million dollar hook or bridge or something, but they were rarely integrated into an airtight whole. Ashcroft's problems with realizing his music, I think, are one of the greatest tragedies in recent musical history.

I'm still holding out a bit of hope that, now that he's fired his shitty producer Chris Potter and seems to have run into some troubles in his personal life, we may yet see him start moving in the right direction.

SpaceLine · Post by **SpaceLine** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:24 pm

sure, it's the fault of the producers and the other musicians. he is the "bigtime" solo star, he has final say. fact is, he writes bland ballads with cheesy lyrics. if he was never in verve this wouldn't even be a discussion. he makes coldplay look hard...

bunnyben · Post by **bunnyben** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:48 pm

jadams501 wrote:Iseems to have run into some troubles in his personal life, we may yet see him start moving in the right direction.

it's sad but i agree, tragedy really adds an extra amount of omph

Stuart X.Hunter · Post by **Stuart X.Hunter** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:05 pm

spzretent wrote:I have Storm In Heaven ranked as one of my top 5 albums ever!

I remember when the first RA solo record came out. I gave up after track 4. And never bothered with anything after that unless I heard it by accident.

He ruined Verve. Just look at Urban Hymns. Some great songs but a lot of RA crap ie: Sonnet, Drugs etc.

The sonic majesty of Storm In Heaven and A Northern Soul not only blow away anything he's released(to be fair they shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath) but 99.9% 0f anyone elses releases.

Just dived back in here...been thinking about the Verve

So, the sonic majesty of ASIH and ANS...are you referring then to the sound and not the lyrics?

Lyrically RA is still saying a lot of the same things I guess...still searchin' for answers to guilt, regrets, happiness, better days aint that what we all do. The search to make ourselves and others better, more complete?
Unfortunately for him but fortunately for all of us...he chose to (partially) live his search out through the medium of music.

Tell me that none of you have felt so lost that you return to the place you started or the place things were last right...to gain a better understanding of why things went wrong. It's not wrong to dream of that place of that time and that given half the chance you could make it even better.
To me thats what Drugs don't Work is about.

Similar sceanrio with Sonnet...unfortunately blood is thicker than water but it shouldn't be and have you never been so frantic that the signs were all there but you never heeded them and again dreaming about how you could change all that if you had one second too do it.

as ben said...look at Keys to the World the track...cutting a path to someone in real trouble...a spiral that maybe he can save that person from...to me that song is epic...the groove is like a fuckin chariot bursting over the horizon...locked on...destined...with the person who needs help slipping away and hanging on to reach out. You know what this world is a seriously self-destructive place and as people we are self-destructive thats why we need to keep searching...keep learning.

Anyway, as usual I know there's a load of idio(syncracity) involved in this post...but fuck it.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Ibk0aubYswo

'93 Glastonbury make it to monday/interview/gravity grave

spzretent wrote: So when I start a thread about my disdain for Richard Ashcroft's solo output, albeit with a tinge of sarcasm, I feel I have every right to express it.

Well congrats your link and "Why Bother" were an excellent expression of your feelings.
Do you have a woman, spzretent? Talk us through the scene when you are engaged in intimacy...
Do you feel the following "Penis...Vagina...Hip Thrust...Relax"?

...Imagine the future...woke up with a scream...I was buying some feelings...from a vending machine

Stuart X.Hunter · Post by **Stuart X.Hunter** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:40 pm

mojo filters wrote:
...I've nothing more constructive to comment on, sorry!

Ok, but that was by-the-by after page 1.

What are you hoping for in the new Spiritualized album mojo?

My heart is anticipating some sort of revenge album.
Tune that are epic, angry and definitive in the way that Come Together could've been had it not fell foul to the usual self-destructive malaise, than actually hitting out at the person(s) responsible for the harm.

I'd rather little Johnny was a gun-toting psychopath hell-bent on retribution than a willowy self-harmer to week to stand up to his convictions. Y'know reaction in a positive way rather in a way that uses guilt as a method.

That plus orchestration like LAGWAFIS, energy and raucous guitars like PP and bliss like LGM. No more stuff about needing God's help, no more stuff about needles and powder and pills and curing my ills; lets hear about being at the top, with your woman and kids and keeping it safe. And how if anything gets at it...you'll be on-course...far better to have loved and held and written the pasts wrongs than to have loved and lost and be feeling the costs.

I dunno...something direct....like a 4-2-4 formation with attacking full-backs