One last shot at who wrote/sang/played what on SOC & PP

It's fairly unlikely you'd have made it here without ever having heard of Jason's previous incarnation. So here you go, talk away...

Moderators: sunny, runcible, MODLAB

Post Reply
twentysixdollars
Known user
Posts: 1319
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: United States
Contact:

One last shot at who wrote/sang/played what on SOC & PP

Post by twentysixdollars »

Greetings all. Once again I must apologize for my rather intermittent presence on these boards lately. By week's end things should be remedied quite a bit. (Runcible, if you're reading this, a letter is coming, and if not necessarily yet addressing all the topics we've touched on, at least some of them!)

But I thought I'd recommence discussion in this forum by making one last desperate try at working out and codifying who's responsible for what on the first two Spacemen 3 albums. I've asked this before but I think I know a little better now. Your guesses and contributions are welcome. I'm also curious as to who picked which cover versions to use/steal. I generally suspect Peter chose most of them.

First of all vocals. Jason sings all of Sound of Confusion - doesn't he? Runcible says it's Peter on Mary Anne but it doesn't sound like him at all. Peter on only Transparent Radiation, Ode to Street Hassle, and Call the Doctor, as well as Feel So Good, on PP.

Second of all lead guitar. Did Peter ever play lead guitar on the first two albums?

As for songwriting, here are my guesses and some comments.

Losing Touch With My Mind - Peter?
Amen - Collaboration or mostly Jason?
2:35 - Lyrics definitely by Jason. Who set it to the Citadel riff?
OD Catastrophe - I say all Peter. He attributes the TV Eye theft to Jason, which I think is nonsense - he also says that "OD Catastrophe"/"TV Catastrophe" was the very first thing he wrote, possibly before meeting Jason.

I think Peter picked all the covers. As well as Transparent Radiation.

Take Me to the Other Side - Music Jason, lyrics Peter?
Walkin' With Jesus - chorus by Peter, everything else by Jason.
Ode to Street Hassle - Duh.
Ecstasy Symphony - Double duh.
Feel So Good - Mostly Peter?
Things'll Never Be the Same - Jason. Doesn't sound like him, but he plays it live...was Peter involved?
Come Down Easy - who takes credit for this? I really couldn't say. Probably Peter..."shake it babe" doesn't sound very Jason at all.
Call the Doctor - Peter. Any Jason involvement? No?

Others in dispute: Suicide - Peter attributes it to Jason (sometimes - other times he calls Jason's credit 'nominal'), and I think Jason attributes it to Peter?
nasty
Known user
Posts: 127
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am

Post by nasty »

not much to add really but Peter once told me that he wrote Call the Doctor loosely around the JJ Cale song of the same name.

I agree with runcible re Pete's vocals on Mary Anne and Jason's vocals/credits for TMTTOS... IMO come down easy sounds very Jason in terms of lyrics and rhythm - with ref to previous discussion around Jason's "I put a spike into my vein" line, "Shake it babe" sits well with me also.
Starfish
Known user
Posts: 1189
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: MidWest, UK

Post by Starfish »

I always thought that Call The Doctor was loosely based on the Stones' Sister Morphine
runcible
Site Admin
Posts: 5443
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: Yorkshire, England

Post by runcible »

Easier to let Pete put the record straight here...

twentysixdollars orginally wrote:
I'm also curious as to who picked which cover versions to use/steal. I generally suspect Peter chose most of them.

First of all vocals. Jason sings all of Sound of Confusion - doesn't he? Runcible says it's Peter on Mary Anne but it doesn't sound like him at all. Peter on only Transparent Radiation, Ode to Street Hassle, and Call the Doctor, as well as Feel So Good, on PP.
yup - I only sang from 'Feel so good' on WWJ 12" onwards.........
I had sung on that and ' that's just fine' before S.O.C , but Jason sings all the songs on that LP -even those I wrote .

Second of all lead guitar. Did Peter ever play lead guitar on the first two albums?
not really . sort of on Rollercoaster -long version - I play that 'sort-of' solo - but No - Strictly Jase did most of it .

As for songwriting, here are my guesses and some comments.
Losing Touch With My Mind - Peter?
- yes

Amen - Collaboration or mostly Jason?
- All lyrics already extant in two trad. pieces Amen + I think from memory ........hmmmmmm......some song Dylan did on one of his first couple of l.p.'s

2:35 - Lyrics definitely by Jason. Who set it to the Citadel riff?
totally Jason - the Citadel riff was on Losing Touch , which I wrote entirely .

OD Catastrophe - I say all Peter. He attributes the TV Eye theft to Jason, which I think is nonsense - he also says that "OD Catastrophe"/"TV Catastrophe" was the very first thing he wrote, possibly before meeting Jason.
musicwise , yes I had that from age 14 ish . ....... Lyrically , TOTALLY Jason...........sorry matey.......
Jason used to sing Iggy/Stooges lyrics to a lot of our early tunes while looking for his own to replace them with .

I think Peter picked all the covers. As well as Transparent Radiation.
true .

Take Me to the Other Side - Music Jason, lyrics Peter?
more complex than that . lets just say it was about 50/50 .

Walkin' With Jesus - chorus by Peter, everything else by Jason.
yes

Ode to Street Hassle - Duh.
Well , yes - my work , but its BASED on Street Hassle by Lou Reed , right.......

Ecstasy Symphony - Double duh.
you'd be surprised.........what was all that symphony in E stuff where Jason was trying to claim that stuff as his own work.......

Feel So Good - Mostly Peter?
Jason music / both of us Lyrics .

Things'll Never Be the Same - Jason. Doesn't sound like him, but he plays it live...was Peter involved?
not really . I had a part in the music - which was originally very different .

Come Down Easy - who takes credit for this? I really couldn't say. Probably Peter..."shake it babe" doesn't sound very Jason at all. well....wrong again....actually VERY Jason.......totally his work - great song -especially those "shake it babe"s .........

Call the Doctor - Peter. Any Jason involvement? No?
Well , he played sterling guitar on it , + organ , but I wrote it.



Others in dispute: Suicide - Peter attributes it to Jason (sometimes - other times he calls Jason's credit 'nominal'), and I think Jason attributes it to Peter?

Hunh - you are totally wrong here . I attribute it to me , the credit says us both . Jason insisted he had co-written Revolution (yes....) , Suicide and If I remember right , How does it feel.

to cut a long.............basically I was fairly strong-armed into giving Jason credit on Suicide + he would drop his claim on writing the other songs . It was one of several such situations that brought you ................................Spiritualized ........

I don't know why he would de-claim it now , but , once someone starts pulling that sort of thing it leaves a particularly rank taste in your mouth .

This occurred on several occasions - even taking my (scrapped) lyrics to a song claiming "prove that YOU wrote it " -knowing it was impossible to do so................. - I had trusted him as a friend and had'nt seen the need to pre-copyright stuff.

It's really hard to go further in a relationship after that sort of experience .

Jason saw it as a betrayal that I said we could'nt go on splitting everything 50/50 if he was'nt going to write any songs (which he had'nt) . I saw it as fair & just motivation for him . It would've been a sham to have done anything else . anyway.................thats where the main seam of discontent lay then.
nasty
Known user
Posts: 127
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am

Post by nasty »

.... so you're pretty much bang on then 26 :wink:
twentysixdollars
Known user
Posts: 1319
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by twentysixdollars »

That was nice of Peter to reply - and nice of you to bring the questions to him and post his responses, Runcible.

It seems I was completely wrong about Suicide, but you can blame that on Ian G. It was his account that Jason brought in the two-note riff which I assumed constituted authorship. He also said that it was Peter who said so. He also said that the song was credited to "Rev/Vega/Kember/Pierce", so I guess I shouldn't have believed him!

But Peter's reply begs a further question. Simply put, Who played what? On PP and SOC it's pretty straightforward - Jason's guitar is easily recognizable. I also assume that he's the one that played the acoustic guitar on several tracks, although I might be wrong. I'm not sure why I've made that assumption besides the knowledge that Jason did in fact once own an acoustic guitar.

On Playing With Fire it's a particular mystery. I think there's several songs that Jason's not on, and several that Peter's not on. If they are I'd be interested in what it is they're contributing.

Songs I think Jason's not on:
Honey
Let Me Down Gently

Songs I think Peter's not on:
Come Down Softly...
So Hot
Lord Can You Hear Me (? - Is that Peter's distorted guitar in the chorus?)
runcible
Site Admin
Posts: 5443
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: Yorkshire, England

Post by runcible »

Over to Pete again. I wonder if the acoustic mentioned is the same one Charlie Pritchard tried to flog for £13k recently!

It seems I was completely wrong about Suicide, but you can blame that on Ian G. It was his account that Jason brought in the two-note riff which I assumed constituted authorship. He also said that it was Peter who said so. He also said that the song was credited to "Rev/Vega/Kember/Pierce", so I guess I shouldn't have believed him!
Yeah......wrong credit.....
But Jason has always twisted anything to suit him . He has talked to Erik , cos I've seen some strange bullshit he told him.
it's a shame . Jason was very cool, until the £ + $ meant more than the music .
I loved him like a brother. Oh well. Goes to show how wrong you can be.
I take at least half the blame. After all - to work w/ these people was my decision. And my mistake apparently.
Ditto Johnnie + Mark Refoy - who both thought they should have equal say to me in S3 - regardless of who had done what for years before. It's on their conscience I guess -( probably not !!
Unfortunately - and Jason may believe whatever- I brought this riff AND change in from scratch. I even rehearsed it w/ Bain + Roswell before Jason even heard it - by chance...........
From what I've seen of Erik's book, he reproduces blatant lies about me + my parents without a blink or a check-up. I helped him extensively - even with the publisher. But I guess that’s the price of infamy.


But Peter's reply begs a further question. Simply put, Who played what? On PP and SOC it's pretty straightforward - Jason's guitar is easily recognizable. I also assume that he's the one that played the acoustic guitar on several tracks,
Yes - any guitar of skill is his, any of fuzz./tremelo is mine. Jason has long been lazy. He’s capable of much more IMO. Perhaps the same could be said of me? He had the talent, I had the direction + drive. Maybe a touch of talent somewhere in there.........

although I might be wrong. I'm not sure why I've made that assumption besides the knowledge that Jason did in fact once own an acoustic guitar.
Yes - he had a beat up thing, but the studio had better ones -matching pair of 12 + 6 string things. That’s what he used. He also had a Burns bass he used to play a lot of the bass on Perfect Prescription. More than one night, we'd let P. Bain go after a torment of crap takes, for Jason to nail it in one.
I play bass on Losing touch .......Pete Bain says cos I couldn’t figure a guitar line.Funny - cos I wrote that song & play guitar as well as his bass. There have been other occasions (in Spectrum) where Pete couldn’t work out shit to play, for Will to step in & play gob-smacking bass. See Forever Alien LP - which Bain said was "too electronic for the bass to work " . Have you seen/heard live tapes of the tour Will played bass on of that LP? Its great..............Black Cat, Washington is in circulation.


On Playing With Fire it's a particular mystery. I think there's several songs that Jason's not on, and several that Peter's not on. If they are I'd be interested in what it is they're contributing.
Jason plays on practically all my songs till the split . I didn’t play on his - because he'd lay down obvious "sonic" parts before. There was little for me to do but ask why ?

Songs I think Jason's not on:
Honey
Let Me Down Gently
- True.............

Songs I think Peter's not on:
Come Down Softly...
So Hot
Lord Can You Hear Me (? - Is that Peter's distorted guitar in the chorus?)
No - this was after the writing argument + it was plain that I couldn’t trust Jason. He'd lie + say anything to suit, and there was little to prove differently.
He used the lyrics I wrote to "Billy Whizz" - when I noticed, he said ‘prove it......’ knowing it was impossible since he was in sole possession of my discarded lyric..............nice. There’s a great old film - have I mentioned it before? Called 'Dance of the Red Shoes '- I think.
In short , a student goes to see his much respected teacher conduct a ballet, to realise he had stolen most of it from his own work ..................upon going to the maitre of the ballet & complaining , the master said - you know how bad it feels to have your work stolen ? - imagine how low & worthless one must feel after the realisation one had to steal it ..........
I always felt it was like passing off someone else's soul as your own .....

I have no argument or hatred for Jason. I sent him a note recently congratulating him on his children & saying I didn’t hold any grudge & detailing all my communication details. Of course I heard nothing.

I guess I know what really happened - don’t expect any book to be truthful - from what I've seen its overpopulated with peoples selfish whinges, trying to re-write the embarrassments they brought in years gone by .

I have admiration for Jason's stick-to-it-ness. He's made an effort. More than can be said for some of the paltry "offspring" who despised me, but apparently didn’t see that as reason not to copy + follow my lead.
It’s long been confusing to me...............

Hope this is the info u need
Best regards
Yours,
Pete K .
Muscles
Known user
Posts: 642
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: Hollywood,California.
Contact:

Post by Muscles »

RUNCIBLE?

Do you take requests?

Can you get KEVIN SHIELDS on this line?

Can you channel SPIRITS? Please ask JIMI why he opted to VOMIT OUT?

Er Seriously can you ask MR.BOOM if he plans on making JASON and the IMPOSTERS pay with his NEW GUITAR DRIVEN SPECTRUM RELEASE? or will it be another EXCITING XYLOPHONE record?

tell him MUSCLES wants to know. :twisted:

And tell him I can also vouge for WILL'S SKILL on BASS VIBES...as he has lent his SUBSONICS to my songs!

ha ha!!

ALSO TELL HIM I HAVE MORE FRITOS FOR HIM IN L.A & A PORSCHE 928 V8 WAITING UPON HIS RETURN.

WE CAN GO ON A SPIKE RUN. :wink:
Ian Goodchild
Known user
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: Northampton, England

Post by Ian Goodchild »

It seems I was completely wrong about Suicide, but you can blame that on Ian G. It was his account that Jason brought in the two-note riff which I assumed constituted authorship. He also said that it was Peter who said so. He also said that the song was credited to "Rev/Vega/Kember/Pierce", so I guess I shouldn't have believed him!

$26, thanks for that. Good point scoring. Perhaps you should go back and read that thread where I said 'Yes, sorry, I was wrong. It is Kember/Pierce' Maybe I was thinking about Che. But, I stand by my comment that 'Suicide' was Jason's. Why?

I think my 'confusion' stemmed from actually hearing about the creation of this song from the people who were involved. With regards to the 'who created Suicide' thing, in 1993 I was given a taped interview to transcribe, with Pete/Sonic Boom, which was intended to cover the 'Playing with Fire' era for Outer Limits #3, which as you know, never happened. The main thrust of the interview was that Jason 'didn't give a fuck' (Pete's words) about 'Playing with Fire', and that he had to continually chide Jason to get him to put his compositions on tape/in the studio. I also heard - explicity and unequivocally - that 'Suicide' was Jason's baby. Maybe it was a Jason demo, that Sonic added onto. I don't know and I don't care. I heard ON TAPE, Pete saying that Suicide was Jason's effort, and because it was so blatantly a Suicide rip-off (and the rest of Spacemen 3 were bemused that this was 'Jason's big new song'), Sonic was keen to get the 'This song is dedicated to Alan Vega and Martin Rev...Suicide' intro onto the LP in some form or another.

That is absolutely all I have to say on this. The words 'different' and 'viewpoints' spring to mind.
twentysixdollars
Known user
Posts: 1319
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by twentysixdollars »

No offence was intended Ian. Actually I was hoping you'd read this thread so that I could verify that it was you that had in fact said that, hoping you'd elaborate. I was hoping as well I hadn't simply made it up or misattributed it. But the comment about 'the rest of Spacemen 3' being bemused sounds odd, since, well, the rest of Spacemen 3 was Will Carruthers at this point. By the time Playing With Fire was released they were only vaguely a band.

I will comment on the rest soon. But again big thank-yous are owed to Runcible and to Peter for their contributions. In light of what's been said and what I've been thinking lately I've finally shifted over to the camp that aches for a reunion. Jason is at the laziest he's ever been and clearly seems to be out of ideas; christ, he's barely even playing guitar anymore. And we're still awaiting the next 'guitar-based' Spectrum LP.
clewsr
Known user
Posts: 1983
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am

Post by clewsr »

a reunion would be great; they could go on all the 80's tours with the Bangles and China Crisies.
hardhat
New user
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: The Sun

Post by hardhat »

Muscles wrote:RUNCIBLE?

Do you take requests?
Apparently only from the sane.
Muscles
Known user
Posts: 642
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: Hollywood,California.
Contact:

Post by Muscles »

GIVE IT TIME MONSIEUR SOFTPOOP!

RUNCY! has to go over to KEMBER'S and give him the latest COPY!

"just a little patience..." AXEL ROSE

PETE will soon be MOTHERFUCKING Jason and The Imposters!!! again.

Just hang in there...
Post Reply