Anne Frank alive in Gaza

[Hedspace]

Their is a Warsaw Ghetto Uprising going on right now
This is a Rotterdam terrorized from shock and awe to induce fear and obedience
This is Pearl Harbor, Alamo, Wounded Knee, and the Amritsar Massacre all rolled up into one
This is Leningrad and i pray that it will morph into a Stalingrad, but not a Nangking when the storm troopers storm in

Yet this is not a battle or war between two armies
No, this is a holocaust perpetrated to destroy a democracy and cleanse a land ethnically
This is a professor getting terminated for speaking up for his people
An assassination executed while he was at home by a US supplied missile that killed his 11 kids, wounded 30 neighbors and murdered his 4 wives
This is 3 children playing outside, slaughtered by an F-16 fighter-jet with one of the boys decapitated
This is a Gazan mother and her 3 children having breakfast butchered by an Israeli tank shell and then when Shelly Rubin (CEO) of the Jewish Defense League was informed she e-mailed me: "Thanks for the happy news."
This is 7+days of this catastrophic carnage with 3000 dead and wounded human beings

For this is Gaza, ghetto to 1.5 million refugees
Inside the biggest prison the world has ever seen
And their jailer is their enemy
An adversary who sees them not as victims but vermin to be eradicated
And with US built weaponry, they are executing defenseless people quite efficiently

For those who've once suffered holocaust while the world was silent, now practice what was done to them
For those who were once the victims are now the victimizers
And they've learned their schooling well
And on the sideline once again, are those who are watching but quiet, once again; the world

Within this decades old prison, punishment meted out by their turnkeys
Who with a Jewish faucet manipulate what goes in and what goes out
Medicine, food, electricity, water and even sewage are used as a controlling device and collective punishment
And when some of the prisoners fire off some fireworks in retaliation for their predicament
Or, after another Israeli incursion and assassination that killed the quarry and a number of innocent bystanders
All hell then breaks loose

Two days after Christmas, a Hebrew anaconda death squeeze has now escalated into a blitzkrieg
Surrounded by three sides, with their backs to the sea and the air controlled by helicopter gunships, anana's and state of the art fighter jets
It's a turkey shoot and the Gazan's are sitting ducks
For on three sides is the world's fourth strongest army waiting for the green light,itching for butchery

And inside this tiny enclave i have heard that Ann Frank is alive and well
Ann is hiding from the bombs and the door-to-door search looking for her and her kind
As they blast holes in the walls from house to house
They shoot at anything that moves or anyone with a rock in their hand

This crime against humanity unfolding before our eyes is a civilian catastrophe lauded in the western press as a justified deed
But the truth is, it's a holocaust done by those who had it done to them 65 years ago
Ignored, swept under the rug, and gift-wrapped by sophisticated propaganda
History repeats again and again in it's indifference, silence once more
The silence is deafening and it needs to be broken
And the historical irony, God the irony of it all
To do to others what was once done to them and the world just as quiet as before

The world needs to make amends and atone for the wrong of the first holocaust
to sever the cycle of wanton genocide and break the betrayal of silence
This is our historical second chance
We need to crack this deafening silence with a worldwide outcry
To stop the bloodbath and this must be done today

author: michael

[laid back in the sun]

theres always two sides to every story, like they say 'one mans freedom fighter is anothers terrorist', innocent people are dying on both sides so both sides will feel they are justified in their actions and so the bloodshed will continue.
as for northern ireland it still has more than its fair share of active terrorists so while things may be relatively quiet compared to the past its a bit premature to say everythings sorted out and had the IRA fired 4000 missiles (not to be confused with fireworks!) into england like the various palestinian groups have done against israel then im sure there would have been plenty of support for RAF air strikes against them

[dselevan2]

Come on. All they had to do was stop firing the fucking rockets. If Mexico started firing rockets at San Diego we would wipe them off the face of the earth - cheap labor or no cheap labor.

EDIT. I don't agree with the blatant disregard for human life and targeting areas where there are likely to be civilians and children. This might be unavoidable as the folks in Gaza insist on firing their rockets at Israeli schools. Also the jerks that are responsible for this are trying to blend in with the civilian population which is just really annoying. The whole situation is annoying.

[runcible]

The Irish struggle was (is) basically a Class/Political thing.

No religious background?

[laid back in the sun]

i doubt if anyone in israel who lives within range of the rockets would call them fireworks, people dont retreat to bomb shelters to escape fireworks note also how all these rocket attacks and suicide bombings are all directed against innocent civilians. as for giving concessions to terrorists well that seems the best option so long as you are detached from the conflict, if however you have had friends and family killed and maimed by those terrorists you may feel less inclined to appease them and have them put in positions of power and i doubt any amount of talks would have prevented 9/11 or the london bombings as they were carried out by people who think they are doing the work of god and they wont compromise their religious beliefs for anyone. i also think you will find the troubles in northern ireland has everything to do with religion (hundreds of years of inter religious fighting) with politics and class playing a minor role in comparison. the sooner all religion is confined to the dustbin of history the better for mankind... although we'll probably just find some other differences to fight over with each other, race ethnic divisions etc.

[dselevan2]

In no way is this really a holocaust. Seriously, if Israel wanted to wipe these people off the face of the Earth, as Hitler did, they could use their nuclear, conventional, and chemical arsenal against their enemies and their civilian populations. It can't even really be compared to genocide in Africa where villagers were raping and killing their neighbors. I believe they are attempting to hit military targets which is really difficult since the Hamas people are firing rockets from apartment buildings. I've seen that on TV. I'm just as disturbed by violence as anyone else. I just don't think this can be compared to the evils of WWII, including the bombs my own country dropped on Japan. It is possible that Israel is putting unnecessary suffering and strain on civilians, including casualties, but I would think that is just a tactic to try to get them to kick the terrorists out of their neighborhoods. I don't really know very much about this crises or the IRA, only what I've seen in movies and TV, but I really can see why holocaust survivors are so pissed off about the comparison. No one is going into neighborhoods and stealing people's possessions and shipping them off to concentration camps to do labor until they are exterminated. Hundreds not millions of people have died. It is in self defense. I'm sure Israel would love peace as they really do need international support to function in the way that they do.

I just saw this graph (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7826968.stm#map) and the number of rockets being fired into Israel is actually going down. So it's really hard for someone to say this isn't in self defense and that they are just trying to wipe out a population.

[runcible]

No one is going into neighborhoods and stealing people's possessions and shipping them off to concentration camps to do labor until they are exterminated.

I'll tell you where something like this going on and 'the West' is doing fuck all, and that's Zimbabwe. What Mugabe is doing is not a million miles away from what Hitler did. And yet there is still debate as to whether the England cricket team should tour there. It's been close to unwatchable when stuff appears on the news about this and I find it really upsetting.

[dselevan2]

No one is going into neighborhoods and stealing people's possessions and shipping them off to concentration camps to do labor until they are exterminated.

I'll tell you where something like this going on and 'the West' is doing fuck all, and that's Zimbabwe. What Mugabe is doing is not a million miles away from what Hitler did. And yet there is still debate as to whether the England cricket team should tour there. It's been close to unwatchable when stuff appears on the news about this and I find it really upsetting.

I agree. The stuff that goes on in places like Zimbabwe is insane compared to this. And it isn't in self defense at all. It sucks that we are so desensitized to death by all these atrocities. Spaceman was right when he wrote Sweet Talk, it really is easy to talk about this stuff when your far away from the bullets and bombs.

[Hedspace]

The Israeli government wants peace, but only one imposed on its own terms, based on the acceptance of defeat by the Palestinians. It means the Israelis can keep the slabs of the West Bank on "their" side of the wall. It means they keep the largest settlements and control the water supply. And it means a divided Palestine, with responsibility for Gaza hived off to Egypt, and the broken-up West Bank standing alone. Negotiations threaten this vision: they would require Israel to give up more than it wants to. But an imposed peace will be no peace at all: it will not stop the rockets or the rage. For real safety, Israel will have to talk to the people it is blockading and bombing today, and compromise with them:
Johann Hari, "The True Story Behind this War Is Not The One Israel Is Telling


the problem is Z**nism


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... AD95LNB200

[Greeny]

Rwanda
Liberia
Darfur
Palestine
Zimbabwe
Congo
Iraq

The list goes on...

Since having a child myself I'm a little bit ashamed to say I find it almost impossible to watch the news any more. I cancelled my subscription to The Economist and I've taken refuge almost entirely in music and sports.

[Hedspace]

Fair play Greeny
Whats there to be ashamed about??...its not us that pump that stress and fear out, into our homes.

We went a similar route ourselves and cancelled the TV line (save us a few bob). Choose what we want to watch now if needs must and download it from the net.
Feel a whole lot better for it as well and don't miss it one iota.

Although this shit going on makes my blood boil regardless and I'm sure its the same for the majority of people that we cant in most cases do a fucking thing about it.

reading this at the mo if anyone is interested. Not much to do with the atrocity Israel are imposing but worth a read in light of it all...if your TV breaks down.

Shock Doctrine
Naomi Klein
http://www.iol.ie/~hedspace/ShockDoctrine.zip

[scratch]

I have more than a handful israeli friends and no palestinian friends..
but I dont doubt that this whole israeli offensive only is going to create more violence.
those who say "israel has every right to defend themselves" and think that it warrants killing civilians are idiots
to me that´s like saying that terrorists from countries where the us army has killed civilians has the right to do 9/11 hundreds of times..

and yes the holocaust comparision is simply racist - olmert and perez are NOT holocaust survivors
You have to be really stupid to compare it like that.

[Stuart X.Hunter]

Thought this was a follow on thread from the Surviving Gazza documentary the other night.

I wish I had an answer to the worlds conflicts but I don't.
Pish aint it.
Actually we all probably have the answer but then there's the "passions" (if you like)...such a huge waste.
Unfortuantely we are all just evolving products of civilisation and in truth getting further away from the meaning or (part meaning) of that word daily.
The answer? I dunno...start again, maybe.
It's just fcukin' bleak.

What pains me most is the bodies set up to resolve this and the treaties signed up too be adhered too are not doing anything. It's like everything else in this arsehole society where it's done for a bit then just disregarded.

And in closing I don't believe in anyway that fear can be fought with fear. It surely must be fought with no fear. Retaliation or elongation of the problem by retaliating will only fuel the flames of your foe. Let them win, let them win and then let them win again until one day they will not. This is no consolement for the dead, dying or those that have lost through death but it will happen.

Does anyone know any jokes?

"I said to my wife the other night; I saw a fox on the road to Leicester".
She replied; "Really? How did you know it was going to Leicester?".

Pump up the volume

[dselevan2]

Wow. This situation is really crazy. I don't have any clue what the hell Israel is supposed to do. These are terrorists and I don't see how you can negotiate a peace treaty with terrorists. It's a bad idea to negotiate with terrorists. I mean they negotiate with the Somali pirates and now being a Somali pirate is a legitimate profession. Hamas doesn't appear to be even slightly interested in peace. I hate killing and war but I haven't really heard any reasonable alternatives to getting rid of the terrorists who have these missiles which can strike further and further into Israel. According to the news this is effecting 1 million people there. What is there alternative? Make another deal?

[burst]

But these 'terrorists' are a democratically elected government - that's hard to argue with. Unfortunately most of the countries around Israel don't recognise its existence because they feel the land it occupies doesn't belong to them. Therefore lies the problem - and one which has no solution that pleases everyone.

[dselevan2]

As much as I feel bad about what happened in Gaza, I don't think that a terrorist group getting elected really means anything. There were some countries in Latin America in the '70s who had lots of democratic elections. People were free to run against them. Right before the election they would take everyone who decided to appose the government in power and push them out of an airplane. Does this make that a legitimate government? What about Zimbabwe? Mugabe was also democratically elected.

[JPB]

"Mugabe was also democratically elected"
I would argue that. He was using torture camps to 'convince' people not to vote etc.

Isreal has used the last day's of Bush in power to go in and do whatever the hell they like. Hamas should not fire rockets - of course not. But the disproportionate response will create a thousand new 'terrorists' in Gaza.

A lot rests on Obama's shoulders now. I hope he doesn't waste the chance he's been given like most other politicians. Remember labour getting in in 1997 and the feeling of 'wow - stuff will change now'. Did it fuck.

[runcible]

As much as I feel bad about what happened in Gaza, I don't think that a terrorist group getting elected really means anything. There were some countries in Latin America in the '70s who had lots of democratic elections. People were free to run against them. Right before the election they would take everyone who decided to appose the government in power and push them out of an airplane. Does this make that a legitimate government? What about Zimbabwe? Mugabe was also democratically elected.

I believe you are wrong on both counts Dave. Hamas won the vote - they didn't cheat and were legitimately elected. They are widely supported in Gaza. The previous ruling party, Fatah, were apparently pretty corrupt. Those 2 parties don't get on. Mugabe stole the election in Zimbabwe - he DID cheat - after most people voted for the MDC and many others were intimidated into voting for him. That's happened more than once actually.

[laid back in the sun]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=waJLsTIohd8

[laid back in the sun]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=BSB00sNoubA

[laid back in the sun]

israel actually wanted hamas in power instead of fatah, they even funded them in the early days to divide support for the PLO..... bet thats a strategy they regret now

[dselevan2]

israel actually wanted hamas in power instead of fatah, they even funded them in the early days to divide support for the PLO..... bet thats a strategy they regret now

Interesting! I was under the impression from the US news organizations that Hamas was simply a paramilitary terrorist group. They show training camps, and people jumping out of windows with machine guns, which are very similar to Al Queda. Perhaps they are using the same old stock footage. I really don't know anything about what is really going on, both sides are spinning the issue. One of my friends said it was like they watch Fox News 24/7. I would say that goes for both sides, it's really hard to get a handle of what is really happening from here.

[dselevan2]

I believe you are wrong on both counts Dave. Hamas won the vote - they didn't cheat and were legitimately elected. They are widely supported in Gaza. The previous ruling party, Fatah, were apparently pretty corrupt. Those 2 parties don't get on. Mugabe stole the election in Zimbabwe - he DID cheat - after most people voted for the MDC and many others were intimidated into voting for him. That's happened more than once actually.

You are probably right. I wasn't following their rise to power.

[Hedspace]

"Israels Gargantuan Crime"


http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish ... 4186.shtml

[Broc]

[quote="is"]
As to how British people would feel if similar crimes had been perpetrated against them? Well, over the course of 'the Troubles', the IRA (etc) killed plenty of innocent civilians in acts of completely random violence, including setting car bombs in busy shopping streets, bombs in pubs, hotels and the rest. Sometimes they phoned in warnings, in the hope they'd only kill Policemen (Oh, I know that our Government locked up some innocent people, and the army shot more than a few too). The solution to the Troubles (as you say - it's still on a knife edge) lay in everybody deciding to TALK to their enemies, and to offer concessions.

The Irish struggle was (is) basically a Class/Political thing.quote]

That's bollix. Lack of Human Rights (voting, education, housing) led to the Civil Rights marches of the late 60s, then the Paratroopers (whom were welcomed first by the Catholics to protect them from the security forces) killed 13 or so innocent civilians on a march and hey presto, the IRA were re-invigorated.

Also there were plenty of bombs and murders by loyalist paramailitaries, the difference between them and the IRA was the British and Northen Irish security forces were aiding and abetting the loyalist paramilitaries.

[Hedspace]

And the US were funding the IRA.

Hamas dont have any of these "luxuries"
The rockets Hamas are using are of a far lower standard than that of IRA bombs and the Israeli Armies US backed Might.
Basically chucking cans full of fertilizer into Israel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qassam_rocket


I read its not so much out of desperation the rockets are fired into Israel but more of a 2 fingered gesture from a people who have suffered a brutal, medieval siege at the hands of Israel for years.



it is true that…

ISRAEL targets civilians - more than two thirds of the dead are women and children. So why allow Tzipi Livni to say: “Gaza Strip being controlled by Hamas, and the price is being paid by Israeli children and Palestinian children, but the blame is and the address is Hamas.” This is a clear lie. What Israeli children have been killed? The only dead children are in Gaza.

HAMAS is a political organisation which has a military wing and not the other way around. It was democratically elected by the people who were sick of the previous corrupt politicians who let them down.

ISRAEL broke the ceasefire on November 4 2008 - a fact finally acknowledged on CNN nearly two months later in a discussion show although the BBC, Fox and other western media have yet to mention this.

HAMAS does not use civilians as human shields - again, where is the evidence? Israel needs to put up or shut up, but the media never demands to see the evidence.
ISRAEL says it cares about civilians and warns them in advance of the bombing raids in their area - well so did the IRA but I don’t remember anyone congratulating them on their humanitarian actions.

Beware of the latest lie about to hit the media about Hamas commander Mahmoud Zahar who, according to the Zionist propaganda said Jewish children across the world are targets. A guest columnist in The Guardian quoted Zahar as saying: “The Zionists have legitimised the killing of their children by killing our children. They have legitimised the killing of their people all over the world by killing our people.”

This is not what he said. Unfortunately the Arabic translation was incorrect and those who should know better have failed to check the original speech against the transcript.

The damage has now been done and it remains to see if an apology or correction will follow.

As Sir Winston Churchill said: “A lie is halfway round the world before the truth has a chance to get its boots on.”

[laid back in the sun]

As to how British people would feel if similar crimes had been perpetrated against them? Well, over the course of 'the Troubles', the IRA (etc) killed plenty of innocent civilians in acts of completely random violence, including setting car bombs in busy shopping streets, bombs in pubs, hotels and the rest. Sometimes they phoned in warnings, in the hope they'd only kill Policemen (Oh, I know that our Government locked up some innocent people, and the army shot more than a few too). The solution to the Troubles (as you say - it's still on a knife edge) lay in everybody deciding to TALK to their enemies, and to offer concessions.

The Irish struggle was (is) basically a Class/Political thing.quote]

That's bollix. Lack of Human Rights (voting, education, housing) led to the Civil Rights marches of the late 60s, then the Paratroopers (whom were welcomed first by the Catholics to protect them from the security forces) killed 13 or so innocent civilians on a march and hey presto, the IRA were re-invigorated.

Also there were plenty of bombs and murders by loyalist paramailitaries, the difference between them and the IRA was the British and Northen Irish security forces were aiding and abetting the loyalist paramilitaries.

whereas the ira were aided and abetted by the irish security forces and harboured from prosecution and given a safe haven by the irish state and still are to this day, columbia are still seeking the return of three ira members who were arrested after leaving a FARC controlled area where they had been sharing their bomb making techniques, the FARC are a particularly nasty columbian terrorist group who force children into their ranks to fight for them their excuse was they were on a nature watching holiday.... but travelling on false passports for some reason

[Broc]

whereas the ira were aided and abetted by the irish security forces and harboured from prosecution and given a safe haven by the irish state and still are to this day,

I know of gun running in 1972 by some politicians but not since then, what proof have you of this? I'd say you want to believe this more than it's actually true.

columbia are still seeking the return of three ira members who were arrested after leaving a FARC controlled area where they had been sharing their bomb making techniques, the FARC are a particularly nasty columbian terrorist group who force children into their ranks to fight for them their excuse was they were on a nature watching holiday.... but travelling on false passports for some reason

I'm not defending the IRA, they were basically the same as the loyalist terrorists, the difference being state collusion form British Forces in giving loyalist paramilitaries lists of catholic's addresses, the B-Specials which were more or less armed vigilane groups with guns from the police/army. The first attempt at power sharing in 1974 was shot down because in essence Unionists did not want catholics to have an equal share (I'm not a catholic btw). There have been far more instances of Irish police prosecuting IRA members than RUC forces prosecuting loyalists.

The IRA-FARC point is true but irrelevant in this case.

The RUC even knew about the Omagh bomb in 1998 but let them go ahead.

We could argue all day about this but the point I'm trying to make is that terrorism by an armed group on civilians is less offensive than terrorism meted out to civilians by the security forces of a state, in this case Israel.

[runcible]

We could argue all day about this but the point I'm trying to make is that terrorism by an armed group on civilians is less offensive than terrorism meted out to civilians by the security forces of a state, in this case Israel.

Sadly that is the crucial point. State sponsored or legitimised violence is passed off as being acceptable by the country responsible - from Iraq to Israel to Zimbabwe - but when it's the other way round it isn't. I certainly don't believe Hamas are exactly attractive in their actions either.

I find it all horrible. There were images of an attack on an area full of children in Gaza on TV last night and while the guy was filming it on his phone another missile hit. Then they showed all this phosphorus lying around much later, which smoulders for days after and only needs to be hit with a stone to start flaming again. I'm ignorant on the use of such a substance in these sort of situations but phosphorus appears as bad as many chemical weapons that are so regularly criticised. Really vile stuff.

[laid back in the sun]

whereas the ira were aided and abetted by the irish security forces and harboured from prosecution and given a safe haven by the irish state and still are to this day,

I know of gun running in 1972 by some politicians but not since then, what proof have you of this? I'd say you want to believe this more than it's actually true.

columbia are still seeking the return of three ira members who were arrested after leaving a FARC controlled area where they had been sharing their bomb making techniques, the FARC are a particularly nasty columbian terrorist group who force children into their ranks to fight for them their excuse was they were on a nature watching holiday.... but travelling on false passports for some reason

I'm not defending the IRA, they were basically the same as the loyalist terrorists, the difference being state collusion form British Forces in giving loyalist paramilitaries lists of catholic's addresses, the B-Specials which were more or less armed vigilane groups with guns from the police/army. The first attempt at power sharing in 1974 was shot down because in essence Unionists did not want catholics to have an equal share (I'm not a catholic btw). There have been far more instances of Irish police prosecuting IRA members than RUC forces prosecuting loyalists.

The IRA-FARC point is true but irrelevant in this case.

The RUC even knew about the Omagh bomb in 1998 but let them go ahead.

We could argue all day about this but the point I'm trying to make is that terrorism by an armed group on civilians is less offensive than terrorism meted out to civilians by the security forces of a state, in this case Israel.

there is plenty of evidence to support claims of ira garda collusion http://victims.org.uk/s08zhk/index2.php ... f=1&id=184 and the ira farc point is perfectly relevent as it shows the irish government is still prepared to provide a safe haven to terrorists. i'd also be very surprised if the gardas arrest figures of ira members was anywhere near the numbers of loyalist terrorists arrested by the ruc, the garda only started making any concerted effort to arrest ira members after one of their members was killed by the ira during a robbery.
in my opinion terrorism by an armed group on civilians is equally offensive as terrorism by the security forces of a state! murder is murder and shouldnt be supported by anyone but unfortunately its often seen as the only option in acheiving a nation or political movements objectives.
btw as an atheist i cant call myself a protestant, i do however have many catholic friends, we just dont talk politics as we all know theres no point in trying to convert each other from our political beliefs, doesnt stop us being friends though!

[Stuart X.Hunter]

btw as an atheist i cant call myself a protestant, i do however have many catholic friends, we just dont talk politics as we all know theres no point in trying to convert each other from our political beliefs, doesnt stop us being friends though!...

Excuse me LBITS but Dave (dselevan2) was not too up too speed with what was going on in Palestine and in some way this sorta shows what happens on a very minute scale; i.e. between a person and his friends.

The people with the power can't talk either and furthermore are also uncomfortable at admitting what/who they are. They need to be seen to be doing well; not letting there followers down but also not giving there opposition an inch to cut them down either.

Unfortunately the minute details matter...hell even the fucking semantics matter!

Let's hope Obama has nuts of granite but at the end of the day he's just one man.

[dselevan2]

Excuse me LBITS but Dave (dselevan2) was not too up too speed with what was going on in Palestine and in some way this sorta shows what happens on a very minute scale; i.e. between a person and his friends.

True. I'm still trying to figure out what the hell is going on.

[runcible]

True. I'm still trying to figure out what the hell is going on.

So is the rest of the planet...

[Broc]

LBITS, I didn’t say that the Irish police did not collude with republican terrorists, that isn't the point really.

I guessed that link was to FAIR before I even opened it, they’re hardly objective are they? Neither side has a monopoly on suffering. I have no time for any religion really and raise my daughters without it..

Where I strongly disagree with you though is equating terrorism by an armed group on civilians and terrorism meted out to civilians by the security forces of a state. Collective punishment never works. It only foments the next generation of freedom fighters/terrorists. It has happened many times before. I can’t believe Israel is still allowed do this in 2009.

It’s obscene.

[Hedspace]

http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/20090116.htm