how's yr oil pack? / The World Vs. MSP!

It's fairly unlikely you'd have made it here without ever having heard of Jason's previous incarnation. So here you go, talk away...

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plastic37
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how's yr oil pack? / The World Vs. MSP!

Post by plastic37 »

Just wondering how other peoples copies of Soul Kiss Glide Divide were these days. Mine is still ever so slightly fluid. Nothing like it was on release though.
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by runcible »

I keep mine in a sealed plastic bag on top of my other vinyl rather than in the rack. Still appears to be intact.

Whether you love or hate this record it's existence kept the Manic Street Preachers from reaching number 1 in the indie or alternative charts. I'd say that warrants its place in my affection forever. Also I think it's an incredible record on every level. That helps.
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by plastic37 »

I just listened to neon sigh, that's why i got the oil pack out as i couldn't find my normal version. I love that and To the Moon and back but not much else.
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by BzaInSpace »

runcible wrote:
Whether you love or hate this record it's existence kept the Manic Street Preachers from reaching number 1 in the indie or alternative charts. I'd say that warrants its place in my affection forever. .
"And for that reason...I'm out!"

Hey, a few years later they never had to worry about such trivialities as the 'indie' charts - the only one that ever mattered was the Top 40, where they linger to this day...

I don't own an oil pack. :(
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by runcible »

There are many that regard Soul Kiss as the best post-Spacemen 3 release. It's up there with Lazer Guided Melodies and anything else that came after the split. Barring the last EAR-esque track it flows absolutely beautifully to the point where it starts to become a concept album. To Pete K's endless frustration I always say how much I love Sweet Running Water (a Richard Formby song) and wish he'd play it live again. Soul Kiss remains a regular listen in this house and I can't see that changing - it's a masterpiece.

Anyone who winds up the horrible Manics always gets a thumbs up from me. Apparently they were absolutely furious with PK. Hilarious! And if you think a place in 'top 40' warrants admiration you're looking at music from a very different angle to me Barry! :wink: (for those not in the know so many of the oil packs split in delivery boxes that contained whatever shite the Manics were pedalling that there weren't enough Manics records to go round and they missed being number 1 as a result - how cool is that? :D )
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by Meo »

2 words - Love it
Liquid still liquid despite being rammed in with the others but all colour has faded from said juice and has made turqoise drippy stains!
As long as it still sounds out there.......
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by nickh »

Manic Street Preachers sabotaged? I never knew that, brilliant!! :lol:

I got mine in Our Price in Richmond and when I got home I realised it was two copies stuck together!
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by mojo filters »

runcible wrote:There are many that regard Soul Kiss as the best post-Spacemen 3 release. It's up there with Lazer Guided Melodies and anything else that came after the split. To Pete K's endless frustration I always say how much I love Sweet Running Water (a Richard Formby song) and wish he'd play it live again....it's a masterpiece.
+1

I especially enjoy 'Sweet Running Water' as well - Richard Formby never seems to get the credit he deserves, the last track of his I have is the brilliant Dean & Britta remix of 'Singer Sing' - ironically a far more interesting mix in comparison to PK's contribution to 'Variation', which whilst good, just tends to remind me (along with the 'White Horses' Sonic Cathedral remix) of the earlier 'Sonic Souvenirs' album.

Roll on the flying wings of mercury, or whatever it's called - I'm starting to get a bit bored of 'Indian Giver' and the 'War Sucks' EP through over-listening, but would love to hear more in the same vein.
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by Ian »

My CD still has fluid oil. Played Soul Kiss a few times recently after giving it a year or so off. Still the best post-Spacemen album.
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by davew »

I sadly don't own the oilfilled pack, tho i do have the normal vinyl. Have to add my vote for it being a tremendous piece of work from the first song on.

Roll on a new album, i have faith.
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by jadams501 »

runcible wrote:There are many that regard Soul Kiss as the best post-Spacemen 3 release. It's up there with Lazer Guided Melodies and anything else that came after the split. Barring the last EAR-esque track it flows absolutely beautifully to the point where it starts to become a concept album. To Pete K's endless frustration I always say how much I love Sweet Running Water (a Richard Formby song) and wish he'd play it live again. Soul Kiss remains a regular listen in this house and I can't see that changing - it's a masterpiece.
The best tracks on Soul Kiss -- How You Satisfy Me, Neon Sigh, To The Moon And Back, Touch The Stars -- are as good as anything post-Spacemen, but overall the album to me does not reach the consistent perfection of Lazer Guided Melodies. There are too many detours and asides that amount to self-indulgence. I'd say a better comparison is Pure Phase, in terms of mixing prime cuts with material that amounts to filler.
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by Already There »

jadams501 wrote: The best tracks on Soul Kiss -- How You Satisfy Me, Neon Sigh, To The Moon And Back, Touch The Stars -- are as good as anything post-Spacemen, but overall the album to me does not reach the consistent perfection of Lazer Guided Melodies. There are too many detours and asides that amount to self-indulgence. I'd say a better comparison is Pure Phase, in terms of mixing prime cuts with material that amounts to filler.
Oh yeah, I agree. It's hard to beat that album, even though I totally love Touch The Stars and How You Satisfy. I get your Pure Phase comparison, although I love this album to bits.
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by plastic37 »

Thanks for the Manic Street Preachers anecdote.
Good to hear that the oil packs have just about held up.
What's the name of the Hollies track that sounds very much like How You Satisfy Me? I can't recall it.
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by Ian »

plastic37 wrote:What's the name of the Hollies track that sounds very much like How You Satisfy Me? I can't recall it.
I Can't Let Go, originally recorded by Evie Sands (Pete makes no secret that HYSM was based on her version).
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by BzaInSpace »

runcible wrote: And if you think a place in 'top 40' warrants admiration you're looking at music from a very different angle to me Barry! :wink:
Nah - 'twas you that mentioned the 'indie' chart, where even in the 90s, selling a few hundred copies sold would get you a place in there. Meaningless? All 'charts' are meaningless - particlularly those based on commerce.

Your own personal chart in your head is the one to care about.

Soul Kiss (Glide Divine) is a good album - but to burn onto the theme developing for all you MSP-haters - it's not as good as The Holy Bible.

Eat it... :P
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by runcible »

BzaInSpace wrote: Soul Kiss (Glide Divine) is a good album - but to burn onto the theme developing for all you MSP-haters - it's not as good as The Holy Bible.
:lol: I love your sense of humour Barry!
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Glive Divine VS Holy Bible

Post by BzaInSpace »

Mark, who said I was joking...? :wink:
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Re: Glive Divine VS Holy Bible

Post by runcible »

BzaInSpace wrote:Mark, who said I was joking...? :wink:
Well, I did. And I know you'll say you weren't but I know you too well and that classic Scottish humour is impossible to hide! :)
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by plastic37 »

Thanks for the link Ian. I hadn't heard that orignal version which is clearly the source. I had thought that Pete had been more creative and based HYSM on the Hollies track.

With regard to MSP, i never liked the music but to get phrases like: "if you tolerate this, then your children will be next" ciruclating the upper reaches of the charts and on the nations airwaves was something i respected them for. Of course when i start this conversation I am always told that their politics was pseudo and largely borrrowed/convinient. But they still did it.
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by runcible »

plastic37 wrote:But they still did it.
There are the other horrible things they did too - Nicky Wire's comments particularly - which make me despise them. Oh, and this is the most important part - their music is absolutely appalling. At least I have to hand them an award for consistency on that one!
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by Ian »

I used to work with Toby Clarke, one of the sons of Hollies singer Allan Clarke. Toby is a massive Spacemen 3 fan. I remember him playing me a song he'd made based around a sample of the drum loop from Feelin' Just Fine (Head Full Of Shit).
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by Ian »

Oh, and while my enthusiasm for the Manics doesn't really extend to much before or after, The Holy Bible is quite the towering achievement. I'm not expecting to convert anyone, but it is well worth an unbiased listen.
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by runcible »

Ian wrote: it is well worth an unbiased listen.
I guess that counts me out! :lol:
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by plastic37 »

Ladies and gentlemen, I have just recieved a facebook invitation to an event called
IF YOU TOLERATE BIS, KENICKIE WILL BE NEXT

class
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oil spill

Post by BzaInSpace »

Ian wrote:Oh, and while my enthusiasm for the Manics doesn't really extend to much before or after, The Holy Bible is quite the towering achievement. I'm not expecting to convert anyone, but it is well worth an unbiased listen.
If only!

But of course Ian is absolutely correct.

I also don't believe their politics are contrived or anything - they all were from working class, left-wing backgrounds. They all grew up in a ex-mining town fucked over by Thatcher.

And please - let's take some of the 19 years of age Nicky Wire's twenty year old!!! comments-for-controversy's sake with a bit of salt at this point:

Loads of rock/pop/whatever stars have said controversial/horrible/stupid things - some much worse that Wire's - yet when I think of John Lennon for example, I don't really remember some of the brutal stuff he came out...anytime really.

Or when I hear an Oasis song, I don't tend to recall how Noel Gallagher, in the midst of a total coke blitz with some journo in the mid 90s wished Damon and Alex out of Blur "to catch AIDS and die".

I don't believe you can really judge an entire band's music by stuff like that, unless it's obviously just blatant hate/ignorance/prejudice.

And personally, I find the "we hate Slowdive more than Hitler" pretty fucking hilarious. But that's just me...
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Re: oil spill

Post by runcible »

BzaInSpace wrote: I don't believe you can really judge an entire band's music by stuff like that, unless it's obviously just blatant hate/ignorance/prejudice.
...unless the entire band's music is pure unadulterated shite... That's largely what formed my opinion of the Manics I'm afraid. :D

But hey... my all-time musical hero is Lee Scratch Perry - not meant to be a nice man at ALL. At least his musical legacy is worth listening to. Also Chuck Berry is meant to be a real ogre - that's another story...

Ta-ding! Next!
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by spzretent »

plastic37 wrote:Ladies and gentlemen, I have just recieved a facebook invitation to an event called
IF YOU TOLERATE BIS, KENICKIE WILL BE NEXT

class
Someone just wake up from a 15 year nap?
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by olan »

This thread is turning into top class material for an episode of Grumpy Old Men. The last posts from Runcible and Spzretent nearly made me inhale my tea with laughter......

Sadly, I have to admit a deep seated dislike of the MSP. First there was the 4 REAL stuff in the NME, which I thought was simply stupidgrandstanding and really got on my tits. (Similarly the "Mad Richard" coverage of Verve also put me off them for yonks). It appears that my early prejudice was misplaced given what happened subsequently. However, I was unlucky enough to work as a lighting tech at a couple of MSP gigs around about 1992. It was just about the worst experience musically and in particularly in terms of personalities I had in 3.5 years of that game. Only doing gigs for Carter USM and Rofl Harris managed to make less musical impression on me, but at least they were nice people and the shows had a good old funtime atmosphere, unlike.........(getting angry now, I'll leave it)
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by runcible »

olan wrote:This thread is turning into top class material for an episode of Grumpy Old Men. The last posts from Runcible and Spzretent nearly made me inhale my tea with laughter......
You should hear me and my mate (also my boss) at work. I think when you go past 35 every year turns up the intolerance several degrees!
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by spzretent »

That makes me a well oiled intolerant machine! :twisted:

In truth it has made me appreciate what I like a lot more and fortunately I am able quickly distinguish whether a particualr band/record is something i'll likely play again. If the answer is no, I move on.
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Re: oil spill

Post by jadams501 »

BzaInSpace wrote: I also don't believe their politics are contrived or anything - they all were from working class, left-wing backgrounds. They all grew up in a ex-mining town fucked over by Thatcher.
Oh, come on. Even if you hate Thatcher one must admit that the British economy was in shambles in the late 70s after decades of Labour control, and those mining towns were already in rough shape. Maybe Thatcher moved too dramatically or in the wrong direction, maybe she made things even worse, but blaming everything on the Tories and saying that everything would have been gangbusters if only the economy was more planned is just wishful thinking.

I have no problem with bands dealing with political themes, but the Manics took it to a melodramatic and laughable extreme. Not only is everything I've heard by them (admittedly only If You Tolerate This... and The Holy Bible) musically dull, but their lyrical content is arrogant, ignorant, and shockingly dim-witted.

Terrible, terrible band. Big props to Pete for the oil pack incident.
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Re: oil spill

Post by olan »

jadams501 wrote:
BzaInSpace wrote: Not only is everything I've heard by them (admittedly only If You Tolerate This... and The Holy Bible) musically dull, but their lyrical content is arrogant, ignorant, and shockingly dim-witted.

Terrible, terrible band. Big props to Pete for the oil pack incident.
I can vouch for the fact that it is not just their lyrical content that "is arrogant, ignorant, and shockingly dim-witted". I think you need to add dour, humourless and relentlessly banal to the description before you say "Terrible, terrible band". Otherwise, I won't disagree with a word you've posted.
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by sunray »

plastic37 wrote:Ladies and gentlemen, I have just recieved a facebook invitation to an event called
IF YOU TOLERATE BIS, KENICKIE WILL BE NEXT
My favourite is from when Graham Rix became manager of Hearts. A few years before he got the job Rix had been jailed for having sex with a 15 year old girl and so at one of Hearts' games the oppostion fans sang " IF YOU TOLERATE RIX THEN YOUR CHILDREN WILL BE NEXT". :lol:
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by radioshack »

sunray wrote:
plastic37 wrote:Ladies and gentlemen, I have just recieved a facebook invitation to an event called
IF YOU TOLERATE BIS, KENICKIE WILL BE NEXT
My favourite is from when Graham Rix became manager of Hearts. A few years before he got the job Rix had been jailed for having sex with a 15 year old girl and so at one of Hearts' games the oppostion fans sang " IF YOU TOLERATE RIX THEN YOUR CHILDREN WILL BE NEXT". :lol:
That's hilarious! As is the Sonic Sabotage of MSP early music (which was as soft rock as anything they ever released). The lyrics were far too vain and self-consciously trying to be clever to ever be digestable on any serious level. Honey baby jesus love for me, thanks.

Does anyone have a picture of this legendary piece of pop history (the oil pack, not the MSP single!!) for me to look at? I wasn't aware of it.

Thanks.
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by runcible »

Not a great image but...
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by natty »

Mine is in pretty bad shape, the oil dried up years ago.

It's also as good as anything Jason's done as far as I'm concerned. It's a brilliant record. I remember a review or interview at the time it came out comparing it to LGM that said something like "While Jason's been sat in the cathedral tuning his instruments, Sonic has been in the garage next door meditating", which made me laugh but was quite illustrative I thought.

Oh, and I fukn loathe the Manic Street Preachers. They make me cringe.
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by radioshack »

Thanks for posting Runcible. It looks cool!
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by Chris Barrus »

Who are the Manic Street Preachers? ;) They sound rather irrelevant.

(sarcasm intended)
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by radioshack »

Chris Barrus wrote:Who are the Manic Street Preachers? ;) They sound rather irrelevant.

(sarcasm intended)
A band who are apparently 'gutted' their latest single didn't make the top 40. And apparently the first to fail to do so since 1991.

Where's Sonic when you need him?
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by Kurious Oranj »

manics always struck me as a bit cheesy

like a british version of guns n roses
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by niamhm »

Kurious Oranj wrote:manics always struck me as a bit cheesy

like a british version of guns n roses
they wished ,less musically competent and more intellectually pretentious.
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by burningwheel »

dried up. i also had a cd by aube, it was just water, somehow a spider got into it and died, that dried up too. cool idea but not practical IMO
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Re: how's yr oil pack?

Post by marcvolta »

My LP still has all of the liquid in it, but it seems like the color has all settled to the bottom...
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SPOIL, ILL!

Post by BzaInSpace »

jadams501 wrote:Not only is everything I've heard by them (admittedly only If You Tolerate This... and The Holy Bible) musically dull, but their lyrical content is arrogant, ignorant, and shockingly dim-witted.

Terrible, terrible band. Big props to Pete for the oil pack incident.
Wow - d'ya think Pete did it on purpose? He probably lost out a bit as so many of his own records were spoiled.

I hardly think hearing one song and one album of a band who have a fairly extensive discography qualifies an educated opinion of them... does it? It's like someone else round here said - "I heard The Holy Bible once, didn't like it". Hearing it once is not quite the same as listening...

I listened to that album back as a young lad with my ears wide open, without prejudice (unlike almost everyone here!!!) and even I found it took several listening to digest. I also don't believe you'll find much ignorance in those lyrics.

I think - strictly IMO! - you all hate them because they brought some drama, outrage, sexiness and rock n' roll to music at that time...and slagged off some minor shoegazers! Sadly, almost nobody is talking about the actual music they made. It's all personality stuff. And Nicky's 20 year old comments.
jadams501 wrote:...but their lyrical content is arrogant, ignorant, and shockingly dim-witted.
That's Oasis you're talking about, that is...

:wink:
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Re: SPOIL, ILL!

Post by runcible »

BzaInSpace wrote:
I think - strictly IMO! - you all hate them because they brought some drama, outrage, sexiness and rock n' roll to music at that time...
:lol: :lol: :lol: Nope - it's because the music was so awful.
BzaInSpace wrote:Sadly, almost nobody is talking about the actual music they made.
I am - it's all rubbish! I listened to all those early singles and that first album and even the pile of pretentious crap that was The Holy Bible. Garbage - all of it.
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Faster/PCP

Post by BzaInSpace »

Like I said - strictly IMO!

And like I said - there's a difference hearing and listening to it.

The Holy Bible pretentious? "I don't believe you!"

And I don't think so either - the music is exclusively basic guitar/bass/drums/vocals, none of the songs are elongated beyond necessary, the sound of the album is very much live-in-the-studio with little in the way of production values and overdubs etc. Do you mean the lyrics? I disagree too. Cryptic and dense and loaded with meaning, yeah sure. But they're sung with feeling and emotion as stark as it may be...one is in no doubt to the feelings they're meant to convey. Mostly... besides - you don't really care about lyrics anyway!

Runcie, you've not really heard it at all have you? I challenge you to go and listen to it again. There are stacks of pretentious albums out there - many featured on these very pages - but this ain't one of them.

Forget the early singles, forget Generation Terrorists (that, aside from 'Motorcycle Emptiness' is pretty much garbage)...but The Holy Bible is a keeper ...for the ages! :P
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Re: how's yr oil pack? / The World Vs. MSP!

Post by runcible »

You won't persuade me Barry! I hated it then and clips I've heard from THB recently sounded so horrible I know I was right the first time. Take 'Revol' - the classic Manics formula of an obvious and corny riff with the chorus just shouted out at the relevant moment. Awful. It's so scripted it's embarrassing. I'll admit I didn't give it endless listens as it was so unpleasant - a couple of times was enough. And sure, lyrics are irrelevant for the most part so that didn't even come into it. The pompous rock posturing of Nicky Wire with his legs apart genuinely believing he was cool when the rest of the word thought he was a wanker - that's the pretentious part, or one of them.

Anyway, getting past those terrible, shouty and straining vocals from that Bradfield arse is pretty impossible - they're even worse than the music. Which is saying something.

Oh, as for the early singles.... 'New Art Riot' - that's not too bad come to think of it. Far more imaginative than anything else I've heard by them. So maybe the early singles have it over the later stuff. The first time I heard Take That's comeback single 'Patience' I genuinely thought it was the Manics - no joke!
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Re: how's yr oil pack? / The World Vs. MSP!

Post by BzaInSpace »

runcible wrote: ...The first time I heard Take That's comeback single 'Patience' I genuinely thought it was the Manics - no joke!
Actually so did I... It sounded like their later MORish stuff and all! :shock:

(Have you ever seen them both in the same room? Maybe Robbie is Richey......??!!)

Ah man - 'New Art Riot' was just bad Clash circa The Clash album xerox music. I thought it was good until I actually heard The Clash.

Fair enough, 'Revol' may be the weak moment on The Holy Bible - it certainly doesn't sound like anything else they did, and a weird choice of single too. Far, inifinitely far better is the truly awesome 'Faster'.

And with 'PCP' as a double 'A' side, one of the all time greatest singles ever made...and my introduction to MSP. :wink:
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Re: how's yr oil pack? / The World Vs. MSP!

Post by plastic37 »

Just had to log back into what is proving to me the most successful discussion i have ever started on here - it was meant to be about records!
Anyway, Nicky Wire writes on the Guardian blog about public funding cuts effecting libraries
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/fe ... res-manics

It turns out that the line LIBRARIES GAVE US POWER is a Manics original, if adapted from an inscription above a library entrance. I had always assumed that they had just nicked it direct. But no, they put the line LIBRARIES GAVE US POWER into common usage and for that, and there are probably other things of great sense that they say in album tracks i am probably never gonna hear, i salute them. At the time i wouldn't let my dislike of their music allow me to do so, but xx years down the line and STILL no one else is doing that sort of thing...


Give me one other example of a band putting a line like that on Radio One in the mid 90s. I really would love to know. I can't think of one.
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Re: SPOIL, ILL!

Post by jadams501 »

BzaInSpace wrote: I hardly think hearing one song and one album of a band who have a fairly extensive discography qualifies an educated opinion of them... does it? It's like someone else round here said - "I heard The Holy Bible once, didn't like it". Hearing it once is not quite the same as listening...

I listened to that album back as a young lad with my ears wide open, without prejudice (unlike almost everyone here!!!) and even I found it took several listening to digest. I also don't believe you'll find much ignorance in those lyrics.
I meant to write Everything Must Go as opposed to the Holy Bible. I've wasted at least several hours trying to hear what all the fuss was about in that album and If You Tolerate This..., only to conclude that the band is bad and that there's little there to appreciate. It wasn't for lack of trying, and I actually really wanted to like it.

At the time I was pretty on board with their politics, but still found their sermonizing preachy and overbearing. They have a simplistic and childish good vs. evil mentality, and they're pretentious about it. Not good and not thoughtful.
BzaInSpace wrote: I think - strictly IMO! - you all hate them because they brought some drama, outrage, sexiness and rock n' roll to music at that time...and slagged off some minor shoegazers! Sadly, almost nobody is talking about the actual music they made. It's all personality stuff. And Nicky's 20 year old comments.
I wasn't tuned into the British music scene when MSP hit it big, and probably am indifferent towards whatever minor shoegazers they displaced. I'm more of a fan of individual acts than of scenes. My dislike of MSP is based solely on my exposure to those two albums.
BzaInSpace wrote:
jadams501 wrote:...but their lyrical content is arrogant, ignorant, and shockingly dim-witted.
That's Oasis you're talking about, that is...

:wink:
What's really more arrogant? Oasis being cocaine-addled jerks writing songs with lyrics that are either nonsense or about the lifestyle -- or MSP being cocaine-addled jerks writing shallow songs that masquerade as sophisticated socio-political commentary?
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Re: how's yr oil pack? / The World Vs. MSP!

Post by plastic37 »

plastic37 wrote:What's really more arrogant? Oasis being cocaine-addled jerks writing songs with lyrics that are either nonsense or about the lifestyle -- or MSP being cocaine-addled jerks writing shallow songs that masquerade as sophisticated socio-political commentary?
I don't agree that the sentiments of the songs we have been discussing masquerade. Why are those sentiments not acceptable as socio-political commentary? Can you give me an exampe of another band bringing those thoughts to the ears of the nation who did, according to your criteria, mean it? Just putting those lines out there in a desert of apathy...
The real way to investigate their impact is to talk to audiences. I suspect this might blow my theories out of the water. I'm gonna check the comments on the Guardian piece and see what the mood is. I'll bet it mirrors our exchanges here: crap band, false politics, shut up Wire... yr nufink
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Re: how's yr oil pack? / The World Vs. MSP!

Post by runcible »

plastic37 wrote:Can you give me an exampe of another band bringing those thoughts to the ears of the nation who did, according to your criteria, mean it?
Crass?
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Post by BzaInSpace »

plastic37 wrote:Just had to log back into what is proving to me the most successful discussion i have ever started on here - it was meant to be about records!
Anyway, Nicky Wire writes on the Guardian blog about public funding cuts effecting libraries
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/fe ... res-manics
It turns out that the line LIBRARIES GAVE US POWER is a Manics original, if adapted from an inscription above a library entrance. I had always assumed that they had just nicked it direct. But no, they put the line LIBRARIES GAVE US POWER into common usage and for that, and there are probably other things of great sense that they say in album tracks i am probably never gonna hear, i salute them. At the time i wouldn't let my dislike of their music allow me to do so, but xx years down the line and STILL no one else is doing that sort of thing...
Give me one other example of a band putting a line like that on Radio One in the mid 90s. I really would love to know. I can't think of one.
There is nobody else. Certainly not Oasis...Noel and Liam probably think libraries are for "sad speccy cunts" or something.

Thanks for the link though - a good piece of writing from the Wire and some good comments amongst the pages there - despite multiple references to the Laffer Curve. :?

Christ - it really does appear like out Millionaire Overlords are determined to destroy everything that is not making profit for shareholders. I eagerly await the day the great British public finally takes their eyes of The Matrix and gives up 'X-Factor' and the android known as Cheryl Cole etc and repeat a bit of what is going on Tunisia and Egypt. If only...
jadams501 wrote:I meant to write Everything Must Go as opposed to the Holy Bible. I've wasted at least several hours trying to hear what all the fuss was about in that album and If You Tolerate This..., only to conclude that the band is bad and that there's little there to appreciate. It wasn't for lack of trying, and I actually really wanted to like it....they have a simplistic and childish good vs. evil mentality, and they're pretentious about it. Not good and not thoughtful.
Right - so you haven't actually heard The Holy Bible then? You should! Certainly before making any more ill-considered comments such as those above...
"Childish good vs. evil mentality?" Really?
Come on man. Take just one example from that album: 'Archives of Pain'.
That song seems to be supporting a call to return to the death penalty (from "lefties?") whilst sypathising with the plight of the victims of murderers as well as condemnation of the media's glorification of serial killers while offering potential reasons for inexplicably horrible behaviour and appears to suggest it may be potentially more common than one would like to consider...and other "childish" stuff like that. "Not thoughtful" either?

And 'If You Tolerate This...' was a single (No.2, UK pop.), not an album.
jadams501 wrote:
BzaInSpace wrote:
jadams501 wrote:...but their lyrical content is arrogant, ignorant, and shockingly dim-witted.
That's Oasis you're talking about, that is...:wink:
What's really more arrogant? Oasis being cocaine-addled jerks writing songs with lyrics that are either nonsense or about the lifestyle -- or MSP being cocaine-addled jerks writing shallow songs that masquerade as sophisticated socio-political commentary?
Eh? The Manics certainly used to be a drinking band (Babysham, vodka and lager I believe) but they've never had anything to do with coke... unless you know something I don't? I have a feeling you're bluffing here! Again!!! :P

However, If I concede that MSP can be arrogant (moreso 20 years ago) will you at least admit that Oasis are, in your own words, "ignorant and shockingly dim-witted"? If so.... DEAL!

And finally, regarding The Oasis one more time: what you hilariously suggest is a "lifestyle" - is that a glimpse of humour at last?
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Re: how's yr oil pack? / The World Vs. MSP!

Post by plastic37 »

runcible wrote:Crass
Soz, i was specifically referring to the mid 90s. I wish MSP had been as inspirational as Crass. A whole scene emerged round them. A scene that still has an impact. Funnily enough, i deleted a section about Crass from an earlier message.

I love this film. Look out for the Angle Poise Lamps:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 386657539#

And don't share a house with anyone who hasn't watched it!
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Re: how's yr oil pack? / The World Vs. MSP!

Post by jadams501 »

plastic37 wrote:I don't agree that the sentiments of the songs we have been discussing masquerade. Why are those sentiments not acceptable as socio-political commentary? Can you give me an exampe of another band bringing those thoughts to the ears of the nation who did, according to your criteria, mean it? Just putting those lines out there in a desert of apathy...
I didn't say they didn't "mean it," they seem stiflingly self-involved enough that I wouldn't expect too much active deception from them, but that the material that they put forward as bracing commentary is by objective standards shallow sloganeering. It says more about their high opinions of themselves than it does about any actual issue.

There are selective incidents of musical acts successfully accomplishing some sort of substantive political commentary in their material, but pop music really just isn't the place for it. I studied public policy at university, so I've seen first hand how complex and multifaceted and nuanced the issues are, and pounding drums and guitar solos inherently leave little room to address these complicated subjects with the attention they require. I'm not saying that it CAN'T be done, but that it's really hard and 99% of acts that try fall flat on their faces.

I'd say that people are better off with non-topical pop music because then they have fewer illusions that they're informed, whereas "politically conscious" groups like MSP give people the impression that they know something about the issue when they've actually only been given a bumper sticker. Part of the reason why politics are messed up in the U.S. is that people listen to smug pundits (on left or right) who feed people slogans and half-truths, and then they assume that they're informed enough to make a decision on the issue -- a similar dynamic happens with music. Better that people know that they're not informed than think they're informed based on an MSP or Rage Against The Machine song.
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Post by jadams501 »

BzaInSpace wrote: Christ - it really does appear like out Millionaire Overlords are determined to destroy everything that is not making profit for shareholders. I eagerly await the day the great British public finally takes their eyes of The Matrix and gives up 'X-Factor' and the android known as Cheryl Cole etc and repeat a bit of what is going on Tunisia and Egypt. If only...
Let's see how the protests turn out, and that they don't lead to something even worse (remember Robespierre in the French Revolution?), before we wish for them to happen in our own countries. And all too many "revolutionaries" have way more ideas to tear down society than they do specific plans to build a better future -- I'd like to see the specific platform you have to improve society.
BzaInSpace wrote:so you haven't actually heard The Holy Bible then? You should! Certainly before making any more ill-considered comments such as those above...
"Childish good vs. evil mentality?" Really?
Come on man. Take just one example from that album: 'Archives of Pain'.
That song seems to be supporting a call to return to the death penalty (from "lefties?") whilst sypathising with the plight of the victims of murderers as well as condemnation of the media's glorification of serial killers while offering potential reasons for inexplicably horrible behaviour and appears to suggest it may be potentially more common than one would like to consider...and other "childish" stuff like that. "Not thoughtful" either?

And 'If You Tolerate This...' was a single (No.2, UK pop.), not an album.
It seems to me that you're putting much more brainpower into trying to make their songs seem intellectually coherent than they devoted to writing the material. I haven't listened to MSP in the several years since I sold the two CDs of theirs I owned to help pay for better music, so my memory is hazy on specific song and album titles. Excuuuuuuuse me for naming the biggest song off of whatever LP had them walking under a big blue sky.
BzaInSpace wrote: Eh? The Manics certainly used to be a drinking band (Babysham, vodka and lager I believe) but they've never had anything to do with coke... unless you know something I don't? I have a feeling you're bluffing here! Again!!! :P
You got me there. I don't know much about MSP's biography than that their original singer went missing and is presumed dead. Based on all of their gratuitous bombast, though, I don't think cocaine was an unrealistic assumption.
BzaInSpace wrote:However, If I concede that MSP can be arrogant (moreso 20 years ago) will you at least admit that Oasis are, in your own words, "ignorant and shockingly dim-witted"? If so.... DEAL!

And finally, regarding The Oasis one more time: what you hilariously suggest is a "lifestyle" - is that a glimpse of humour at last?
I'm an Oasis fan primarily because I think Noel Gallagher is a great songwriter, with fantastic melodies, and a very good singer. Both he and Liam have managed some pretty witty quips to the press, but have surely made fools of themselves on many occasions. I won't speculate on their IQs but neither strikes me as particularly sophisticated. The music suits their personalities -- it's unpretentious, tuneful stadium rock with universal emotions based on their personal experience or allusions to much-loved other bands. They're not anywhere near my favorite band, and I recognize their limitations, but they're not half as embarrassing as MSP.
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Re: how's yr oil pack? / The World Vs. MSP!

Post by plastic37 »

plastic37 wrote:I didn't say they didn't "mean it,"
Someone said masquerade. I didn't look back to who it was.
If you tolerate...
and
Libraries...
are part of the lexicon in the UK.
There is No Authority But Yourself... less so

Idea: let's settle on a TRUTH and set it to the tune of Ecstacy in Slow Motion. Put in on YouTube. Then we'll all be happy!
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Re: how's yr oil pack? / The World Vs. MSP!

Post by BVCP206 »

Both my LP & CD oil pack are in great shape :lol:
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Re: how's yr oil pack? / The World Vs. MSP!

Post by plastic37 »

plastic37 wrote:pop music really just isn't the place for it.
Pop music is culture. Cultural Studies has a lot to say about language.
plastic37 wrote:99% of acts that try fall flat on their faces
I partially agree and propose that MSP were that decades 1%.
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Re: how's yr oil pack? / The World Vs. MSP!

Post by runcible »

plastic37 wrote:
plastic37 wrote:99% of acts that try fall flat on their faces
I partially agree and propose that MSP were that decades 1%.
Wooh boy - I could not be further away from this point of view if I tried so I am in 100% disagreement with you here. There is no band I can think of that means less to me than these guys.

The Beta Band summed it up when they were interviewed and someone asked them about the Manics. They said that the problem with that band was that they couldn't come to terms with the fact that they'd become everything they'd set out to be against.
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Re: how's yr oil pack? / The World Vs. MSP!

Post by jadams501 »

plastic37 wrote:
jadams501 wrote:pop music really just isn't the place for it.
Pop music is culture. Cultural Studies has a lot to say about language.
One can learn all sorts of things about society from pop music, I'm sure, though if aliens were to base their knowledge about humans on the recent crop they'd surely assume that we all abuse drugs constantly while at hoppin' clubs. At some point a psychologist studied thousands of love songs and concluded that, in reality, the sentiments of the vast majority of them would indicate mental illness if verbalized by an ordinary person.

Maybe somebody like Bob Dylan can craft a nuanced and intelligent rock song about income inequality in an age of globalization (he did, in "Union Sundown") but it doesn't mean that most can. I love Jackson Browne, but once he started doing topical material in the 80s I got bored quick. "Power To The People' or "Fight The Power" don't add anything to the conversation and just don't cut it. To the extent that people accept that things like that are substantive, they are going to be manipulated by demagogues claiming to channel the "spirit" of the song.

Political scientists don't generally write pop songs, so why must pop musicians try to do political screeds?
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Re: how's yr oil pack? / The World Vs. MSP!

Post by olan »

jadams501 wrote:
I didn't say they didn't "mean it," they seem stiflingly self-involved enough that I wouldn't expect too much active deception from them, but that the material that they put forward as bracing commentary is by objective standards shallow sloganeering. It says more about their high opinions of themselves than it does about any actual issue.

There are selective incidents of musical acts successfully accomplishing some sort of substantive political commentary in their material, but pop music really just isn't the place for it. I studied public policy at university, so I've seen first hand how complex and multifaceted and nuanced the issues are, and pounding drums and guitar solos inherently leave little room to address these complicated subjects with the attention they require. I'm not saying that it CAN'T be done, but that it's really hard and 99% of acts that try fall flat on their faces.

I'd say that people are better off with non-topical pop music because then they have fewer illusions that they're informed, whereas "politically conscious" groups like MSP give people the impression that they know something about the issue when they've actually only been given a bumper sticker. Part of the reason why politics are messed up in the U.S. is that people listen to smug pundits (on left or right) who feed people slogans and half-truths, and then they assume that they're informed enough to make a decision on the issue -- a similar dynamic happens with music. Better that people know that they're not informed than think they're informed based on an MSP or Rage Against The Machine song.
I would tend to agree with most of this. Compare the MSP's lyrics with those of Crass, Easterhouse or Billy Bragg, to name but three. The MSP's efforts are are cloddish IMHO, nice snippits, but generally leaden footed stuff really. Add to this the fact I find the music dull, as I do for Easterhouse, and the vocals grating and there is little left for me. I'm always surprised at how successful the MSP are, but then it takes all sorts to make the world....I (and others on here) might not enjoy their music, but clearly they have a huge following so good luck to them.
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Re: how's yr oil pack? / The World Vs. MSP!

Post by runcible »

olan wrote:I'm always surprised at how successful the MSP are, but then it takes all sorts to make the world....I (and others on here) might not enjoy their music, but clearly they have a huge following so good luck to them.
Success doesn't equal quality any more. This brings us back to how many current big selling acts can you name that are actually any good? Or which ones do you like? My answer sheet is largely blank. If I ever catch a snippet of what band is number one in the charts I tend to wince at how poor the music is.
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Re: how's yr oil pack? / The World Vs. MSP!

Post by olan »

runcible wrote:
olan wrote:I'm always surprised at how successful the MSP are, but then it takes all sorts to make the world....I (and others on here) might not enjoy their music, but clearly they have a huge following so good luck to them.
Success doesn't equal quality any more. This brings us back to how many current big selling acts can you name that are actually any good? Or which ones do you like? My answer sheet is largely blank. If I ever catch a snippet of what band is number one in the charts I tend to wince at how poor the music is.
Apart from a couple of brief intervals (Punk, Stone Roses, etc) I can't recall success ever equaling quality in the charts. I'm not old enough to remember the Stones and Wings' output left me scarred for life as far as the Beatles are concerned. For me, the best period in terms of quality music getting into the chart was the 1979-1982 post-punk/new wave period. The 1989-1991 indie dance thing comes a close second (if we blot out The Farm and The Soup Dragons).
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Re: how's yr oil pack? / The World Vs. MSP!

Post by Laz69 »

olan wrote: The Soup Dragons
Aww c'mon... they were actually a good band. Its always the worst song that everyone remembers them by... a bit unfair!
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Re: how's yr oil pack? / The World Vs. MSP!

Post by helterskelter »

I liked the Soup Dragons last couple of lps including I'm Free - also check out his stuff post SD - think its High Fidelity - top, top lp and eps to check out there with lots of Indian vibes, psych & good to my ears!
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