The Stooges versus Stooges Ripoffs

For new sounds, old sounds and favourite sound discussion...

Moderators: sunny, BzaInSpace, runcible, spzretent

Post Reply
twentysixdollars
Known user
Posts: 1319
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: United States
Contact:

The Stooges versus Stooges Ripoffs

Post by twentysixdollars »

As Runcible already knows I'm no fan of the Stooges. I think they're grossly overrated; the MC5, I'd say, did the Really Loud spiel better and with more panache, and the VU had the proto-punk savagery worked out with better poetry, some disputable but present avant-garde credentials, actual melodies, and less addlepated pretension. Even their trademark "primitivism" is pretty lazy-sounding for 1969, given that the Troggs had been doing it winkingly as early as '64. So that leaves Iggy and company with their long, winding psych numbers as their primary distinguishing characteristic, and you'll pardon me for thinking they sound like the Doors. So that brings me to this question.

Is it just me, or are a great many Stooges rip-offs better than the originals? Spacemen 3 certainly did a number. I think OD Catastrophe is more compelling than TV Eye even if the lyric is a bit more contrived, because Jason's vocal is so powerful and there's no pointless soloing. This is hard to gauge though given that TV Eye would be close to perfect if Iggy weren't such an active irritant in the midsection (before the shouts of Brother!).

I guess the basic issue at hand is what you all generally think of the Stooges.

A related question: If the Spacers' OD Catastrophe turned up in a movie somewhere and somehow ended up getting noticed or even played on the radio, do you suspect that Peter would probably be sued over it? That, more than any of his other steals ("I Love You" and "Ode to Street Hassle" included) is the closest to the original, I'd say.

I'm writing this at work. It's been a busy patch these last few weeks; It may take a few days before I can read or respond here, but I'll try.
Starfish
Known user
Posts: 1189
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: MidWest, UK

Post by Starfish »

The Stooges did have a habit of sagging a bit during albums, but the first Stooges album I got was the No Fun compilation, which just had the best bits from the first two LPs - and was/is fantastic.
Loose never fails to raise the hairs on the back of my neck in the same way that MC5's live intro to Ramblin Rose does.
When I was younger and more elastic, I used to throw myself around the dancefloors to Loose and Down On The Street.

i do find it odd how some elements of plagiarism go unpunished while others seem to get shafted beyond reason.
Carter USM had to hand over all the royalties from one song because it had three words used in a particular order (Goodbye Ruby Tuesday) in one of the verses, yet the Soup Dragons, I believe, got away with I'm Free, even claiming a writing credit.
Neither band I care for at all, by the way, but just examples of inconsistency.

I could never understand why Kember/Pierce got the credits for OD Catastrophe. I think another very close rip-off/pastiche/homage is their Come Down Easy (aka Dylan's In My Time Of Dying - or is it a Guthrie track?)
spzretent
Site Admin
Posts: 5587
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: Motor City

Post by spzretent »

I couldn't disagree more $26.
The reason the Stooges get all the accolades over the MC5 is easy. Iggy! MC5 were just a bunch of hairy, loud suburban Detroiters who wrote some great songs/anthems.
While the Stooges had a mesmerizing front man. And he still is.
This has a bit of the which came first? The chicken or the egg argument.
Maybe not. Without the Stooges where would all the imitators be?
runaway
Known user
Posts: 470
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: the shadows

Post by runaway »

Wrong.
The Stooges were dynamic and dangerous.
It's ironic that $26 mentions the Troggs as predecessors of the Stooges sound; the Velvets owe everything but their arty pretentiousness to that particular band. Need proof? Listen to With A Girl Like You.
twentysixdollars
Known user
Posts: 1319
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by twentysixdollars »

I guess this stems from the fact that the Iggy the Wildman image is pretty tiresome to me. I'll admit, even if he pulled that sort of thing today he'd scare a lot of people, even though it's been absorbed into the 'alternative' lexicon: Marylin Manson in particular has copied his stage act almost exactly, but tossed out much of the motion and thrown in a lot more homoeroticism. But I never saw the Stooges live, I've been to a few disappointing Iggy shows, and so ultimately on a strictly musical level I find the Stooges deficient. All of their LPs have a great first side and a dull second one (especially Fun House, which just completely runs out of steam after Dirt). Whereas on Kick Out The Jams, for example, nearly every song has become a classic, including the covers, you really rarely hear punk bands covering, say, Fun House, although a few have tried their hands at LA Blues.

The MC5 have perhaps not aged as well because their politics sound silly in retrospect especially by comparison to the baby-let-me-stick-it-in-ya tenor of their lyrics. But strip off the opening speech on KOTJ as well as the nonsense around Motor City Is Burning and what you're left with are Stooges songs with a more powerful sound, slightly more clever lyrics ("yeah I start to sweat and now my shirt's all wet, ain't it baby?" - I can't help but smile) and, generally, stronger riffs ("Borderline" being just about the most indelible there is.)

To say nothing of the fact that Loose=Kick Out the Jams. Just try singing the lyrics to the latter to the backing for the former. I can't be bothered to check if they're in the same key but I do believe they are.

Starfish: In My Time of Dyin'/Jesus Gonna Make Up My Dyin' Bed is a traditional probably from the early 1800s. It's Irish-American. I don't know why it's so often attributed to Dylan - I guess he recorded the most famous version to rock listeners - but I've heard lots of better ones, earlier ones, ones even closer to Come Down Easy than the one on the first Dylan LP. As such it wasn't likely that they'd be sued. Dylan wrote new lyrics for traditional tunes all the time. "It's Alright Ma, I'm Only Bleeding" is one of the more famous ones.

I think you're much more likely to get sued if a song's a hit with a lot of exposure. OD Catastrophe has slipped under the radar because no-one outside a fairly small circle has heard it. But if it got out in a movie or something I assure you Mr Osterberg would come down on Peter (and perhaps Jason) like the wrath of God.
Ian

Post by Ian »

twentysixdollars wrote:I think you're much more likely to get sued if a song's a hit with a lot of exposure. OD Catastrophe has slipped under the radar because no-one outside a fairly small circle has heard it. But if it got out in a movie or something I assure you Mr Osterberg would come down on Peter (and perhaps Jason) like the wrath of God.
I think Jason's the more likely target, assuming Peter's account of him spontaneously singing the TV Eye lyrics over Peter's OD Catastrophe music is true. The music is similar, but I think there's enough of a difference to get away with it. TV Eye is based as much around that opening riff as it is the one chord thing, whereas OD Catastrophe centres around the octave-separated picking of the main note. Peter's been pretty honest about the occasions where he has stolen wholesale, but he describes the music to OD Catastrophe as "totally different" to TV Eye - a slight exaggeration, but I don't think it was a deliberate lift.

Love,

Ian
Starfish
Known user
Posts: 1189
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: MidWest, UK

Post by Starfish »

Ian wrote: Peter's been pretty honest about the occasions where he has stolen wholesale, but he describes the music to OD Catastrophe as "totally different" to TV Eye
Vanilla Ice claimed the Ice Ice Baby riff was totally different to Under Pressure.
spzretent
Site Admin
Posts: 5587
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: Motor City

Post by spzretent »

twentysixdollars wrote:I guess this stems from the fact that the Iggy the Wildman image is pretty tiresome to me. I'll admit, even if he pulled that sort of thing today he'd scare a lot of people, even though it's been absorbed into the 'alternative' lexicon:.
Every Iggy show I have been to has been amazing w/most of the material played form the Stooges lps thank god.

The Stooges show last summer was incredible. Once you can deal with the fact he is 50+ and just get into it its unreal.

For those who care its coming out on DVD sometime this month in N. America.
ursa
Known user
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: runcibles bathtub
Contact:

Post by ursa »

i have seen text claiming in my time of dying to bukka white....is that false info?
this reminds me of a television verses the voidoids conversation i had once.it was the concencus that chicks liked television,and guys liked richard hell.exept for the hardcore chicks thought richard was sexy and thought tom verlaine to be a nancy boy.
i have noticed that chicks loooove the stooges,but dont quite get the mc5.
too messy for them.people who usually like to move when they hear music go for the stooges,and those who want to just sit and listen or drive fast put on the mc5.
so there!
i live on the bottom of the soul
runcible
Site Admin
Posts: 5443
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: Yorkshire, England

Post by runcible »

Interesting points made by all. But...

1. The Stooges guitar sound is, IMHO obviously, without doubt the greatest electric guitar sound ever achieved. Check Real Cool Time (the last 45 seconds provided Pete and Jason with the core blueprint for early Spacemen), Loose and the incredible end of TV Eye and somehow prove me wrong about this. It's impossible.

2. Loose. Nothing else to say here. The greatest punk rock track ever recorded. Ever.

3. Iggy Pop. One of the most charismatic and incredible frontmen ever seen in the history of rock 'n' roll.

Those 3 arguments are enough for me and many others. I do agree with 26 on his opinion that Stooges albums can run out of steam. I don't like much of the second side of Funhouse when the first is among the most exhilerating of any album ever made. Down On The Street was my introduction to the Stooges and it reigns among the most life-changing musical moments I can ever remember.

Reading back over the thread I can't think of anything else to say at this time on this, or even regard anything else relevant. I've reread what I've written and it's got me convinced anyway. Oh - I like some MC5 too but talk about overrated and half sided albums! My God - Kick Out The Jams is so hit and miss - title track, Ramblin Rose, I Want You Right Now and Come Together are great but... Well, most of the rest passes me by as just OK.
Juzba
Known user
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: Europe

Post by Juzba »

Is it just me, or have people completely forgotton The Sonics?
sly saxon
Known user
Posts: 256
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: where everybody knows your name

Post by sly saxon »

No - I will NEVER forget the Sonics.

If you are all quick (ie before Saturday 13 March), you can listen to the first installment of http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/r2music/doc ... punk.shtml which may be a bit of a box ticker, nevertheless means you can listen to the music, instead of just typing about it (and if you haven't by any chance ever heard the Sonics' Louie Louie - look out). :twisted:
It's all happening!
mbv
Known user
Posts: 69
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 2:18 pm
Location: London, England

Post by mbv »

Even their trademark "primitivism" is pretty lazy-sounding for 1969, given that the Troggs had been doing it winkingly as early as '64.
you can 'blame' that on John Cale then, I'm certain they sounded fucking primitive when they were writing and jamming the songs in a garage.
So that leaves Iggy and company with their long, winding psych numbers as their primary distinguishing characteristic, and you'll pardon me for thinking they sound like the Doors.
I reckon Iggy would have done a distinguishing shit (for dollars of course) if Jac Holzman would have deemed it profitable....
I think OD Catastrophe is more compelling than TV Eye.....
OD Catastrophe is a big stinking lazy turd of a song, how can you even compare it with TV Eye?
I'm no fan of the Stooges. I think they're grossly overrated; the MC5, I'd say, did the Really Loud spiel better and with more panache...
you should check out Iggy's mix of Raw Power (the original Bowie mix is shite compared with what Iggy and Williamson wanted.), if you want to hear loud, in yer face, sonic, melodic, fuck-off guitar playing. Brother James Williamson!
"Hot damn! Let us rumble, keep going and don't slow down ... lets have a little fun ..."
- Hunter S Thompson
twentysixdollars
Known user
Posts: 1319
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by twentysixdollars »

OD Catastrophe is a big stinking lazy turd of a song, how can you even compare it with TV Eye?
I like the quality of Jason's vocal. It just sounds more desperate, which suits the tone of the song. Admittedly, it goes on too long, but I do generally prefer three minutes of the Spacemen version to three minutes of TV Eye.
you should check out Iggy's mix of Raw Power (the original Bowie mix is shite compared with what Iggy and Williamson wanted.), if you want to hear loud, in yer face, sonic, melodic, fuck-off guitar playing. Brother James Williamson!
I have it; I think most people here do. Bowie's mix sounds a little like the MC5's second album without the tunes or the solos. Iggy's is a different story altogether - it's all guitar, for the most part, and to me Williamson isn't a terribly interesting guitarist (Runcie was right - with Asheton and overdubs the Stooges had an undeniably unique fuzz-based guitar tone. I guess that's their only distinguishing characteristic), so losing Asheton on lead was a pretty big loss indeed.

And in both versions side two is dreary. Just like the other Stooges albums!
runcible
Site Admin
Posts: 5443
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: Yorkshire, England

Re: The Stooges versus Stooges Ripoffs

Post by runcible »

twentysixdollars wrote: So that leaves Iggy and company with their long, winding psych numbers as their primary distinguishing characteristic, and you'll pardon me for thinking they sound like the Doors.
I meant to address this bit in my other post. Obviously I completely disagree - the Stooges greatest moment is the trio of the first 3 songs on Funhouse; all short bursts of energy as opposed to long and winding. I simply cannot imagine the excitement any Stooges fan must have felt playing those for the first time. Down on the Street was my first Stooges experience and I can still recall it vividly. Today it sounds as incredible as ever.

As for the Doors comparison.... you've said this before, and I'm still left scratching my head. I can't think of much more different sounding bands - to me its like comparing a seagull to a potato. I know Iggy was a Morrison fan but I see absolutely no resemblance in the music.
spzretent
Site Admin
Posts: 5587
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: Motor City

Post by spzretent »

Thank god he left the self indulgent idiotic poetry out if he was that influenced. And the farfisa too!
will this do?
Known user
Posts: 1036
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: Somewhere in the South of England

Post by will this do? »

In fact, I'm just listening (right now) to the Radio 2 Show that Sly Saxon linked to earlier, and it says a whole lotta stuff about the Stooges, including Mister Osterberg stating quite clearly that Mystic Eyes by Them is the blueprint 2-chord tone poem freak-out that launched the whole thing. (And as I type, Reg Presley is relating the story of hearing Wild Thing on the radio at the building site he was working on). I think it'll be wiped on Saturday, so...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/r2music/doc ... l?focuswin
will this do?
Known user
Posts: 1036
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: Somewhere in the South of England

probably out of sequence - it took sa long time to write

Post by will this do? »

I’d meant to come on here to respond to the VU thread that $26 started, but this seems to be essentially the same discussion, so:

It seems fairly obvious to everyone which were the bands that invented the punk sound – the Troggs (and you’ve all chosen the wrong song lyric BTW – “your pants are low and your hips are showin’…if you knew me like I know you girl,
your knees would bend and your hair would curl…you fill me up with this thick temptation” from “I Can’t Control Myself” is so small town filthy even now – in a country where sex had only just been invented (3-4 years after Philip Larkin’s Annus Mirabilis) it must have been incendiary…http://starling.rinet.ru/music/temp/troggs.html has a pretty good essay about the life and work of Reg Presley & Co), Kinks (before they went all sophisticated), Yardbirds, the Sonics, blah blah blah…

I don’t think I said that VU were nothing but clever (incidentally I have no objection to cleverness, in rock or anywhere) – in fact the phrase I used (without drawing attention to is) was “clever-clever”, which is as different from mere cleverness as cheesy is from chalky…erm…. I first heard about VU from my old geology teacher (who knew a thing or two about rock – ahahaha), and so I associate them with a kind of 6th Form intellectualism, which I’m sure I will learn not to be so embarrassed about someday soon.

I hadn’t realised that the bulk of this “clever-clever” artsy baggage was forced upon them by Andy (although as I type this, I am reminded of Lou Pant’s (not to mention J Cale’s) solo work, none of which suggests to me a good night out – even the song called Rock n Roll is an essay in stiltedness – you can just tell it is words (and no amount of name checking Cadillacs and New York City can save a lyric which also containing the word “computations” IMHO) set to music. To coin a phrase, it was alright…(I went to see Cale at the RFH in ’92 – god knows why – I knew nothing of his work post VU, apart from “Songs for ‘Drella”, which I found tedious in to say he least…Reed’s tinnitus guitar ‘roaring’ like a distant motorway, the trademark ‘not singing, not rhyming lyrics’, Cale plonking at the Joanna or scraping away at his viola (an instrument whose chief virtue is that it burns for longer than a violin in an emergency) looking like Nick Cave’s dad.

The Underpant’s finest moments came, as in so much jazz music, by accident – the breakdown of “European Son”, the way the feedback cuts out momentarily in the second guitar break in “I heard her call my name”…the trouble is I can imagine them trying SOOOO hard to replicate that exact moment on stage, especially during that reunion in 1989 or whenever it was. White Light White Heat is their best album by the way.

Back to the Stooges, I think that it was the very dumbness that attracted me to them. We all knew that less was more – The Ramones had proved beyond any doubt that 3 chords were all one required. Now here was a record by a band that could manage with just 2 chords (I don’t think that I heard “fun house” until after I’d heard “sound of confusion” BTW). Lester Bangs (and I know that 100 years ago I castigated you, twentysix, for being apparently in thrall to Griel, Lester et al) hailed the Stooges as a return to the values of dumb plumbed previously by the likes of Question Mark & The Mysterians and the Count Five after the sophistication embodied in works by the likes of the Yardbirds (!).
The MC5…seems to me they were neither one thing nor the other. The imagery is spot on. The testimonial at the start of Kick out the Jams (which I definitely heard first after “revolution” five seconds just five seconds), rama lama fa fa gonna get high till the day I die…Thee Hypnotics entire output, Primal Scream’s eponymous album produced by “Sister Anne”.

Unfortunately they actually sound like a badly engineered Status Quo (I received this judgement from an impartial, unsuspecting listener to a live bootleg) or really fast Chuck Berry – but in all cases there is a kind of hairshirted nihilism to the revolution, and the lack of proper production values is part of this – none of this is bad in an of itself, obviously.

To use a favourite critical device (rhetorically irrefutable and so utterly valueless), Stooges could have written “Kick out the Jams”, but the Five couldn’t have written “Dog”…

I dunno – I think I’ve finished now – but I’m conscious that many of my opinions are couched in ignorance – I know what I’ve heard…and here it is

Nuggets lovely nuggets

Most stuff by Troggs and Yardbirds, and Sonics, and

Velvets – heard most stuff, but only really studied Greatest collections, White Light/Heat, and “& Nico”

Lou Pants solo – the stuff everyone’s heard, perfect day, songs for drella

Cale - “Fragments of a Rainy Season” the live best of that was issued when I saw him in ’92.

Stooges – lots of stuff

MC5 – live in France, KOTJ, best of MC5, Primal Scream, Come Down Heavy, Sound of Confusion.

Ramones – the first 4 albums
twentysixdollars
Known user
Posts: 1319
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by twentysixdollars »

I will reply to this soon. I've gotten a bit behind on this board given some work-related and personal issues.
will this do?
Known user
Posts: 1036
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: Somewhere in the South of England

Post by will this do? »

Are you back yet?
twentysixdollars
Known user
Posts: 1319
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by twentysixdollars »

Sorry - in all the excitement I lost sight of the thread.

Mark and I have been bandying about the idea of properly parsing the Who. Whatever conclusions we reach, and generally my opinion of them isn't favorable, their contributions to punk-rock as a sound alone are immeasurable, and My Generation and the various re-writes on their first LP of said tune are as deserving of the epithet 'proto-punk' as anything else. Frankly punk always seemed a genre named in retrospect, so it seems irrelevant to trace its evolution back to the sixties, because 'punk', it's generally agreed, refers to a conservative (that's right, Robert, boyo) movement of groups deliberately veering pop back the garage and to 1963. So in that respect The Stooges are no more a punk group than the Kingsmen, and no less.

The Velvets were much more rehearsed, and much more a professional R&B outfit, than they're given credit for. Their experimental tendencies were no more outlandish than those of their more popular contemporaries, if a bit harder to assimilate. Frankly Andy Warhol was their pure-pop conduit, not the other way around: their obliqueness attracted him, and his fame gave Lou, always the failed Tin Pan Alley troubador, some equally oblique sideroad onto the charts. I think the third album completes the picture and it warrants further research. The bitterness of Loaded cannot conceal the heartfelt tendency to eulogize Chuck Berry before his day - and "Rock and Roll" is only as stilted as "School Day", and, if a bit inarticulate by Lou's standards, evidentally mostly unironic. The same cannot be said of "Sweet Jane" which is great anyway. The undercurrent of parody on Loaded probably confirms your 'clever-clever' appraisal, but Lou's coyness and desire to avoid embarassment by means of ironic distance even when being nakedly ingenuous (note the nasty turnaround on "Pale Blue Eyes") means that the any given VU record plays at at least two degrees of camp, and it is the contradictory wrongnesses, not their 'influence' or 'attitude' or even 'intention' that makes the records compelling, intellectually at least.

Lou Reed's solo catalogue is too necessarily vast (by means of his sheer odds-breaking longevity) to be summed up in a paragraph. A lot of it's rotten, because he didn't have anyone to mitigate his more indulgent tendencies (or at least no-one with a vested interest, namely, co-credit) nor his desire to be disliked, or rather liked despite himself. He has agreed to lousy ideas in that interest, and he is rarely clear-eyed. At his best, which is generally his least pretentious, his conversational poetry, solid sense of fifties nostalgia, frustrated by his technical limitations, make for fascinating, intermittently moving records.

MC5 are in a different league than either the Stooges - dumb for dumb's sake, and therefore irritating for simultaneous overambition ("Now!I!Want!To!Make!Some!Sort!Of - babababababah...MINIMALIST STATEMENT! Yowl!") and the lack of mechanism or desire to pull it off - or the VU, for the above reasons. The MC5 are merely a good Really Loud rock band, philosophically straightforward, prone to writing marvelous riffs. Divorce them from their revolutionary politics - not only possible, recommended - and you get a dionysian dream, terrifying and humorous and sexy, matchstick-simple, technically adept. Kinda like the very early Who.
runaway
Known user
Posts: 470
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: the shadows

Post by runaway »

This is where my opinion differs immeasurably from $26's. Even if you disregard the context of the Stooges' first three releases and compare them on a music-only basis, they are still far more sonically impressive than anything the MC5 released at the same time. The MC5's sound still had unfortunate elements of the hippie-boogie-jam thing that the Stooges just completely cut through and laid to waste (on most of their songs). The presence of an enigmatic front man helped seal the deal but it was the raw distillation of rock energy and it's promise of danger that landed them their place with the immortals. How many bands have been spawned that were directly influenced by that "MC5 sound"?
twentysixdollars
Known user
Posts: 1319
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by twentysixdollars »

I don't know about 'hippie-boogie-jam' influences, but the MC5 were certainly a lot more derived from major-key, jump-blues-and-boogie-inspired African-American acts a la Bo Diddley, Chuck Berry, and Fats Domino, than the Stooges, whose sound owes much more to early-sixties white garage-band music, mostly British. I don't consider the Stooges' decision to exclude certain influences to be cutting through the hippie tripe, and in fact I consider their lack of bluesy antecedents something of a tragedy, since their songwriting might have been more consistent if their filler held more interest than the Lizard King ballads ("Ann", "We Will Fall".) The fact that fifties black pop held next to no interest for Iggy is yet another reason why I claim lack of interest in the Stooges, and a testament to the breadth of the MC5s turn-ons.

In other words, can you imagine being locked in your office for even a weekend, with nothing but the Stooges to listen to? If you listen to as many records as I do the monotony would be stomach-churning.
runaway
Known user
Posts: 470
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: the shadows

Post by runaway »

twentysixdollars wrote:

...In other words, can you imagine being locked in your office for even a weekend, with nothing but the Stooges to listen to? If you listen to as many records as I do the monotony would be stomach-churning.
And therein describes the foundation of our disagreement; the Stooges have no place in an office or with anyone who has already conformed to the limiting concept of the "weekend". Their importance lies in the moment that some nobody hears the opening measures of Down On The Street and their musical perspective is altered (maligned?) forever. It's instinctive and unquantifiable. Kind of like how Link Wray will always be better than the Beatles...
runcible
Site Admin
Posts: 5443
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: Yorkshire, England

Post by runcible »

twentysixdollars wrote:
In other words, can you imagine being locked in your office for even a weekend, with nothing but the Stooges to listen to? If you listen to as many records as I do the monotony would be stomach-churning.
Ha ha! The guy I started Runcible with many years ago (now running the more reggae-orientated but still excellent Starside Records) once said to me he'd be happy on a desert island with the 3 Stooges albums and nothing else...
Horrorflick
Known user
Posts: 359
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Contact:

Post by Horrorflick »

Wow, you guys really know lots of stuff... :roll:
twentysixdollars
Known user
Posts: 1319
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by twentysixdollars »

runaway wrote: And therein describes the foundation of our disagreement; the Stooges have no place in an office or with anyone who has already conformed to the limiting concept of the "weekend".
Careful, runaway: armchair philosophizing is tricky business and I like you pal and don't want you erring on the side of SpacemanRob. Anyway I always thought the appeal of the Stooges after-the-fact (say, in the eighties) was that they gave tailored-suit types the chance to be a little debauched - at at least, to pretend to be so - on a Saturday night. Ditto the Velvets, though.
Their importance lies in the moment that some nobody hears the opening measures of Down On The Street and their musical perspective is altered (maligned?) forever. It's instinctive and unquantifiable.
Strange. This is a phenomenon with which I have little intimacy. My first Stooges album was Fun House, which I got hold of (thirtysomething's mumble) years ago, and I distintctly remember the huge disappointment of the first tune. I was expecting something ferocious, needle-shredding, evil. What I got was a thin, mildly funky, mid-tempo and pretty low-volume bass-and-drums rumble. I remember thinking, "This is the cornerstone of the punk movement?" (Which, at least at the time, it was, since the punk types were disassociating themselves from the VU in light of the REM covers, the Dolls in light of Bowie, and the MC5 in light of hair metal). Loose was better, but I always thought it was a rewrite of Kick Out the Jams. Still do.
Horrorflick wrote: Oh, how very eyerollsome. Pshaw!
runaway
Known user
Posts: 470
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: the shadows

Post by runaway »

twentysixdollars wrote:
runaway wrote: And therein describes the foundation of our disagreement; the Stooges have no place in an office or with anyone who has already conformed to the limiting concept of the "weekend".
Careful, runaway: armchair philosophizing is tricky business and I like you pal and don't want you erring on the side of SpacemanRob. Anyway I always thought the appeal of the Stooges after-the-fact (say, in the eighties) was that they gave tailored-suit types the chance to be a little debauched - at at least, to pretend to be so - on a Saturday night. Ditto the Velvets, though.
Their importance lies in the moment that some nobody hears the opening measures of Down On The Street and their musical perspective is altered (maligned?) forever. It's instinctive and unquantifiable.
Strange. This is a phenomenon with which I have little intimacy. My first Stooges album was Fun House, which I got hold of (thirtysomething's mumble) years ago, and I distintctly remember the huge disappointment of the first tune. I was expecting something ferocious, needle-shredding, evil. What I got was a thin, mildly funky, mid-tempo and pretty low-volume bass-and-drums rumble. I remember thinking, "This is the cornerstone of the punk movement?" (Which, at least at the time, it was, since the punk types were disassociating themselves from the VU in light of the REM covers, the Dolls in light of Bowie, and the MC5 in light of hair metal). Loose was better, but I always thought it was a rewrite of Kick Out the Jams. Still do.
Horrorflick wrote: Oh, how very eyerollsome. Pshaw!

What!? All that and you're not gonna challenge my contention that Link Wray is better than the Beatles??!!!
twentysixdollars
Known user
Posts: 1319
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by twentysixdollars »

A lot of things were better than the Beatles. Link Wray wasn't one of them, but I like the sentiment.
runcible
Site Admin
Posts: 5443
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: Yorkshire, England

Post by runcible »

twentysixdollars wrote:
runaway wrote:
Their importance lies in the moment that some nobody hears the opening measures of Down On The Street and their musical perspective is altered (maligned?) forever. It's instinctive and unquantifiable.
Strange. This is a phenomenon with which I have little intimacy. My first Stooges album was Fun House, which I got hold of (thirtysomething's mumble) years ago, and I distintctly remember the huge disappointment of the first tune. I was expecting something ferocious, needle-shredding, evil. What I got was a thin, mildly funky, mid-tempo and pretty low-volume bass-and-drums rumble. I remember thinking, "This is the cornerstone of the punk movement?" (Which, at least at the time, it was, since the punk types were disassociating themselves from the VU in light of the REM covers, the Dolls in light of Bowie, and the MC5 in light of hair metal). Loose was better, but I always thought it was a rewrite of Kick Out the Jams. Still do.
Ta for that little trade of opinions.

Rarely have I sided so completely with one and so incompletely with the other.

Part 1: I WAS that nobody. I was into Loop, Spacemen 3, discovered the Stones, Pretty Things and a lot of other music in the previous 18 months and really started a total musical obsession which is as healthy today, a good 16 years later. A guy at work, later my business partner, handed me an import CD of Funhouse and said he absolutely guaranteed at least the 1st 3 tracks would blow me away, so I bought it. Today I can say there isn't an opening of any album ever made that has hit me like Funhouse did the first time I played it.

Part 2: What I got that first play was something ferocious, needle-shredding, evil. Thick, mid tempo, massive bass and drum, and it sure as hell rumbled. The first time the chorus (as such) kicked in is something I will never forget - playing it today produces a similiar effect. Loose is even better. TV Eye features the best distorted guitar in history. And you know? I genuinely thought about all the years I'd been an avid fan of Uk punk such as the Pistols, the Damned, the Uk Subs and The Clash, and I actually DID think on that first listening that this was where it all started. The cornerstone as it were.

I like Kick Out The Jams plus another couple (possibly more) tracks on that MC5 album, but although I loved the title song when I first heard it I was incredibly disappointed by the rest of the record... ...and still am.
Last edited by runcible on Mon Sep 06, 2004 9:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
will this do?
Known user
Posts: 1036
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: Somewhere in the South of England

Post by will this do? »

Horrorflick wrote:Wow, you guys really know lots of stuff... :roll:
Sorry...who asked you? If long winded quasi-intellectual deconstructions of sex music piss you off THAT much, then why did you come? You want the Radiohead website (Thom's sooo dreammy - when will they make another record as good as "Anyone can play guitar"?).

:roll: :roll:
appledelphy
Known user
Posts: 213
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: FISHING WITH JOHN!

Post by appledelphy »

I love all the mc5 records.. but in my opinion the only one that compete with funhouse (or half of the stooges) is high time! very underrated album.
- seems that even 26$ is holding back on his praise for that one..

luckily the stooges did a very bad job trying to copy mc5 and the doors.. :roll:

nothing like the funhouse when it comes to bringing back rosey cheeks to a pale hungover..(hmm but I guess a really embarrassing record would succeed there too?) :oops:
twentysixdollars
Known user
Posts: 1319
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by twentysixdollars »

I like High Time. but compared to the first two LPs it's uneven. All MC5 LPs are worth having, though, and that goes for a lot of the profusion of live stuff, quasi-bootleg and otherwise.
Muscles
Known user
Posts: 642
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: Hollywood,California.
Contact:

Post by Muscles »

THE MC5 suck cock!

I am a DETROITER by blood! and I can tell you that for a fact.

IGGY & THE STOOGES all the way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

worth a facking billion in prizes !

kick out the jams bitch!
twentysixdollars
Known user
Posts: 1319
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by twentysixdollars »

Muscles wrote:THE MC5 suck cock!
If you mean that as a prejorative, I'd say that though regarding the MC5 they're unsubstantiated rumors, it seems most people are positive that this statement is true about Mr Osterberg.
TheWarmth
Known user
Posts: 3959
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: Chicago, IL
Contact:

Post by TheWarmth »

Muscles wrote:THE MC5 suck cock!

I am a DETROITER by blood! and I can tell you that for a fact.

IGGY & THE STOOGES all the way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

worth a facking billion in prizes !

kick out the jams bitch!
This is hilarious! Iggy and the Stooges rule, but then you quote an Iggy solo song and the MC5. I thought MC5 sucked cock?
twentysixdollars
Known user
Posts: 1319
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by twentysixdollars »

I think what he meant to say was that Iggy is Kick Out the Jams' bitch. It's par for the course to confuse apostrophes with commas.

Now, Will This Do, where are you?
Post Reply